EB-1 wrote:
There are various obvious errors in the manual unrelated to the bit depth.
It may have been a rush job without proofreading.
EBH
I'm questioning that manual. Page 91 has some Spanish. There was a site that had a bunch of manuals in different languages. It kept adding more but no English for about 3 days and then someone posted it when it come out. Since the manual is not available at Canon USA I'm not sure this is the true Canon manual. We'll see what this page and the rest looks like when it's up at Canon's site.
InnomnateViem wrote:
Canon has committed a cardinal sin.
good technical writing shall be written in precise concise functional language without ambiguity. it would appear IMPO that there is more than one technical writer writing documents for the R5 and they did not coordinate their efforts which has introduced ambiguity across the various R5 documentation.
or, if there is only one author of theses R5 documents he/she is not a good technical writer. it also possible that something got lost in the translation. assuming of course that the documentation was originally written in Japaneses.
Maybe it is a kind of FUD that Canon is trying do ....
ronaldmayes wrote:
I agree for Landscape the 12 fps is not a big deal
I happened to want 12 fps for Birds in Flight, but in the R5 manual, page 452, read that to get 12 fps, many factors need to fall in line. Some of these include
..camera needs to be at room temp ***
..battery level at least 60% ****
..shutter speed 1/1000 or faster
..lens needs to be set to maximum aperture *****
..flicker reduction can't be on
..all RF and only certain EF lenses can be used
Quite a list. The items I've starred above could be a problem for me as I photograph songbirds at closer range and sometimes need depth of field. I am planning on 8 fps, if I buy this camera ...Show more →
Also must do before taking the picture
... Recite one secret chant backwards
... Carry a rabbit foot in the left pocket
... Step in small circles twice
... An finally trow salt over your shoulder
... Must repeat all of the above after 6 shoot taken
There seems to be a lot of limitations on the offering and half baked options . If someone has a lot of money to burn they might go for the R5. I think that system is not up to par yet with the Series 5 line up.
Just based on the fact we already know the "only 20MP" 1DXIII does 12-bit in ES, I'm about 99.9999999% confident that the R5/6 will drop to 12-bit in ES no matter how confusing the manuals/specs make it out to be with their broken English.
12-bit doesn't bother me for my work...I've yet to be able to find a shot it would matter in. What does bother me is how much DR the 1DXIII loses in ES. Where as the Sony A9 only loses a little DR when it is forced into 12-bit for 20FPS. But the 1DXIII's DR loss is really only till ISO 800 so in a way it doesn't bother me either as I'm shooting ISO 800 or above 90% of the time anyways.
Can't wait till we get some good DR testing and Sensor Scan Speed testing on the R5/6.
ronaldmayes wrote:
I agree for Landscape the 12 fps is not a big deal
I happened to want 12 fps for Birds in Flight, but in the R5 manual, page 452, read that to get 12 fps, many factors need to fall in line. Some of these include
..camera needs to be at room temp ***
..battery level at least 60% ****
..shutter speed 1/1000 or faster
..lens needs to be set to maximum aperture *****
..flicker reduction can't be on
..all RF and only certain EF lenses can be used
Quite a list. The items I've starred above could be a problem for me as I photograph songbirds at closer range and sometimes need depth of field. I am planning on 8 fps, if I buy this camera ...Show more → qc_mountain wrote:
Also must do before taking the picture
... Recite one secret chant backwards
... Carry a rabbit foot in the left pocket
... Step in small circles twice
... An finally trow salt over your shoulder
... Must repeat all of the above after 6 shoot taken
There seems to be a lot of limitations on the offering and half baked options . If someone has a lot of money to burn they might go for the R5. I think that system is not up to par yet with the Series 5 line up.
Francois.
The 5Ds/R does 5FPS (>50% or more charge) and the 5D IV does 7FPS (only slight reduction at lower charge). Neither of those is a fast as the 8FPS mechanical shutter mode of the R5. The 180 frame RAW buffer equivalent is nothing to sneeze at.
If it were not for the viral disease, I'd get the R5 even if it only had an 8FPS mode and none of the funky ES or partial ES.
based on the fact we already know the "only 20MP" 1DXIII does 12-bit in ES, I'm about 99.9999999% confident that the R5/6 will drop to 12-bit in ES no matter how confusing the manuals/specs make it out to be with their broken English.
an assumption or a guestimation?
the R5 does not have the same sensor as the 1DXIII.
InnomnateViem wrote:
an assumption or a guestimation?
the R5 does not have the same sensor as the 1DXIII.
Some reading the Canon Europe site that basically spells it out. And just a lot of logical assumption. If they can't push 20MPs at 14 or 13 bit then they sure as heck can't push 45.
Anyways, lots of people have the camera as of today so it will be 100% confirmed any time now.
An electronic shutter operates by turning the cameras imaging sensor on and off to control exposure. ... An electronic shutter has no mechanical parts, which allows it to achieve faster frame rates than a mechanical shutter.
the ES by definition frees up resources of the Digi X. theoretically, this should enable the camera to pass a higher data rate or faster A/D coversion. than when the camera has to use more the DIGI-X's resources for the calculations, timing, switching, opening/closing the mechanical shutter and controlling the 1st/2nd curtains and mirror. ie the DIGI-X has to perform less calculations for the ES HS+ mode of operation.
i would be willing to say that the camera may possible even run cooler in the ES High Speed+ mode.
InnomnateViem wrote:
i see the reasoning but i agree to disagree.
An electronic shutter operates by turning the cameras imaging sensor on and off to control exposure. ... An electronic shutter has no mechanical parts, which allows it to achieve faster frame rates than a mechanical shutter.
the ES by definition frees up resources of the Digi X. theoretically, this should enable the camera to pass a higher data rate or faster A/D coversion. than when the camera has to use more the DIGI-X's resources for the calculations, timing, switching, opening/closing the mechanical shutter and controlling the 1st/2nd curtains and mirror. ie the DIGI-X has to perform less calculations for the ES HS+ mode of operation.
i would be willing to say that the camera may possible even run cooler in the ES High Speed+ mode....Show more →
I suspect the resources required to tell a mechanical shutter when to function are much less and much simpler than processing 45MP images off a sensor at 20fps.
Based on the precedence of the 1DXIII and cameras from other manufacturers, 12-bit at 20fps ES is a reasonable extrapolation and is confirmed in Canon's own documentation. I'd personally rather take the 12-bit hit and get a global ES in return.
InnomnateViem wrote:
i agree to disagree again. there is a hell of a lot more going on with mechanical shutter than with ES.
maybe i missed it. but i have not seen that confirmed in any of Canon's R5 documentation.
Believe what you want to believe....as I said, we will know with 100% certainly shortly. I could care less because I shoot all my cameras in 12-bit anyways but I'll be satisfied when I'm proven correct on this one.
It is clearly written in the European Canon Specs linked previously regardless of how you seem to want to interpret it.
Scott Stoness wrote:
Intuitively, it will be trivial for BIF because no other manufacturer gets 12fps (or even 10fps) at 14bit. This 13 bit is as good as it gets.
But if you want to get the most out of the R5 on dynamic range/iq (14 bit) for landscape, you should not shoot on continuous high plus. Its still significantly better than Sony where you cannot use bulb at 14 bit.
I'm not sure that's true, you can shoot the A9/A9II in 14 bit mode uncompressed RAW but the 20fps drops to 12fps. I never shoot 20fps anyway, so having 12fps at 14bit is a nice compromise.
But I never seen any effect on IQ at ISO 400+ I usually shoot at for action, wildlife, birding.
Edit ok even in uncompressed RAW it forces 12 bit when in AF-C so I don't even see the point of it being an option. I've read conflicting reports on the A9II about 14 bit an uncompressed in AF-C anyone know if the situation there?
proven? i would not come into a dentist office and tell him how to drill or pull my tooth.
those are specifications that we have been referencing. the ambiguity that we have problems with in those specifications IMPO are because the are specifications written by Canon engineers. engineers are horrible technical writers. that is obvious the more i read those specifications. if you are not trained or have worked with engineering specs how does one read them properly?
that is what engineering technical writers do. they read those specification and decipher them. then write them in a manner that you can understand in the form of test procedures, operation manuals, user manuals, etc.
to make matters worse the joe six pack version of the specifications Canon's R5 Advanced User Manual does not even mention the RAW bit depth for ES+ at all. what does that tell you?
Zenon Char wrote:
This is all new to me. So if choose uncompressed the I'll get 14 bit at 12 fps?
No AF-C forces 12 bit no matter what option you choose compressed or uncompressed. However for AF-S you can shoot 14 bit uncompressed RAW high speed bursts. It's a bit confusing.
InnomnateViem wrote:
i see the reasoning but i agree to disagree.
An electronic shutter operates by turning the cameras imaging sensor on and off to control exposure. ... An electronic shutter has no mechanical parts, which allows it to achieve faster frame rates than a mechanical shutter.
the ES by definition frees up resources of the Digi X. theoretically, this should enable the camera to pass a higher data rate or faster A/D coversion. than when the camera has to use more the DIGI-X's resources for the calculations, timing, switching, opening/closing the mechanical shutter and controlling the 1st/2nd curtains and mirror. ie the DIGI-X has to perform less calculations for the ES HS+ mode of operation.
i would be willing to say that the camera may possible even run cooler in the ES High Speed+ mode....Show more →
Hmm, that's interesting. The shutter speed should be a simple timing signal for the motor circuit that drives the shutter, no? Why would the Digic X be involved in any calculations ?
Also, with EFCS + rear-curtain mechanical, it seems to me like the read-out should *still* be identical an electronic shutter read-out (except for the bit depth, which is lower on the full ES mode for even faster readout) , except that the mechanical shutter (after closing) blocks the light from coming through, so the slow readout (if present) doesn't affect the image because there is no further light hitting the sensor.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
No AF-C forces 12 bit no matter what option you choose compressed or uncompressed. However for AF-S you can shoot 14 bit uncompressed RAW high speed bursts. It's a bit confusing.
Perfect as I get easily confused. Doesn't AF-S = Single shot ? How can I be burst shooting?
what runs the camera, the DIGI-X or a simple timing signal for the motor circuit that drives the shutter, no?
it seems to me like the read-out should *still* be identical an electronic shutter read-out, which is 13 bit A/D conversion. except for the bit depth, which is lower on the full ES mode for even faster readout.
prove it. because that is not what the R5 specification says.
InnomnateViem wrote:
what runs the camera, the DIGI-X or a simple timing signal for the motor circuit that drives the shutter, no?
it seems to me like the read-out should *still* be identical an electronic shutter read-out, which is 13 bit A/D conversion. except for the bit depth, which is lower on the full ES mode for even faster readout.
prove it. because that is not what the R5 specification says.
The readout from the sensor will be the same in all shooting modes to drive the EVF consistently, but what changes is the amount of data processed and written to the card during image capture across the various fps options. At 20fps ES, the camera is processing a lot more information than at 12fps and lower. There must be a bottleneck somewhere that necessitates the change to 12 bits from 13 at 12fps.
Feeding the EVF probably throws away or skips a huge amount of sensor information in the early stages, given it only needs to supply a roughly 5M dots screen resolution. Though there are also the AF processes and those probably require significant resources.
Once you start taking pictures, the system must carry the full sensor information (if shooting RAW) through the entire pipeline.
The bit depth change is clearly stated in the earlier link to the Canon Europe R5 specs page.
