p.67 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
Here are my R5 vs Sony thoughts I jotted down after using the camera for 7 hrs yesterday. We did not have a lot of good subjects to really test everything but it is what it is. I'll get to play with it again in the future and hopefully try it on some other subjects. If you have questions I can try to answer them but this is very limited experience with the R5 so far.
AED is remarkable. I couldn’t believe how far away it would narrow down to a head square. I used it both in Auto and User Selected point. I wish I could have both of those options on a different back button but you can use C modes to switch quickly via the M-Fn C-mode toggle option.
The Sony RTT surely competes but the R5’s AED makes things even easier. I could literally look away from my flipped out LCD and check my email and trust the Auto AED to be tracking the birds head while I was shooting a Yellowlegs foraging, spinning in the water, head in and out. I think out of 200 shots maybe 4 had a slight focus shift. I’ve looked away from my Sony’s LCD also and you can sort of trust it but the RTT can drift and it then won’t recover. The AED is always making adjustments (some not good…see next) but it will get back on the head without any input or AF-ON pumping. The AED did show times off odd behaviour, jumping around too much when backgrounds got really close (like a rocky shore with specular highlights) and sometimes couldn’t “see” the tiny sandpipers at first. But that was in Auto…switch over to USSP and “bam” there it goes onto the head.
Where the R5 falls behind the A9 is when tracking BIF against complicated backgrounds. I saw this in a few different scenarios. First time I was tracking a mallard that flew against a row of houses. The AED kept pumping back onto the houses (dancing squares) and then back to the birds. When the birds got against sky it then nailed them. Another time I had an Oystercatcher take off from the ground over specular highlight rocky low-tide shore. The AED couldn’t see it with all the distractions, it came up high enough to be against sky and the AED grabbed it, a second later it came down lower and as soon as the background got complicated the AED lost it again. This is the biggest difference I found vs A9 RTT. With A9 RTT it does sometimes have difficulty picking it up against a background as the R5 AED did at first but if the A9 RTT gets the lock against the sky it will never let it go against a background. I’ve always said the A9’s stickiness is its greatest strength and one of its biggest weaknesses as if it gets what you want you have nailed the shot…but if it grabs something else you might as well put the camera down till the next flight pass. The R5 makes more decisions and jumps back and forth which means it will lose a subject as background changes. The R5 AED tracking doesn’t get distracted by the bird passing behind sticks and things (nor does the A9) so in that case both are excellent.
Ergonomics:
I had thought the R5 would be a much better camera to hold than the Sony. It isn’t any better. The grip size in the hand is essentially equal. The buttons on the A9II/A7RIV are better. The R5’s are like an A9/A7RIII/A7III…small and hard to tell if you are hitting the correct one and which one you are hitting (especially between * and focus option buttons). The feel of the wheels I found sort of similar or close enough I didn’t care one way or the other. The two ways the R5 grip is better than Sony A9II is there is more space between fingers and lenses and my pinky can just fit on the grip without the BG on. With the A9II my pinky is about 1/2 on and on the A9 it is only a sliver on. I would always use a BG on either camera and my fingers are skinny so I’ve never found an issue with tight space between Sony lenses. So for me the A9II wins for ergonomics but it won’t for everyone.
R5 Pros:
* AED which makes shooting everything other than the most challenging BIF easier, almost brain dead easy….
* Top LCD
* More space between grip/lens
* Longer grip to support pinky
* Three wheels where I can have ISO on top rear wheel without pushing a button every time I turn on the camera for My Dial
* MS sound (this is such a nice shutter...best I've heard)
* MS frame insertion at 12FPS
* Faster card writing speeds with no issues as it writes even with the USH-II SD card (CFe is of course faster still but I was surprised that it didn’t seem a lot faster…you still could watch the red light for a few seconds after just a 30 shot burst with CFe)
R5 Cons:
* Can't decrease FPS in ES...this really annoys me...but I think the R5 would end up being a MS camera for me anyways
* Can’t have AED USSP and Auto recognized and therefore assigned to two different buttons (need to utilize C modes or my Menu)
* Can’t have ES/MS toggle assigned to a button (need to use C modes or My Menu)
* Gets confused with complicated backgrounds while tracking and shooting
* Can’t get AED out of Zone or any other AF mode (I had thought you could out of Zone but I guess only Human Head Face detect works as it never activated on the birds?). Eye-Detect is greyed out once in Zone AF but Human/Animal is still selected so I thought it would still see the bird as a subject or the head but it doesn’t.
* Batteries drain in parallel meaning you always have to charge two no matter how short your session.
* Leaning vertical lines in the background in ES and an always present risk of wing distortion in ES.
* Very hard to see the white outline that flashes while shooting in ES, no fake ES sound option. Unless I cram my eye socket onto the EVF I can’t visualize the outer white frame and I need to look towards it instead of at my subject.
A9II Pros:
* More sticky erratic/fast bird tracking
* Can initiate RTT out of any AF mode from Single point (Small Flex Spot) all the way up to Wide (Full sensor Auto)
* Can assign a button to instantly change any regular AF mode into RTT (I use my lens button for this)
* Selectable FPS in ES
* Better buttons, especially the AF-ON
* Batteries in grip drain in sequence not in parallel
* ES, blackout free….the R5 ES is pretty darn good for not being a true live feed but the A9(II) experience is still better. More noticeable as subjects get faster and closer to the camera
* Four different choices of how shooting in ES is displayed and option for fake ES sound. For those with an A9 I’d recommend the blue option #2 which flashes a blue box over whatever shape your AF point is. Even when in Wide it is easier to see the flash around the outside of the frame compared to the R5’s white frame flash.
A9II Cons:
* Doesn’t have AED
* Shorter grip, grip tighter to lens (not for me personally but it is a thing)
* MS uses Live feed with real shutter blackout which I think is more difficult to track than the frame insertion of the R5 (but who would use MS on an A9?)
* Card writing speeds (really this is more an A7RIV con as the A9 it never affects me but for sure the R5 writes faster)
* No top LCD (personal preference)
If you own all Sony: Stick with Sony
If you own all Canon: Buy an R5 or R6
If you shoot Sony but kept a lot of Canon lenses OR if you are starting from scratch: A9II if you want to have the world’s best AF Tracking for fast/erratic subjects in ES. R5 for pretty much everything else. R5 for the best AF tracking if not having to erratically pan/track a fast BIF. If you are wanting higher MP I’d choose R5 over A7RIV (I think the R5 does basically everything better than the RIV). If you want lower MPs I’d choose A9II over R6 (of course those are vastly different price points) but only if you are really after challenging flight stuff otherwise R6 should be a great value if 20MP is enough....Show more →
Nice review. What I couldn't understand is
"R5: Three wheels where I can have ISO on top rear wheel without pushing a button every time I turn on the camera for My Dial"
I have ISO to rear wheel and SS+aperture to the other two wheels on the Sony. So I don't need to push a button at all. Do you mean compared to 5div etc? Because there I was annoyed to always have to press a button and the selector wheel on the back was too far down for me.
p.67 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
Nice review. What I couldn't understand is
"R5: Three wheels where I can have ISO on top rear wheel without pushing a button every time I turn on the camera for My Dial"
I have ISO to rear wheel and SS+aperture to the other two wheels on the Sony. So I don't need to push a button at all. Do you mean compared to 5div etc? Because there I was annoyed to always have to press a button and the selector wheel on the back was too far down for me.
What I meant with that is I want the ISO to be controlled by the upper rear dial, not the wheel. With Sony you can now do that with the My Dial feature but it doesn't remember it after powering off the camera so I have to always push a button to toggle to My Dial 1 when I turn on the camera (I use the Trash Can for this). Sure that isn't a big deal but it is just one more thing that sometimes I forget to do and then my muscle memory goes to change ISO with the upper rear dial and it is changing aperture instead. All I want is for Sony to allow My Dial 1 to be the default when turning on the camera or just allow the default (not using My dial) to be changed as one would like.
Thanks for the review. Are there any issues with the R5 and TCs or did they work as seamlessly (with no reduction in AF drive speed) as they do on Sony?
I did not notice any difference with TCs on. Of course I was only using adapted EF glass and TCs. I used the 400DOII/2xTC and I used the bare 600III and 600III/1.4TC. So with the 600 I really didn't notice any slowdown. With the 400DOII I never used it with the bare lens so I can't say if it would have been faster without the TC. But it seemed like things were working similarly with the 400DOII/2xTC as they were with the 600 and 600/1.4TC. I would need way more time to really say for sure.
p.67 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
AGeoJO wrote:
Haha, I know someone really well that has and actually uses Sony A9 and Canon R5. Personally, I would rather know the ins and outs of a system well where I can make any adjustment necessary out in the field to make some rare shooting opportunities count rather than fumble around trying to figure how to do what.
The question to you now, Geoff, what will you do if Sony introduces the A9r or whatever they will call it with a 36-42MP stacked sensor? You know that Sony is not standing idle right now...
I'm not buying an R5 right now so I'll be ready for the A9r or A9III
I may change my mind about buying an R5 but because I have to buy a lens also it just doesn't seem worth it right now.
With my luck I'd probably drop $10K for body and lens and TCs and grip and CFe card and reader etc. and the next day Sony would release free FW update for Animal-Eye-AF including birds that rivals or bests the R5
p.67 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
There is still no camera that can do what the A9 can do, so why would they waste a tech leap forward when they are already the market leader? It was a good refinement release that catered to wire shooters, although I think they missed a good opportunity to price it more aggressively.
Scott, If canon had put anymore functionality in the R5 they might as will kiss the 1dx class good-by. The 1dxr is coming or what ever they want to call it, I have no doubt it will be better than the R5 in every-way. I'm sure it will be a leader in its class when it arrives as the Sony a9's are now, for Sony users.
p.67 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I sort of rushed out my first opinions as I was getting a lot of PMs asking about the R5.
Here are some more thoughts that didn’t make it into yesterday’s post….
The R5 continues the MILC trend which I’ve found in all my MILCs (Z50, Z7, A9, A9II, A7RIV) where it can’t “see” a very close OOF perch when it is already focused way out at or near infinity.
We setup a test early morning while standing around waiting for a Pygmy Owl to show up where we focused the R5 and the 1DXIII out to infinity on the distant forest and then tried to get the AF to drive back to a near perch. The R5 would never even attempt to drive back to the perch. The 1DXIII in All point mode (via the OVF PDAF sensor) did drive back. But even the 1DXIII with a single point/expansion would not “see” and drive to the perch. This situation was pretty extreme so I would have liked to have tested in a know scenario like my backyard where I have a good idea when the other cameras tend to fail to drive into my perches. I didn’t really expect the R5 to be any different but I thought maybe the DPAF would behave a little differently than the other systems.
The drive speed of the AF seemed a little quicker than Sony….I didn’t find it too different but another Sony shooter who was there that day tried it for a minute and thought it definitely was quicker going to and from different focus targets at varying distances.
The EVF looked a little nicer than the A9II but it wasn’t a night and day difference. To be honest I rarely notice the difference in the EVF when I switch between the A9II and A7RIV where as others say they notice a big difference so maybe others would notice more of one.
I would still prefer a flip screen that is in line with the lens but it still worked fine for my usual ground level shooting technique where a rest the battery grip on the toe of my left shoe, hold the far end of the lens hood with my left hand and AF/shoot with my right hand. In some ways it actually put the screen in a less obstructed viewing angle, just takes an extra second to deploy it as you have to flip out and then spin it towards you. I guess if I kept it turned in towards the camera when not using it it would only take one move to get it ready.
I noticed that in MS if I got carried away and just kept bursting while trying to follow a fairly fast BIF that the tracking would lose the subject and was throwing random sized rectangle boxes over the sky. This happens to me on the A7RIV also in MS where if I burst for too long it just stops dancing the dots on the subject. I think with both cameras the entire system just gets overwhelmed with all the data coming in OR because of the frame insertion I just get too far behind my subject with my panning and don’t realize it until I see the next frames with the AF points way off the subject.
I mentioned this as a brief line item in the R5 pluses but I need to mention it again….the sound of the MS is so nice. I thought the sound of the A7RIV/A9II MS was really good but this R5 is even quieter.
The EVF wake up is better than Sony for sure. Or going out of menu/playback and up to shooting seems faster. Just less lag before all the overlay and focus point shows up after you raise the camera to your eye or get out of the menu/playback. We had the camera setup so that the Illumination button toggled between the EVF/LCD. So the LCD was always off unless you toggled over to it. The EVF went off after a couple seconds away from your eye.
Battery life. I shot 3000 shots over about 7hrs. A fair bit of chipping although not excessive and a lot of fiddling with menus, setting up C modes, going back and forth to change MS/ES and Start point for AED etc. The batteries were at about 25% each at the end of the day. So 1.5 batteries for that full day. No issues with that. Sony would last longer but not by a huge margin. The CIPA rating isn’t very relevant to real world use.
My feature requests for Canon for FW would be:
1. Lower FPS options in ES
2. More customization options for some of the buttons like an ES/MS toggle
3. Having Auto and User-selected Start point for Face/Eye Detect be recognized as two different AF modes
4. Have an EVF/LCD option like Nikon where it acts like a DSLR. EVF all the time (activated by the eye sensor) but if you push Play or Menu and don’t have the EVF eye sensor triggered it then will use the LCD. But it won’t go to LCD unless you push Menu or Play. You could still have the toggle button setup for when you want to do LCD flip screen shooting.
5. Drain the battery grip batteries one at a time
p.67 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I've had my r5 for about a week plus now. I've gone to the park with it a bit and by river side in the city. My main sony body is the A7r iv. Couple things I've noticed shooting with similar lenses combos
#1 A7riv w/ Gm 100-400 vs R5 with 100-400 Mark ii EF
#2 A7riv w 16-35 GM vs R5 with 15-35 RF.
I am use to sony menus and I think the layout of the Sony buttons is better. I did own a 5d mark iv and a eos r so I am not unfamiliar to canon buttons, but I just prefer sony. I don't like how the R5 wheel does not click in any direction. Having used A7riv and S1r I find myself constantly pressing for buttons that don't exist on the dial pad/wheel.
As for the AF, the Canon is just faster than the RIV. For non people subjects, if you rely on eye AF the R5 is ridiculously good, not as good as YouTubers would want you to believe but very impressive. Stabilization is better than sony (sony didn't have the best ibis anyway) and I found high iso to be better than my s1r and naturally better than the a7riv. I am suprised that the 45 MP on the canon holds up so well compared to 61mp on the Sony. I was expecting a more noticeable difference on Sony's behalf. The r5 produces some very very sharp images. I think Sony will improve their AI with the next body, but until then I am going to say the Canon AF has a slight edge. With that said, if I would not jump systems. The Sony system is a much better $$ platform to be on vs the RF platform, unless you want to keep adapting EF glass. Dual IS with the entire trinity is something I think only Canon is offering which is probably the #1 selling point in my eyes, that's about it.
p.67 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
nycdarkness wrote:
I've had my r5 for about a week plus now. I've gone to the park with it a bit and by river side in the city. My main sony body is the A7r iv. Couple things I've noticed shooting with similar lenses combos
#1 A7riv w/ Gm 100-400 vs R5 with 100-400 Mark ii EF
#2 A7riv w 16-35 GM vs R5 with 15-35 RF.
I am use to sony menus and I think the layout of the Sony buttons is better. I did own a 5d mark iv and a eos r so I am not unfamiliar to canon buttons, but I just prefer sony. I don't like how the R5 wheel does not click in any direction. Having used A7riv and S1r I find myself constantly pressing for buttons that don't exist on the dial pad/wheel.
As for the AF, the Canon is just faster than the RIV. For non people subjects, if you rely on eye AF the R5 is ridiculously good, not as good as YouTubers would want you to believe but very impressive. Stabilization is better than sony (sony didn't have the best ibis anyway) and I found high iso to be better than my s1r and naturally better than the a7riv. I am suprised that the 45 MP on the canon holds up so well compared to 61mp on the Sony. I was expecting a more noticeable difference on Sony's behalf. The r5 produces some very very sharp images. I think Sony will improve their AI with the next body, but until then I am going to say the Canon AF has a slight edge. With that said, if I would not jump systems. The Sony system is a much better $$ platform to be on vs the RF platform, unless you want to keep adapting EF glass. Dual IS with the entire trinity is something I think only Canon is offering which is probably the #1 selling point in my eyes, that's about it. ...Show more →
Thanks for your impressions.
I have some EF glass laying around so I ordered an R5.
p.67 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Iman113 wrote:
Arbitrage did you notice a significant drop in FPS as the batteries drained throughout the day, as has been reported?
No I didn't really notice it until the very end. I was shooting a lot in ES and my understanding is ES doesn't drop with lower battery. Near the end of the day I noticed it harder to track a flying Oystercatcher in MS and looked at the screen to see that the previously green H+ logo was now white. That indicates it has dropped FPS and with that comes more lag/stutter. I'm not sure at what battery level it dropped at as before I was in ES except for much earlier in the day with way more battery. When I did notice the drop the batteries were each at around 30%. I don't think it drops as early as 60% as noted in the Canon manual but someone should really test to see when it does. If I had the camera I certainly would run a day fully on MS and keep an eye on the H+ indicator.
p.67 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
No I didn't really notice it until the very end. I was shooting a lot in ES and my understanding is ES doesn't drop with lower battery. Near the end of the day I noticed it harder to track a flying Oystercatcher in MS and looked at the screen to see that the previously green H+ logo was now white. That indicates it has dropped FPS and with that comes more lag/stutter. I'm not sure at what battery level it dropped at as before I was in ES except for much earlier in the day with way more battery. When I did notice the drop the batteries were each at around 30%. I don't think it drops as early as 60% as noted in the Canon manual but someone should really test to see when it does. If I had the camera I certainly would run a day fully on MS and keep an eye on the H+ indicator....Show more →
You had it gripped as well, right? I'd want to know how fast a single battery goes into the "white" mode.
p.67 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
No I didn't really notice it until the very end. I was shooting a lot in ES and my understanding is ES doesn't drop with lower battery. Near the end of the day I noticed it harder to track a flying Oystercatcher in MS and looked at the screen to see that the previously green H+ logo was now white. That indicates it has dropped FPS and with that comes more lag/stutter. I'm not sure at what battery level it dropped at as before I was in ES except for much earlier in the day with way more battery. When I did notice the drop the batteries were each at around 30%. I don't think it drops as early as 60% as noted in the Canon manual but someone should really test to see when it does. If I had the camera I certainly would run a day fully on MS and keep an eye on the H+ indicator....Show more →
With the grip it uses two batteries at a time, so FPS likely doesn't drop until both are at 30%.
p.67 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
mdvaden wrote:
And Ken has been proven to review far more bodies and lenses he's used, than most people who talk about what he has or hasn't seen.
He's basically a mammoth rising above a plethora of midget commentators.
Ken pretty much invented clickbait reviews.
He's got some amazing content, but he is also very deliberately provocative to drive traffic, and has been for 20+ years.
He's outstanding at balancing just enough clickbait to drive traffic without turning into a caricature of himself as some more recent pundits have (most notably the Northrups, but Jared Polin and Theorah Apotheosis come to mind as well).
p.67 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
armd wrote:
Yes, I’m one of those crazy guys if you consider owning a R5 and a9 as a qualifier? My a7riv went bye bye weeks ago. Interestingly, your observations were strikingly similar to those I had posted earlier in this thread. It is reassuring to see I wasn’t the only one disappointed by the buttons and inability to assign broad functions to them as well. The only reason I purchased an R5 is that I still own many long EF lenses. For those who don’t, I would stick with the a9ii/a7riv combination.
With respect to stickiness, hopefully with some tweaks, the R5 can be made to improve. Turning down the af sensitivity helped significantly. I look at all of these innovations as marvelous opportunities....Show more →
For the moment, I'm also one of those crazy guys. I bought the R5 to use with the Canon 500mm f/4 IS II I still had after I sold my Canon cameras. So, now I have the Sony A9/A7R IV and the 200-600mm and the Canon R5 with the 500mm. Pretty sure I'll stick with Canon, just because of the 500mm, but I agree with Arbitrage that the A9's AF seems stickier and and I need time to find out whether that's indeed the case as I get more used to the R5 and can shoot it in all situations that matter to me in terms of optimal AF. Previously, I thought I'd sell all my Sony gear the moment the 5R arrived.
Oh, and I still have my Olympus kit and love the small size of most of those lenses.
p.67 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Ken is one of about half a dozen reviewers that I consult about new and old gear. I like his style and attention to features and details, and most importantly -- he actually uses the products to provide real world examples similar to how I often use the gear.
Fred and Ken are nearly neighbors in Southern California, and are like two sides of the same coin, both featuring different sets of technical emphasis, product details, and use, and using different approaches to their work.
I highly compliment Ken that he is a beast at putting out content on new products, multiple brands, and formats.
p.67 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Gunzorro wrote:
Ken is one of about half a dozen reviewers that I consult about new and old gear. I like his style and attention to features and details, and most importantly -- he actually uses the products to provide real world examples similar to how I often use the gear.
Fred and Ken are nearly neighbors in Southern California, and are like two sides of the same coin, both featuring different sets of technical emphasis, product details, and use, and using different approaches to their work.
I highly compliment Ken that he is a beast at putting out content on new products, multiple brands, and formats....Show more →
I am sure Fred is in awe to be put on the same pedestal as Ken.
p.67 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
johnvanr wrote:
For the moment, I'm also one of those crazy guys. I bought the R5 to use with the Canon 500mm f/4 IS II I still had after I sold my Canon cameras. So, now I have the Sony A9/A7R IV and the 200-600mm and the Canon R5 with the 500mm. Pretty sure I'll stick with Canon, just because of the 500mm, but I agree with Arbitrage that the A9's AF seems stickier and and I need time to find out whether that's indeed the case as I get more used to the R5 and can shoot it in all situations that matter to me in terms of optimal AF. Previously, I thought I'd sell all my Sony gear the moment the 5R arrived.
Oh, and I still have my Olympus kit and love the small size of most of those lenses. ...Show more →
It's interesting and reassuring that users are coming to similar conclusions, namely the buttons (and programming) is better on the a9II and a7riv, the MS on the a9II is superior with respect to the EVF, and the af is stickier on the a9II. Personally, I find the R5 to be a much better camera than the a7riv, though again if one had an a9(ii) and Sony glass, the R5 is not a reason to switch.
The eye tracking is simply astounding and if one can get it to bite, then it tends to stay. Turning down the af sensitivity helps though I have to play with the cases a bit more to see if there is something hidden which can tone down the "jumpiness".
Geoff's observations are spot on and I hope that Canon will introduce greater programability for the buttons to enable a more functionally usable platform and a way to reduce the fps of ES. For stills, it is a wonderful camera though Canon for all of its great lenses has nothing comparable to the 200-600. Even the new 100-500's MTF is not as sharp and is not an internal zoom.
