Archive 2020 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
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p.63 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
2xbass wrote:
the capabilities Canon now has are also taking advantage of a MUCH faster processor
what exactly are you basing that claim on?
do you have links showing the clock speeds of both processors? can you tell us what the respective bus widths are? aka 16 bit vs. 32 bit for example... how about cache sizes for both systems? etc.
2xbass wrote:
(Digic X) that the current Bionz X can't match (although we see the Bionz XR in the A7SIII) and the R5 and R6 have substantially more AF points than any of the Sony cameras do. So I think Sony can make some improvements in software but it will take new hardware to regain the lead again.
no, sony already has a massive hardware lead with stacked sensors, that canon will most likely never be able to match.
notice that the r5 sensor apparently isn't even bsi, canon doesn't list bsi anywhere in it's literature... downright primitive, in other words, with baked-in nr to try and fake the performance.
you can't improve sensor readout speed with external downstream hardware... sony stacked sensors have integrated logic, dac, and adc, which is again much faster than doing it off-chip, see the video.
p.63 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
mogul wrote:
The R5 is especially made for Canadian shooters, the hand warmer is built in. Seriously, please run this camera at 20fps & check the noise in the later shots.
Great. Loved that. No noise difference after the 50th image at 20fps. Af spot on every shot of large bird preening.
p.63 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
osv2 wrote:
what exactly are you basing that claim on?
no, sony already has a massive hardware lead with stacked sensors, that canon will most likely never be able to match.
notice that the r5 sensor apparently isn't even bsi, canon doesn't list bsi anywhere in it's literature... downright primitive, in other words, with baked-in nr to try and fake the performance.
you can't improve sensor readout speed with external downstream hardware... sony stacked sensors have integrated logic, dac, and adc, which is again much faster than doing it off-chip, see the video.
As I mentioned in another post, none of us can really know without having intimate knowledge of all the systems. It’s also the case that with many systems you can have extremely powerful hardware and use it poorly and you can have less powerful and capable hardware and use it extremely efficiently. I’m just guessing based on my experience as a pretty demanding user of the systems and with a few decades experience in computer systems. Why did Sony feel they needed to update the processor in the A7SIII and tell everyone it is eight times faster? It’s also important to note that whether it is because of the hardware or how they use it, the feeling of being limited comes through not just in AF, which we’ve been primarily discussing, but in other ways too. Thank goodness with the A7SIII you can now finally make setting changes while the buffer is clearing.
I’ll be happy to be wrong if Sony can make huge improvements in firmware alone especially after having upgraded to the A9II and seen very little improvement. However I think it’s a bit of wishful thinking.
Aug 21, 2020 at 03:03 PM
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p.63 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
2xbass wrote:
As I mentioned in another post, none of us can really know without having intimate knowledge of all the systems. It’s also the case that with many systems you can have extremely powerful hardware and use it poorly and you can have less powerful and capable hardware and use it extremely efficiently. I’m just guessing based on my experience as a pretty demanding user of the systems and with a few decades experience in computer systems. Why did Sony feel they needed to update the processor in the A7SIII and tell everyone it is eight times faster? It’s also important to note that whether it is because of the hardware or how they use it, the feeling of being limited comes through not just in AF, which we’ve been primarily discussing, but in other ways too. Thank goodness with the A7SIII you can now finally make setting changes while the buffer is clearing.
I’ll be happy to be wrong if Sony can make huge improvements in firmware alone especially after having upgraded to the A9II and seen very little improvement. However I think it’s a bit of wishful thinking....Show more →
firmware will not improve sensor readout speed, and whatever sony says about the a7siii has nothing to do with the canon processor, that's a strawman claim.
you can access a9/a9ii "my menu" 100% of the time, along with intelligently programming buttons to where you don't need to make changes, so that complaint doesn't mean much.
you must not be aware that the a9/a9ii can do up to 60 af/ae calcs a second, they are working with a lot more overall sensor readout data per minute than any canon camera is capable of generating.
as proven by the blackout-free a9/a9ii evf, while r5 has to use frame duplication, because canon sensor/processor is way too slow.
the r5 in crop mode still doesn't have a blackout-free evf, so it's not because of the higher mp sensor... canon hardware is primitive, no bsi and fake nr at base iso is a good indicator of that.
p.63 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
It seems a bit like you were cherry picking, or perhaps you misunderstood my post- maybe that is my fault. Regardless, just because the r5 had limited 8k and 4k 120 doesn’t make it a ‘big fail’ for video. It’s a hybrid camera, with respectable photo specs, not a video camera, and other than the a7s iii it has the best overall video offering (taking into account the ibis capability, and auto focus as factors) available for ff with or without 4k 120 and 8k. That is the point i was making. Also, i never claimed the r5 was a threat to sony, only a similar type of innovation to what the a73 was, with the most current technology available. Never did i say sony was in trouble only that when the a74 comes out its closest competition in the hybrid shooter realm would be a lesser capable crop sensor xt4 for 1000 less or a higher mp r5 for 1500 more with less reliable video features. That is actually a positive for Sony, not a negative. And you might not see how crop sensor competes but those who want more affordable, more compact, hybrid cameras with otherwise similar specs may. It’s different strokes for different folks. We don’t all shoot birds in flight or bokeh portraits. We don’t all need 100mp or 50. We dont all need 8k or 4k 120, but thats why there’s more than one camera available for each manufacturer.
osv2 wrote:
canon failed big time with r5 video... no event shooter with any common sense is going to want to gamble with a camera that shuts down in the middle of a ceremony, and then takes 12 hours to cool off.
so i don't see r5 video overheating as any kind of a threat to what sony is doing.
canon does not have stacked sensors, so canon does not have a9 technology, not even close.
r5 is using frame duplication to cover up blackout in the evf, which cripples your ability to track fast action in the evf.
i don't see how crop sensors compete with ff sensors.
fuji doesn't have stacked sensors, and fuji af is weak compared to sony af, so again no threat to what sony is doing.
p.63 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
yes, it's ridiculous, things like no bsi on a $3900 camera? if that's true, it's just another embarrassment for canon.
probably not on the scale of r5 video meltdowns and overheating with stills, more like death by a 1000 cuts.
Aug 21, 2020 at 04:22 PM
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p.63 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
if we don't all need bif or bokeh portraits, why make posts about how good the $3900 r5 is? i don't get it.
wrt to video, i used to shoot video for a living, so i understand the ramifications of not being able to deliver content that you are contracted to shoot... overheating shut down with a 12-hour required cool-down makes the r5 not suitable for use by it's intended prosumer market.
the only semi-reliable r5 video that you can shoot is done just as well or better with other hybrid cameras, for instance cameras that don't need to do it with line-skipping... cameras that also don't lower the stills frame rate when the battery hits 60% charge, talk about a major fail :-0
wrt video af, i don't agree that the r5 has better video af than the a9/a9ii.
beyond that, sony has six pz-powered zooms for video, canon doesn't have any in rf-mount, and only one powered zoom in crop mount... it's a big reason why the associated press gave their camera contract to sony stills/video gear, over canon, despite the r5/r6.
Odinsoffphotography wrote:
It seems a bit like you were cherry picking, or perhaps you misunderstood my post- maybe that is my fault. Regardless, just because the r5 had limited 8k and 4k 120 doesn’t make it a ‘big fail’ for video. It’s a hybrid camera, with respectable photo specs, not a video camera, and other than the a7s iii it has the best overall video offering (taking into account the ibis capability, and auto focus as factors) available for ff with or without 4k 120 and 8k. That is the point i was making. Also, i never claimed the r5 was a threat to sony, only a similar type of innovation to what the a73 was, with the most current technology available. Never did i say sony was in trouble only that when the a74 comes out its closest competition in the hybrid shooter realm would be a lesser capable crop sensor xt4 for 1000 less or a higher mp r5 for 1500 more with less reliable video features. That is actually a positive for Sony, not a negative. And you might not see how crop sensor competes but those who want more affordable, more compact, hybrid cameras with otherwise similar specs may. It’s different strokes for different folks. We don’t all shoot birds in flight or bokeh portraits. We don’t all need 100mp or 50. We dont all need 8k or 4k 120, but thats why there’s more than one camera available for each manufacturer.
p.63 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
arbitrage wrote:
I still have hope that the A9II will get the Animal Eye-AF Mark II FW. I recently made a thread about just that: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1658681
I see less chance of the RIV getting it because the A9II has an updated processor. Remember Sony said they would have updates in the future and only supported cats and dogs with the initial release despite the fact of showing birds and other animals in the initial Animal Eye-AF presentation.
I think Sony owe it to the A9II owners who forked out a lot of $$ for a minimally updated camera....I may be a little biased
Ditto, but I'd like it also on the A9 and A7RIV. It is great how well it finds small birds in brush. It is fast becoming my favorite for backyard shooting.
p.63 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Tony Northrup is a poor source of data - remember the Steve McCurry, Afghan Girl lies he was pushing
he tried to spin it and cover his BS
made me think he should run for politics
p.63 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Did you watch the video?
rattlebonez wrote:
Tony Northrup is a poor source of data - remember the Steve McCurry, Afghan Girl lies he was pushing
he tried to spin it and cover his BS
made me think he should run for politics
p.63 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
osv2 wrote:
firmware will not improve sensor readout speed, and whatever sony says about the a7siii has nothing to do with the canon processor, that's a strawman claim.
you can access a9/a9ii "my menu" 100% of the time, along with intelligently programming buttons to where you don't need to make changes, so that complaint doesn't mean much.
you must not be aware that the a9/a9ii can do up to 60 af/ae calcs a second, they are working with a lot more overall sensor readout data per minute than any canon camera is capable of generating.
as proven by the blackout-free a9/a9ii evf, while r5 has to use frame duplication, because canon sensor/processor is way too slow.
the r5 in crop mode still doesn't have a blackout-free evf, so it's not because of the higher mp sensor... canon hardware is primitive, no bsi and fake nr at base iso is a good indicator of that.
p.63 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
osv2 wrote:
[you must not be aware that the a9/a9ii can do up to 60 af/ae calcs a second, they are working with a lot more overall sensor readout data per minute than any canon camera is capable of generating
Yes I’m very aware that they are doing 60 calculations per second. In the end, hardware, software, specs, whatever. All that matters is the end result and the experience. We shall see what happens.
Aug 21, 2020 at 10:46 PM
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p.63 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
jtra wrote:
Interesting that heat protection is driven by timer (that can be reset by disconnecting internal battery), but not actual temperature.
that excessive noise might explain why canon is applying so much nr at base iso... but how is pulling the cmos backup battery going to stop the sensor from overheating like it does? what if the theoretical timer is actually there to prevent damage, it's not just another canon cripple hammer?
"Based on my experience with quite a few cameras I estimate that the [r5] NR gives ISO 100 and ISO 400 about 2/3 stop improvement in Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR).
p.63 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
2xbass wrote:
Yes I’m very aware that they are doing 60 calculations per second. In the end, hardware, software, specs, whatever. All that matters is the end result and the experience. We shall see what happens.
i own an a9, so i do understand your point there.
it's just that i found the lag to be of little practical consequence, especially given the af results, but then again it was enough of an issue for dpr to comment on it in their a9ii review.
i think that getting distracted from sony by a seriously flawed r5/r6 is going to lead to disappointment in the long run... sony may have created a stacked sensor that is still unequalled over three years after it was released, but they cut some corners doing it... using ddr3 when ddr4 was just becoming widely available, and 65nm manufacturing process according to the video? if that's comparable to cpu technology, it's primitive even by 2017 standards.
in other words, if sony wanted to spend the money, they could easily put the hammer down hard on canon, they have far superior sensor eng/mfg capabilities.
