p.56 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I dont want or need an A9r and I shoot BIF with my A9ii. The only way id take a few more pixels is both high ISO and AF speeds improve further. 24 mpx is plenty... more mpx does not equal better image quality. Never has
Steve Spencer wrote:
Like I suggested earlier, they seem to be marketing the camera to different people and in different places in different ways. I don't see how any of that is surprising.
As I also said earlier, I don't think as a video centric camera it stands up that well against the Sony A7s III. Certainly not for my uses. I suppose some--particularly those who use an external monitor or who shoot very short clips--may find it to be a compelling camera, but even then some (I count myself here as I typically use an external monitor when shooting video) are likely to find the A7s III more useful.
As a high megapixel fast action camera, I think it occupies a fairly unique space at the moment. If you haven't noticed on the Sony forum here, people have been clamoring for a high megapixel A9 type camera, often called the A9r. This camera certainly has some issues (much slower sensor read out than ideal causing rolling shutter distortion, loss of fps when the battery level drops, loss of low ISO DR when using the electronic shutter) even in such a use case, but I think it comes closer to that sort of camera than anything else that has come along so far. I can see why it would be interesting to people who have wanted a camera like that. I think marketed in a way that highlights that sort of use, the camera could still find a quite decent market. Definitely not my cup of tea, but I think it may well be a blend people want.
If Sony makes an A9r with a stacked BSI 42MP sensor, then that would be, IMO, the camera to compare to this Canon R5. I think the Sony would likely be a clearly better camera as the sensor readout would be faster allowing the electronic shutter to work considerably better. I also think the sensor specs on such a camera would likely be better. Sony still should improve the mechanical shutter over the one in the A7r IV and A9 II, however, to keep up with the Canon. For Sony shooters, I think one of the good things to come out of the launch of the Canon R5 is that Sony might build the A9r sooner, and it might be a better camera because Canon made the R5. It likely will have to be close in price too. I think a lot of Sony shooters would love that A9r and love even more that they can get it for probably less than $4,000....Show more →
p.56 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Maxxus46 wrote:
I dont want or need an A9r and I shoot BIF with my A9ii. The only way id take a few more pixels is both high ISO and AF speeds improve further. 24 mpx is plenty... more mpx does not equal better image quality. Never has
More pixels allows more cropping. I don't shoot birds, but when shooting bears where you need to keep your distance, cropping is pretty handy.
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p.56 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Maxxus46 wrote:
I dont want or need an A9r and I shoot BIF with my A9ii. The only way id take a few more pixels is both high ISO and AF speeds improve further. 24 mpx is plenty... more mpx does not equal better image quality. Never has
And that is why I think there will always be a market for the A9. I think quite a few people share your perspective. I also think that quite a few people would like more megapixels for shooting fast action and that is why I think there has been a clamoring for an A9r. I am actually with you. I wouldn't get the A9r even if it was available and I am happy with the A9, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market out there for an A9r. I think there very well may be plenty of room for both an A9 and an A9r.
p.56 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I am with Steve on this. I prefer my action camera to be better in low light, and less hard on my workflow than high mp sensors provide. I will use an a7xx body for when I want high mp.
For me BIF is just a fun thing once in a while, so cropping small bird images is not that high a priority.
p.56 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Steve Spencer wrote:
And that is why I think there will always be a market for the A9. I think quite a few people share your perspective. I also think that quite a few people would like more megapixels for shooting fast action and that is why I think there has been a clamoring for an A9r. I am actually with you. I wouldn't get the A9r even if it was available and I am happy with the A9, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market out there for an A9r. I think there very well may be plenty of room for both an A9 and an A9r....Show more →
I don't see a business case for an a9r. There are already too many bodies as is. Plus the a9r will inevitibly be inferior to the a9 because of the processing load involved with higher resolution images. Same reason the 1d cameras tend to be lower resolution than the 5d.
p.56 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Having a sensor with many megapixels does not mean you have to have big file size. Sony could introduce mraw and sraw just like Canon and Nikon. Then you can use one camera and choose depending on what you want.
The issues with shooting action is that if you try to frame to tight you end up clipping bodyparts of your subject a lot. This is in fact the main reason I mess up my shots. And if you shoot with primes the action is not always positioned perfectly for you, so in my opinion having a little leeway is a good idea. It also gives you flexibility when framing in post. Cropping is the standard and at 6k resolution there is not that much room for cropping before you can't even fill the screen on a 4k or 5k monitor.
Having 2 cameras one for high res and another for action is not optimal. If you use the high res one you risk loosing out on action and if you use the action camera you loose resolution. Plus it is just more crap to buy and drag around which I believe most of us would prefer not to.
If Sony doesn't get this then in the long term maybe I got the wrong system after all. I don't yet know how good the Canon R5 really is and they don't have big RF primes yet but we'll see who gets there first. What is obvious though is that Canon is now miles ahead on animal AF, and that really changes how you shoot. No longer having to move a focus area around with a joystick is a big deal, just as big as eye AF was for shooting humans.
p.56 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
randomguy wrote:
Having a sensor with many megapixels does not mean you have to have big file size. Sony could introduce mraw and sraw just like Canon and Nikon. Then you can use one camera and choose depending on what you want.
The issues with shooting action is that if you try to frame to tight you end up clipping bodyparts of your subject a lot. This is in fact the main reason I mess up my shots. And if you shoot with primes the action is not always positioned perfectly for you, so in my opinion having a little leeway is a good idea. It also gives you flexibility when framing in post. Cropping is the standard and at 6k resolution there is not that much room for cropping before you can't even fill the screen on a 4k or 5k monitor.
Having 2 cameras one for high res and another for action is not optimal. If you use the high res one you risk loosing out on action and if you use the action camera you loose resolution. Plus it is just more crap to buy and drag around which I believe most of us would prefer not to.
If Sony doesn't get this then in the long term maybe I got the wrong system after all. I don't yet know how good the Canon R5 really is and they don't have big RF primes yet but we'll see who gets there first. What is obvious though is that Canon is now miles ahead on animal AF, and that really changes how you shoot. No longer having to move a focus area around with a joystick is a big deal, just as big as eye AF was for shooting humans....Show more →
"If Sony doesn't get this"
Hybris. Obviously the majority have a different opinion, or don't you think Sony isn't talking to ambassadors, pros etc. to find out market needs? The A7riv does what 99.9% need and describe, here. The AF is very good and sufficient for wildlife with the exception of the most demanding BIF shooters. Would it be wise to design an A9r for this 0.1% group of people? I doubt it.
p.56 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
If Sony were able to increase the performance of the current stacked sensor and/or cpu to allow for a higher resolution A9 I think plenty of people would buy it. I've been waiting for one for years and like so many others was disappointed when the A9II was announced with the same 24mp sensor and not the rumored 33mp or 36mp. I was ready to pre-order the A9II if they increased the resolution but stuck with my A7RIV instead.
The main reason I recently purchased the Canon R5 was that I was hoping to get near A9 performance but with resolution closer to my A7RIV. I'm hoping Sony's next sport camera is similar to the rumored A9R. They can price it higher than the current $4500 A9II, probably more in-line with the $6500 Canon 1DX Mark III. I think many pro sports and Olympics photographers would love the additional resolution while maintaining top tier AF performance if Sony has the tech to make it happen.
Holger wrote:
"If Sony doesn't get this"
Hybris. Obviously the majority have a different opinion, or don't you think Sony isn't talking to ambassadors, pros etc. to find out market needs? The A7riv does what 99.9% need and describe, here. The AF is very good and sufficient for wildlife with the exception of the most demanding BIF shooters. Would it be wise to design an A9r for this 0.1% group of people? I doubt it.
p.56 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
"If Sony doesn't get this"
Hybris. Obviously the majority have a different opinion, or don't you think Sony isn't talking to ambassadors, pros etc. to find out market needs? The A7riv does what 99.9% need and describe, here. The AF is very good and sufficient for wildlife with the exception of the most demanding BIF shooters. Would it be wise to design an A9r for this 0.1% group of people? I doubt it.
You sound just like the Canon defence league back in the days when Canon had crappy DR. Why should they design a camera for the 0.1% who need more DR? You don't know it is 0.1% and regardless of how many there actually is, this is a group that spends a huge amount of money per person compared to the other "99.9%". There are probably more people with big lenses and expensive cameras at popular wildlife shooting locations around the world every day than there are at the big sport arrangements which are fewer and further apart.
Regardless the issue here is not what Sony should or shouldn't do. The fact is that some of us will not be married to a brand but will pick whatever tools that best suit us. It is up to Sony to decide for themselves if that market is worth going after or not. And the fact that Sony has released a bunch of big telephoto lenses lately is a strong indication they want a part of that market.
p.56 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
randomguy wrote:
You sound just like the Canon defence league back in the days when Canon had crappy DR. Why should they design a camera for the 0.1% who need more DR? You don't know it is 0.1% and regardless of how many there actually is, this is a group that spends a huge amount of money per person compared to the other "99.9%". There are probably more people with big lenses and expensive cameras at popular wildlife shooting locations around the world every day than there are at the big sport arrangements which are fewer and further apart.
Regardless the issue here is not what Sony should or shouldn't do. The fact is that some of us will not be married to a brand but will pick whatever tools that best suit us. It is up to Sony to decide for themselves if that market is worth going after or not. And the fact that Sony has released a bunch of big telephoto lenses lately is a strong indication they want a part of that market....Show more →
It obviously looks like you got the wrong system and should switch then (until Sony comes out with something great and people switch back again), as the a7riv doesn't provide the ultimate AF you "deserve" and need ;-).
We have a problem here many companies face: product portfolio/diversification. There are smart people at Sony doing the polls and research and finally deciding. Of course there are people knowing it better ;-) I like Sonys approach in going for video-centric (A7s-line), high-res landscape (A7r-line) and performance (sports) line (A9). Their jack of all trades is the A7-line, with a A7iv imminent (more than 24MP are probable), shortly an entry level A5 line is coming.
Many cameras overlap in features and even AF in the A7riv is fantastic and good enough for most wildlife stuff including demanding BIF, as people here in the forums demonstrate regularly, even with non-pro slower lenses like the 200-600. Why should Sony mess up their portfolio by introducing an A9r doing everything as good as the specialists, similarly to the effort Canon tried with the R5 (but failed in my opinion - see reports on AF in electronic mode, fps depending battery, grip, lens aperture etc, video limitations )?
p.56 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
AlphaPhotography wrote:
If Sony were able to increase the performance of the current stacked sensor and/or cpu to allow for a higher resolution A9 I think plenty of people would buy it. I've been waiting for one for years and like so many others was disappointed when the A9II was announced with the same 24mp sensor and not the rumored 33mp or 36mp. I was ready to pre-order the A9II if they increased the resolution but stuck with my A7RIV instead.
The main reason I recently purchased the Canon R5 was that I was hoping to get near A9 performance but with resolution closer to my A7RIV. I'm hoping Sony's next sport camera is similar to the rumored A9R. They can price it higher than the current $4500 A9II, probably more in-line with the $6500 Canon 1DX Mark III. I think many pro sports and Olympics photographers would love the additional resolution while maintaining top tier AF performance if Sony has the tech to make it happen.
"I think many pro sports and Olympics photographers would love the additional resolution while maintaining top tier AF performance if Sony has the tech to make it happen."
Speculation.
All the people I asked so far and talked with declined that. Why do you think the 1dxiii and D5/D6 or A9ii didn't boast MP if so many sport photographers having to meet deadlines wanted that?
p.56 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
It obviously looks like you got the wrong system and should switch then (until Sony comes out with something great and people switch back again), as the a7riv doesn't provide the ultimate AF you "deserve" and need ;-).
I wish you could have kept your feelings out of this instead of insinuating that people who don't agree with you are entitled. We're living in market economies. People buy the products they want. It has nothing to do with what they feel they "deserve" or "need. Fact is nobody needs cameras at all if you want to go there....
Even so, I never said I am switching in fact I said to me the R5 is still unproven and they don't yet have the RF lenses I want. Investing in EF lenses which is kinda outdated now is not how I would spend my money.
We have a problem here many companies face: product portfolio/diversification. There are smart people at Sony doing the polls and research and finally deciding. Of course there are people knowing it better ;-) I like Sonys approach in going for video-centric (A7s-line), high-res landscape (A7r-line) and performance (sports) line (A9). Their jack of all trades is the A7-line, with a A7iv imminent (more than 24MP are probable), shortly an entry level A5 line is coming.
And it sounds like you are one of the ones who think they know the best product portfolio. I think it is likely that the R5 is going to outsell A7R4 during its lifetime by a wide margin. Partly because it has a Canon logo but even so, people will choose it over the R6 because they want the extra resolution.
Many cameras overlap in features and even AF in the A7riv is fantastic and good enough for most wildlife stuff including demanding BIF, as people here in the forums demonstrate regularly, even with non-pro slower lenses like the 200-600. Why should Sony mess up their portfolio by introducing an A9r doing everything as good as the specialists, similarly to the effort Canon tried with the R5 (but failed in my opinion - see reports on AF in electronic mode, fps depending battery, grip, lens aperture etc, video limitations )?
You opinion in this case doesn't matter to me unless you demonstrate you are a skilled wildlife photographer who know and have experience with the performance of both systems in real life instead of getting hung up on spec sheets. It is not like the a7 series shoots 10fps regardless of setting either, nor do they ever go higher regardless of what you do. And Sony animal EYE AF is currently more or less useless.
p.56 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
"I think many pro sports and Olympics photographers would love the additional resolution while maintaining top tier AF performance if Sony has the tech to make it happen."
Speculation.
All the people I asked so far and talked with declined that. Why do you think the 1dxiii and D5/D6 or A9ii didn't boast MP if so many sport photographers having to meet deadlines wanted that?
I see the same thing. Yet when I hear their arguments what they actually are saying is that they don't want large *file* sizes. Jpeg, heif, mraw and sraw can easily take care of that.
In fact you could easily make a firmware which always delivers 12MP files even if you are in crop mode or not, even when you have a high res sensor. If you then had for instance a 48 megapixel sensor you could go to 2x crop mode and still deliver 12MP files, like having a 2x teleconverter you could instantly switch on at the flick of a button. If you formulate it like that, do you still think they do not want more megapixels? I see Patrick Murphy Racey always going on and on about how much he loves the crop mode...
p.56 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I kinda see a transition between photographer's skills and machine's skills. Once we were required to work on ourselves, now we demand machines to learn and do the job for us.
It's not anymore a "tech can help me doing less fatigue", it's more a "don't want to sweat at all, please take all the burden and let me only click shutter button". It's a change of paradigm launched somehow by Sony itself, and now the crown looks like in Canon's plans and hands, but I am not sure it is a good thing for us.
I don't find what currently exist on market anything missing from what we need. Sure, a 36mp A9r I wull buy today instead of an A7RIII or IV, I think it would be all I am (sometimes) missing now. I won't look for 40+ mp if it means losing any speed. But I won't change system to get a 1% more and lose many other things.
p.56 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
The 0.1% might be what Thom Hogan refers to as a «halo product». In that case Sony needs it. Sony and Canon both need to deliver the latest and greatest tech. They both need to be on the «bleeding edge». Once upon a time white Canon superteles with USM motors was this 0.1%. Cameras should get 5g connectivity, btw. I doubt Nikon has the resources to follow Sony and Canon. Likely Panasonic will, if they can actually decide to get moving.
An observation. I visited an electronics store megamarket type thing. (Elkjøp/Elgiganten for Scandinavians reading this.) There were three camera brands on display, Canon, Panasonic and Sony. A couple of Olympus lenses were leftovers, and Nikon was nowhere to be seen.
About relying on technology. Thinking that relying on AI like eye-AF, animal eye-AF, smile detection, to do the job should somehow be wrong is misplaced. It reminds me of several old debates, AF vs MF, motordrives vs manual film advance, digital vs film, DSLR vs mirrorless. It’s still the photographer who decides when to push the shutter button and which images to use. => Various AI technologies will enter common use. And there will be more of them, that we don’t even know today.
p.56 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Holger wrote:
"I think many pro sports and Olympics photographers would love the additional resolution while maintaining top tier AF performance if Sony has the tech to make it happen."
Speculation.
All the people I asked so far and talked with declined that. Why do you think the 1dxiii and D5/D6 or A9ii didn't boast MP if so many sport photographers having to meet deadlines wanted that?
The 24mp of the A9 is more than enough and the priority isn't resolution, it's the ability to capture the right moment i.e. burst rate combined with tack sharp focus.
The R5 is good but it compromises hit rate for resolution. It's just not as good at locking onto a subject as quickly and accurately as an A9.
But for subjects that don't require as much AF stickability as the 9, the R5 does produce a more detailed shot.
p.56 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Automation is in general a very broad topic, as it brings its own set of challenges together with all its goodies ... but it is spreading everywhere in todays world. As for photography, I think a lot of the skill has been taken away because of evermore "intelligent" cameras, phones, apps or even sensors... Seeing how I take pictures and remembering how my father used to (he was a Canon guy btw ), it's a vastly different photo-world we're living in now...
p.56 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
randomguy wrote:
Having a sensor with many megapixels does not mean you have to have big file size. Sony could introduce mraw and sraw just like Canon and Nikon. Then you can use one camera and choose depending on what you want.
The issues with shooting action is that if you try to frame to tight you end up clipping bodyparts of your subject a lot. This is in fact the main reason I mess up my shots. And if you shoot with primes the action is not always positioned perfectly for you, so in my opinion having a little leeway is a good idea. It also gives you flexibility when framing in post. Cropping is the standard and at 6k resolution there is not that much room for cropping before you can't even fill the screen on a 4k or 5k monitor.
Having 2 cameras one for high res and another for action is not optimal. If you use the high res one you risk loosing out on action and if you use the action camera you loose resolution. Plus it is just more crap to buy and drag around which I believe most of us would prefer not to.
If Sony doesn't get this then in the long term maybe I got the wrong system after all. I don't yet know how good the Canon R5 really is and they don't have big RF primes yet but we'll see who gets there first. What is obvious though is that Canon is now miles ahead on animal AF, and that really changes how you shoot. No longer having to move a focus area around with a joystick is a big deal, just as big as eye AF was for shooting humans....Show more →
mraw and sraw actually include more of processing bottleneck because the camera has to downres the native resolution before writing to raw....so it is not an ideal solution for an action oriented camera. This is the case with the smaller raw sizes in Canikon cameras now.
The R5 is a jack of all trades, master of none type camera IMO. It's trying to be a high resolution camera, an action camera, and a video camera....and its bringing all the compromises involved with each into a single body. So yes it can do a lot, but it does all of those things sub-optimally. It reminds of compact "sport" suv's like the BMW X6, Acura XDX, etc etc. They look cool, but don't have the utility and seating of a true SUV, and don't perform as well as a true sports car.
... but it is spreading everywhere in todays world. As for photography, I think a lot of the skill has been taken away because of evermore "intelligent" cameras, phones, apps or even sensors... Seeing how I take pictures and remembering how my father used to (he was a Canon guy btw 
), it's a vastly different photo-world we're living in now...