p.52 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
milkod2001 wrote:
Thanks for the link, interesting read indeed. It looks to me that Canon at last moment either run into supply issue with thermal pads and other materials but decided to rush products anyway or someone not on engineering level very likely management made a quick call to cheap out on materials to save on overall cost.
The reason is irrelevant now. It will be interesting to see how Canon is going to deal with it. Firmware is not going to fix all unless they completely disable 8k, and leave 4k with very low settings available. That's no go since they have advertised camera as 8k capable. So Canon can either stop production, work on quick fix and come with excuse they have nothing left in stock since demand is very strong or just recall all units and offer updated fixed model within a few months. ...Show more →
They honestly will have to recall if enough teardowns happen exposing their incompetent engineering, or they are opening themselves up to class action litigation. It will be very interesting to watch.
p.52 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
milkod2001 wrote:
Thanks for the link, interesting read indeed. It looks to me that Canon at last moment either run into supply issue with thermal pads and other materials but decided to rush products anyway or someone not on engineering level very likely management made a quick call to cheap out on materials to save on overall cost.
The reason is irrelevant now. It will be interesting to see how Canon is going to deal with it. Firmware is not going to fix all unless they completely disable 8k, and leave 4k with very low settings available. That's no go since they have advertised camera as 8k capable. So Canon can either stop production, work on quick fix and come with excuse they have nothing left in stock since demand is very strong or just recall all units and offer updated fixed model within a few months. ...Show more →
Or maybe Canon lacks skilled electronics engineering staff...after all they are a mechanical and optical company.
p.52 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
chez wrote:
Or maybe Canon lacks skilled electronics engineering staff...after all they are a mechanical and optical company.
Lol, no, i bet they had perfectly functional beta cameras but something went wrong on production lines. There is no way they would have been working on cameras for at least 1 year and nobody would have noticed they are overheating.
An interesting look at the guts, and at the suspect layout/cooling design around the CPU.
Well, after reading the article I have to side with the fanboys - this seems very, very sketchy of Canon:
* all the evidence point in the direction of artificial limit on the recording time.
Now, the question why the artificial limit was introduced is not that easy:
* issue in production, which results in faulty cooling (as shown by the breakdown)
* bad design of cooling mechanism
* protecting the camera from heat (because of previous points)
* intentionally crippling video capabilities to protect the sales of other or future models (that is supposedly a Canon thing ) while basing advertising on said capabilities.
p.52 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
milkod2001 wrote:
Lol, no, i bet they had perfectly functional beta cameras but something went wrong on production lines. There is no way they would have been working on cameras for at least 1 year and nobody would have noticed they are overheating.
Something went wrong in production? This is Canon for God sake, they aint amateurs. Something like this is intentional or calculation mistake during design.
p.52 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
This was a marketing blunder for Canon that starts all the way at the beginning of the product concept process. They wanted to bring a product to market that checks all the boxes at once...almost like they let gearheads design a unicorn product, and they actually tried to deliver on it even though there are engineering and technical limitations. Like that old school episode of the Simpsons where Homer's twin brother let him design a car that was may for the everyday person lol.
45MP! 20FPS! 8K Video! Make it a compact mirrorless camera! It created a lot of hype because it sounded to good to be true...and when you see all the limitations built into the camera to keep it from destroying itself, you realize it really is too good to be true. They wanted to come into the FF mirrorless market hot...with a product that is fire...and bring the heat to sony. Mission accomplished.
Jokes aside Canon has the chops to build a good camera....we all know that. And the R5 and R6 are pretty damn good cameras if you live within their limitations. They are just now learning the lessons that Sony learned with the a7rII. Don't write a check you can't cash in terms of your marketing. Don't try to make a one size fits all camera. Better to have special purpose cameras that get their jobs done than to have one camera try to do everything sub-optimally. a7s may only shoot 4k video and 12mp stills, a7rIV may only burst at 10fps, a9 may only have 24mp. But they all excel where they are intended to.
p.52 #7 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
j4nu wrote:
Well, it depends on what you consider fun
Since you use Canon RP already, could you tell me what are you thoughts on operatiing the camera / menu responsiveness/ typical usage which includes taking photos, diving to playback/review or menu to change some setting, getting back to taking photos, etc. ? I mean general usage which involves something more than only pressing the shutter .
I'm wondering if the experience is similar to what what we have in Sony or different in any way...
It should be noted that I never had an RP prior to now so my experience is only with the most recent firmware.
The level of responsiveness is much better than I was anticipating for a body with old tech that I paid well under 1k for. In all honesty, I fully expected that the UI would be much laggier to get through in regular usage. In actuality, it has been plenty responsive and never bad enough that I stopped to take note of how bad it was/is.
Not sure if this is just me being pleasantly surprised and subconsciously managing reality versus expectation but I walked into the RP not expecting much at all. More than anything, I just wanted a body with acceptable IQ to use these two lenses with until I could figure out which new RF body I'd be getting.
As far as usage goes, I've found AF to be better than I was anticipating (was expecting worse) with regard to speed, accuracy, tracking, eye/face detection, setting tracking, etc. While it is obviously no A9, I have found it to be accurate and definitely usable speedwise with both RF and adapted lenses. In all reality, I'm happier shooting EF lenses on the RP than I ever was when I still had DSLRs and can only imagine I'll be even happier once I get an R5/6.
Some things I've taken note of that I really like are the much more usable touch interface as it offers much more functionality than the Sony and Fuji implementation. You can actually scroll the menus and touch specific items within those menus. Using the touch screen to scroll focus during shooting and playback are also surprisingly responsive.
I have really liked the fully articulating screen (surprisingly so) as I have been accustomed to only having what the Sony's offer plus the Fuji version on the GFX which lifts laterally as well but never fully articulating.
As stated previously, I really love having in-body raw processing as this is something that I have gotten very used to having with the Fuji's since the X100 and X-T1 days. I would love to see it be more expansive in the R lineup but already really appreciate what is offered in the RP.
Something I was surprised by but didn't realize until the body had shipped a few weeks ago was that the RP doesn't have an actual full mechanical shutter and instead, only has EFCS. Additionally, it maxes out at 1/4000th. Combine these factors with the fact that there is no full electronic shutter mode outside of the auto/P shooting mode and you will pretty much find yourself having to carry filters around (which I've haven't done in years). I should note that I would have realistic expectations with the slow readout of the RP in ES mode. But I'd still like to have access to it without being required to be in auto to do so.
I can't speak to the menu organization differences as I have to deep dive into three different system's menus regularly and am now familiar with all of them. In this sense, it is difficult for me to say which one is organized better or worse since I know where I need to go in all of them already. I would imagine this would be a better question to be answered by someone who has no experience with any of the menus prior to assessment.
One other thing I've taken note of is how heavy lenses feel on the RP. I'm assuming it has to do with the grip (which I've never really taken issue with on the Sony's), but it definitely feels noticeably better in the hand that all of the Sony and Fuji bodies I have had. As a frame of reference, it is more comfortable for me to hold the RP with 28-70/2 than the A9 with Sigma 105/1.4 which are pretty similar in size and not far off from each other in weight. Similarly, it is more comfortable for me to hold the RP with 50/1.2 than the A9 with 35/1.2 which also appear to be similar in size and not far off in weight. And lastly, just for being an apples to apples comparison for my own curiosity, I mounted the same EF lenses to both bodies and came to the same conclusion regarding comfort/feel.
Only other thing I can mention at the moment would be IQ. I haven't pushed the RP files much but haven't noticed them to be egregiously bad in any way. I will need to spend some more time in post with the raw files to get a better feel but I have been happy with the final images I've been getting just processed SOOC. This will ultimately be moot for me in the next month though since I'll probably be dumping the RP once I get one of the new R bodies (likely the R5).
I get that most of the things I've stated above are pure YMMV type things. But I thought it could be of value to other Sony shooters who might be looking that way as well to hear from someone who has been shooting Sony mirrorless since the original A7R (and an avid naysayer of Canon tech ).
p.52 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
With regard to the R5 and the heating issues that are being talked about ad nauseam, I personally wish Canon would just release a stills only version, add a few stills focused features, and charge 3k.
Not that any of this matters to me at all regarding video, but I can at least understand the gripe many have had with the initial marketing of the cameras versus what they can actually do. I do appreciate however, that Canon has given what appears to be solid testing data regarding the limitations which have been verified by reviewers and other testers.
On another note, I didn't realize how many people relied on non-cinema bodies to do cinema things without any restrictions and the grave effects it would have on their ability to accomplish what they do. Am I just imagining things or has there been a major uptick in vocal cinematographers on the web since Canon announced these bodies?
p.52 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
JohnDizzo15 wrote:
I get that most of the things I've stated above are pure YMMV type things. But I thought it could be of value to other Sony shooters who might be looking that way as well to hear from someone who has been shooting Sony mirrorless since the original A7R (and an avid naysayer of Canon tech ).
Thanks! Much appreciated, especially considering how hard it is to find something unbiased nowadays .
p.52 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
A huge amount of people are using consumer grade cameras for professional 4K video work. The user base of FM isn’t indicative of that group though.
JohnDizzo15 wrote:
On another note, I didn't realize how many people relied on non-cinema bodies to do cinema things without any restrictions and the grave effects it would have on their ability to accomplish what they do. Am I just imagining things or has there been a major uptick in vocal cinematographers on the web since Canon announced these bodies?
p.52 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Its not like recording with fixed limitation but unknown limitations, the amount of time needed to overheat varies and the amount of time needed to rest the camera is unclear. After you rest the camera, the recording time is reduced greatly. This is not restriction, more like bad design.
There are a lot of usage Scenario for a great mirrorless cam with great video specs. Not all can afford a “cinema camera” and you dont have to be a “cinematographer” to require this kind of camera. I’m sure its not hard to imagine
p.52 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
frezeiss wrote:
Something went wrong in production? This is Canon for God sake, they aint amateurs. Something like this is intentional or calculation mistake during design.
Well Canon has probably made the most reliable cameras ever compared to competition. Canon's cameras just work but even Canon had made mistakes in the past. There were issues with 1D3 , 7D2 and other models so mistakes/fups happen. You can intentionally cripple some specs as Canon did in the past,we all know that but you never come with new model, say it can do this and that months before releasing camera and then just come with half baked product. You don't do that intentionally. It's just another fup which can happen to any company.
p.52 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
It's actually funny, because in my use case I'd be fine with the current limitations of R5 for video (the only thing I shoot are my kids running around and for that a single clip of 2-3 minutes is often enough ).
The thing that bothers me though are the shady things that come up together with the overheating issue:
* cooling the camera has no effect on the timer
* the camera does not report it's actual temperature
* removing memory cards removes the overheating warning
* things shown by the breakdown of the camera
It just looks like a lot of effort has been made to cover up the issue, so it seems a mistake in the camera design/production process has been made somewhere in the pipeline (and we still have to pay for the video function) ...
I still think it's a nice camera though .
p.52 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
j4nu wrote:
Thanks! Much appreciated, especially considering how hard it is to find something unbiased nowadays .
Agreed. Strange times we're living in.
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RoamingScott wrote:
A huge amount of people are using consumer grade cameras for professional 4K video work. The user base of FM isn’t indicative of that group though.
Totally understand and respect that. In that sense, I would imagine that if it were me, I wouldn't be batting an eye at the R5 if those were my needs. Conversely, I also wouldn't be the guy speaking ill of the A7S3 because it couldn't shoot 45mp still images.
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frezeiss wrote:
Its not like recording with fixed limitation but unknown limitations, the amount of time needed to overheat varies and the amount of time needed to rest the camera is unclear. After you rest the camera, the recording time is reduced greatly. This is not restriction, more like bad design.
There are a lot of usage Scenario for a great mirrorless cam with great video specs. Not all can afford a “cinema camera” and you dont have to be a “cinematographer” to require this kind of camera. I’m sure its not hard to imagine
I definitely understand these points as well. However, and I'm no expert here, there appears to be some info around the web from some testers now that show that at least in the 4k modes, there are much less restrictions if recording externally if you need longer run times. Also, that temperature issue works in both directions from what I have seen. If I recall correctly, the R5 has been found to be pretty much unaffected by external conditions with regard to the internal temperature. There are pros and cons to this, and clearly, the high-end video features suffer here.
Again though, as stated above, if my needs aren't met by this body or any other, I wouldn't be shopping it. I suppose this is where my disconnect is with those that have been very negatively vocal on the matter. If I need 4K in the way that many have expressed, there are a plethora of other options to include what appears to be a near perfect one in the A7S3. Conversely though (as stated above), I wouldn't be knocking said body because it doesn't shoot 45mp images or because it doesn't have over 1000 AF points across 100% of the frame, etc etc. I would just go and look for a body that better fits my needs.
p.52 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
What I find most striking about the Canon R5/R6 release is how many photographers (people I personally know and never use video) became videographers overnight.
Also here on FM I've never seen this much talk about video. It's usually more about photography.
p.52 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Jochenb wrote:
What I find most striking about the Canon R5/R6 release is how many photographers (people I personally know and never use video) became videographers overnight.
Also here on FM I've never seen this much talk about video. It's usually more about photography.
I figure everyone likes to tinker with the occasional video, where both cameras can be problematic (who is buying this camera and NOT going to try out the 8K or 4K 120?). Canon has been marketing towards the video crowd, hence the revolt going on by outspoken video junkies. Thankfully, Sony made my life so much easier with the A7siii, come september, I'll be in hog heaven
p.52 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Jochenb wrote:
What I find most striking about the Canon R5/R6 release is how many photographers (people I personally know and never use video) became videographers overnight.
Also here on FM I've never seen this much talk about video. It's usually more about photography.
"(people I personally know and never use video) became videographers overnight"
I guess pandemic shut-in might be a a cause for the increase in forum experts. I know I've become a lot smarter...LMAO
p.52 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Charlie N wrote:
I figure everyone likes to tinker with the occasional video, where both cameras can be problematic (who is buying this camera and NOT going to try out the 8K or 4K 120?).
This guy.
I can honestly say that I have yet to shoot 4K in any of my bodies that have it or have had it (R2, R3, A9, multiple Fuji’s, and now RP etc).
Also, I don’t think anyone who is simply trying out or playing around with those modes for grins are going to find the overheating limitations to be problematic (by in large). Those file sizes and their corresponding write speeds, even in a body that could handle them for extended periods would require the other parts of the chain that can handle them like the CFExpress cards which most people don’t have any or an abundance of (considering the still currently exorbitant cost).
Out of curiosity, I’d be very curious to see a show of hands of everyone that has expressed a need for extended 8K or 4K 120 video to find out how many have a CFExpress card that could handle storage of a longer than R5 clip capability right now?
By my rough estimation, one could get about 6.5 minutes of 8K All-I 30P or 4.5 minutes of 4K All-I 120p with a 512gb card ($550 USD). Kind of a heavy lift for most people that are just curious and wanting to play.
p.52 #19 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
If I can't sell it to a client I won't shoot it. I've had clients where I'm bolting cameras on the inside of real aircraft to record different actions and record the controls on other cameras. My number one rule I'll shoot it because that's what I do but will not edit it.
But I don't care about 8k or any of that stuff. If there is revenue in it and no editing involved I'll shoot it otherwise hire a Pro video guy. This really sounds like junk.
p.52 #20 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
JohnDizzo15 wrote:
This guy.
I can honestly say that I have yet to shoot 4K in any of my bodies that have it or have had it (R2, R3, A9, multiple Fuji’s, and now RP etc).
Also, I don’t think anyone who is simply trying out or playing around with those modes for grins are going to find the overheating limitations to be problematic (by in large). Those file sizes and their corresponding write speeds, even in a body that could handle them for extended periods would require the other parts of the chain that can handle them like the CFExpress cards which most people don’t have any or an abundance of (considering the still currently exorbitant cost).
Out of curiosity, I’d be very curious to see a show of hands of everyone that has expressed a need for extended 8K or 4K 120 video to find out how many have a CFExpress card that could handle storage of a longer than R5 clip capability right now?
By my rough estimation, one could get about 6.5 minutes of 8K All-I 30P or 4.5 minutes of 4K All-I 120p with a 512gb card ($550 USD). Kind of a heavy lift for most people that are just curious and wanting to play. ...Show more →
I think your estimations are off, 1300mbps = 9.75 GB per minute for 8K, and 1880mbps = 14GB/m for 4K 120 (you probably have your bits and bytes mixed up)
Jordan from DPR: "I also found myself heavily rationing the 4K/120P as it really chews up your remaining shooting minutes. I spent two minutes capturing the seagull footage in the episode: beforehand I the camera said it would shoot 15 minutes of 4K HQ, when I returned I had only five minutes remaining!"
Gerald Undone: "More bad news about the R5. Every minute that you spend taking photos with it reduces the time you can shoot HQ video. Today I shot photos for 1 hour in 30C summer weather, and by the end of it, I switched to video and the overheat warning was on and 0 mins remaining due to heat."
Vistek, one of the first to use the R5 and post a review. "Couldnt record 8K for the test because it overheated" - The camera overheated without any 8K recording.
essentially, it's a camera with a buffer bar that decreases as soon as it's turn on, like the Sony lifeline bar. Once depleted, it's a total PITA, except you dont have to do anything for it to deplete.
) while basing advertising on said capabilities.
).