p.18 #1 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Fred Miranda wrote:
Even if the new Canon R5's 8K shooting is rudimentary (overheating, expensive), we must applaud Canon for innovating.
Currently 8k is not mainstream but just like 4k, it will be used by everyone soon. Canon just have to perfect it now.
Yep, but not so sure about the ‚soon‘. I work in TV/media and we will definitely see a R5 successor before 8K is widely adopted:
- on average people replace TV sets every 7-8 years or so. Even if all models sold were 8K now, we would be looking at 3-4 years before there would be a decent market penetration of 8K
- broadcasting 8K requires too much bandwidth and won’t happen broadly on DTH. Streaming will adopt it more quickly, but that requires a change in viewing behavior for many. It will happen eventually, but takes time.
I think this criticism of the R5 video specs & overheating will die down quickly once people have it in their hands and experience the downsampled 4K and 4K/120
p.18 #2 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
My problem with 8K is that my eye can't resolve it. HD to 4k makes a huge difference, but at 4K the pixels are so small I can no longer see the individual pixels. And when it comes to video you watch the whole view from a reasonable distance, you don't zoom in to 200%, view it from nose distance or use a loupe to study details as some seem to do with stills. Don't think my eyesight will improve either so doubt I'll ever bother with a 8k screen.
Still I would find more resolution than 4k is useful, it gives the opportunity to crop or stabilize in post. 6k could be a more reasonable compromise between file size and capabilities.
p.18 #3 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Fred Miranda wrote:
Even if the new Canon R5's 8K shooting is rudimentary (overheating, expensive), we must applaud Canon for innovating.
Currently 8k is not mainstream but just like 4k, it will be used by everyone soon. Canon just have to perfect it now.
Exactly.
Moore's law is still providing us with reliable info on where the tech will be at any given time.
We can extrapolate to see that 8K computing for workflow won't be an issue.
We capture 8K (very rarely) and process it using 4K proxy files in an old PC running Win7 and, iirc either or both an old DaVinci Resolve, v12 or 13 and Premiere Pro CS6.
The computer is the equivalent to the Mac Pro from ~2015.
Costs for displays will continue to reduce as they always have.
Canon will I'm sure at least offer one firmware update which may (I believe will) offer better temperature handling.
p.18 #4 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
fjablo wrote:
Yep, but not so sure about the ‚soon‘. I work in TV/media and we will definitely see a R5 successor before 8K is widely adopted:
- on average people replace TV sets every 7-8 years or so. Even if all models sold were 8K now, we would be looking at 3-4 years before there would be a decent market penetration of 8K
- broadcasting 8K requires too much bandwidth and won’t happen broadly on DTH. Streaming will adopt it more quickly, but that requires a change in viewing behavior for many. It will happen eventually, but takes time.
I think this criticism of the R5 video specs & overheating will die down quickly once people have it in their hands and experience the downsampled 4K and 4K/120 ...Show more →
Absolutely. In Germany, for example, there is not even 4k mainstream broadcasting. Only Netflix and Co. or Pay-TV are providing some limited options. I know only very few people owing a 4k tv (shooting weddings, we furthermore see many many living rooms ;-).
I don't know about the US, but at the distances people are watching TV, the difference of 4k to a good hd broadcast is visible but not huge. We are far far from 8k. For 8k, additionally, like you, I don't see any benefit for the consumer. I won't buy a larger TV than the one I have now. You just have a limited amount of space, so what would I gain?
I see benefit for the producer, in being able to crop etc.
p.18 #5 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
RoamingScott wrote:
These were the EXACT arguments against 4K. People are hopelessly shortsighted when it comes to the speed of tech adoption.
In part, but that goes a bit too short. Many consumers here fall for marketing and overbuy benefits. Things may become standard not only because it provides real benefits (HD-4k), but often because industry needs to sell products and generates demand. 4k -> 8k TVs don't really give us a new experience given the average size of TVs. Thats different for producers.
98% of people use laptops, computers, smartphones with capabilities they never make use of or need. I do simulations on super computers with thousands of PEs or GPUs, need to juggle with Terabytes of data making a 4k video Kindergarten work in comparison, high end visualisations demanding huge amounts of memory etc. and need every last grain of performance. But I am in the minority. The rest using Excel, Word etc. and playing a casual game doesn't.
But the rest usually thinks they know what tech is about and what you "need" and need to "adapt".
p.18 #6 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I notice there's so much attention on the 8K feature, even from people that hardly ever do any video. Reminds me of the launch of the 5D mark II back in the day.
Anyway, 8K is coming, you can all use the same theories as to why 8K won't follow on from 4K and HD before it, or why 5G is hafmul because it's a slightly different wavelength than 4G, but it's coming. Guess what? 8K will be superseded by some higher resolution standard and we 'wont need that' either.
As for 'cameras don't need video', those have been coming since Nikon first released a DSLR with HD video.
p.18 #8 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Bob_S wrote:
I remember the excuses not to adopt well, who needs 4K, we don't have the monitors, they are too expensive, there's no content anyway, my computer can't edit 4K.
Now YouTubers with 1000 subs are making 4K videos daily/weekly and many have been for at least 5 years.
This is probably more to do with the bandwidth assigned by youtube to videos of different resolutions:
SD movies on optical disks (DVDs) have data rates between 3 Mb/s to 9.5 Mb/s, and FullHD (1080p) movies on blu-ray disks have 54 Mb/s. If youtube offered the same bandwidth to lower-resolution videos, content-producers might not feel the need to go with 4K, but because of bandwidth limitations that the site assigns to FullHD and SD content, they do notice a significant quality improvement with 4K. But I believe the main reason is the bandwidth used, not the resolution of the video, and is an entirely artificial limitation.
p.18 #9 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
indusphoto wrote:
The key to R5 specs is sensor read speed (or data throughput). In this aspect, canon has leapfrogged competition similar to how Apple did with iPhone back in 2006. This is why Canon was comfortable announcing the specs months before release without fearing competitive catchup.
Given that Sony makes sensors for pretty much all other major players, we can not expect a camera with competing specs, from any vendor, until Sony semiconductor can produce a sensor with similar read speed.
Canon has not leapfrogged anything beyond 8K. The Canon sensors including the 20 MP in 1D MarkIII and 45 MP in R5 does certainly not have the read speed of the Sony A9 / A9II sensor. By far not. The 1D MarkIII have substantial rolling shutter and a much slower sensor read out speed.
So what you write is wrong.
What Canon has is a bigger buffer for the files before they are written to the memory cards.
p.18 #10 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
David Cartagena wrote:
Canon has not leapfrogged anything beyond 8K. The Canon sensors including the 20 MP in 1D MarkIII and 45 MP in R5 does certainly not have the read speed of the Sony A9 / A9II sensor. By far not. The 1D MarkIII have substantial rolling shutter and a much slower sensor read out speed.
So what you write is wrong.
What Canon has is a bigger buffer for the files before they are written to the memory cards.
David
Not only that, but I see no indication now or in the near future that neither Canon nor Nikon will present any real threat to the a9/ii
p.18 #11 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
David Cartagena wrote:
Canon has not leapfrogged anything beyond 8K. The Canon sensors including the 20 MP in 1D MarkIII and 45 MP in R5 does certainly not have the read speed of the Sony A9 / A9II sensor. By far not. The 1D MarkIII have substantial rolling shutter and a much slower sensor read out speed.
So what you write is wrong.
What Canon has is a bigger buffer for the files before they are written to the memory cards.
David
And that is one thing I'm interested in, for video, the thing the A9 does very well and I'm not so sure the R5 will do very well is to control distortion in video that's down to sensor read out time (mostly visible as rolling shutter issues).
If you've got rolling shutter issues you've got even fewer reasons to own an R5.
If you video moving subjects and the sensor read out is slow, you probably should be using an A9.
The A9 also has AMAZING AF during video. It finds and hangs onto what you need all the way to the edges of the frame, effortlessly, tenaciously.
Nothing else competes in my experience. The 4K footage is also glorious, easily upscales to 6K -no issues.
p.18 #12 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Sure
In my view Sony thinks of a7rIV as a body for high resolution applications, from the way they have carved out their line of bodies. Its not exactly in the D850 space or a hypothetical a9R space. Can it do it all? Yes of course.
I think a9 is their all purpose body even thought they seem to slot it as an action oriented body (which is not wrong).
MedicineMan404 wrote:
Nanda you're right. It sucks at astro, macro, splash, BIF, landscaping. I really should sell the darned thing!
p.18 #13 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Well i got sports shots with A7RIII (no tried with R4 but sure it's even better), landscape, etc. My d810 was mostly a landscape camera. Sports worked, but failed often (AF fine tune and phase detect just not as fast or accurate as mirrorless).
I'm sure A9 is 'crazy' good in Sports af, But A7R4 is damn good. In fact i love real time tracking cause i can point AF point to where i think 'parfocal' area is, it tracks it very well, then i press shutter when composition is good. Works almost every time. that was a different story on DSLR. I had to use slow liveview, and set the focus point to correct area every time.
So in my book A7R4 definitely is jack of all trades.
p.18 #14 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Bob_S wrote:
I'd love to see a demonstration confirming this.
100 of the coldest, crispiest dollar bucks says that's not the case.
Confirming that the still photo IQ is worse? Like every other single Canon in the last six generations of body?
Are you claiming that Canon has suddenly gotten rid of all their sensor IQ issues (banding, lower DR) and now magically has a competitive base-ISO sensor to Sony after 12 years? Based on what?
p.18 #15 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Yep the bandwidth is too often overlooked in these discussions. The usual broadcast and streaming bitrate of UHD is ca 15-35mbit/s (as you wrote), usually around 20mbit/s. An upscaled 1080P blu-ray image with 50mbit/s usually has less artifacts and is (perceived as) just as sharp as a streamed 4K image.
If you start with a sharp, high quality 4K image, this can be easily upscaled to 8K once it becomes more widespread. There will be loss of information compared to native 8K, but it will be very hard to actually see it in a (relatively) low bitrate stream from a reasonable viewing distance.
So the focus on the 8K feature is a bit too much from my point of view.. again there will very likely be an R5 mark ii before 8K is widely adopted and I guess it will be able to record for a longer time before overheating
ilkka_nissila wrote:
This is probably more to do with the bandwidth assigned by youtube to videos of different resolutions:
SD movies on optical disks (DVDs) have data rates between 3 Mb/s to 9.5 Mb/s, and FullHD (1080p) movies on blu-ray disks have 54 Mb/s. If youtube offered the same bandwidth to lower-resolution videos, content-producers might not feel the need to go with 4K, but because of bandwidth limitations that the site assigns to FullHD and SD content, they do notice a significant quality improvement with 4K. But I believe the main reason is the bandwidth used, not the resolution of the video, and is an entirely artificial limitation. ...Show more →
p.18 #16 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
I think 8K is a marketing decision.
The body is not designed for 8k. Will people shoot 8k with this camera? Yes, maybe a few times, just to check it out.
p.18 #17 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
For stills: I can see nothing that compelling or forcing me to switch from my A7R3 to Canon R5. I can wait for better and much improved A7R5 maybe towards the end of next year. Not in big rush.
For video: Canon R6 will very likely replace my A7III if A74 won't show up within 6 months and won't offer 4k60p, improved IBIS and stable / smooth footage as R6 currently does. Again , not in big rush to do sudden switches but also won't be waiting more than 6 months for Sony to wake up.
Canon just become new Sony with offering not crippled cameras as we knew Canon before. I presume sales must have been very slow so Canon had to do something to take a lead again. Kudos to Canon. Now Sony is forced to 'innovate again.'
Jul 14, 2020 at 09:20 AM
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p.18 #18 · Sony-shooters thoughts on the Canon R5/R6
Fred Miranda wrote:
Even if the new Canon R5's 8K shooting is rudimentary (overheating, expensive), we must applaud Canon for innovating.
Currently 8k is not mainstream but just like 4k, it will be used by everyone soon. Canon just have to perfect it now.
canon is playing catch-up in the 8k game, and since they can't compete with sony sensors and technology, they are desperately trying to find an 8k niche in the prosumer realm.
canon 8k will be a repeat of how they were an early adapter of dslr video, then failed miserably at it from then on, due to their usual cripple hammer... milc companies like panasonic did all the innovation, they stole the video market from canon.
the people that throw $$$ at this canon 8k will be left twisting in the wind two years from now, just like the people who bought into canon dslr video.
canon is playing catch-up in the 8k game, and since they can't compete with sony sensors and technology, they are desperately trying to find an 8k niche in the prosumer realm.
canon 8k will be a repeat of how they were an early adapter of dslr video, then failed miserably at it from then on, due to their usual cripple hammer... milc companies like panasonic did all the innovation, they stole the video market from canon.
the people that throw $$$ at this canon 8k will be left twisting in the wind two years from now, just like the people who bought into canon dslr video. ...Show more →
Apples to orange, you can't really compare super expensive Sony broadcasting camera to 8k R5 mainstream under $4k camera.
But you are also right, Canon was the first to bring dslr video and failed to follow up. I honestly don't think they let it go this time around since they have all tech available now.
Sony doesn't necessarily have to follow up,all is needed is improved IBIS, 4k60p or 4k120p with no record limits and overheating. 8k can be left for giant RED cameras.
canon is playing catch-up in the 8k game, and since they can't compete with sony sensors and technology, they are desperately trying to find an 8k niche in the prosumer realm.
canon 8k will be a repeat of how they were an early adapter of dslr video, then failed miserably at it from then on, due to their usual cripple hammer... milc companies like panasonic did all the innovation, they stole the video market from canon.
the people that throw $$$ at this canon 8k will be left twisting in the wind two years from now, just like the people who bought into canon dslr video. ...Show more →
Let Canon get some praise!
I mean, before Sony came along with their mirrorless cameras in 2013, Canon was known for their innovation -- but for a while became a bit complacent.
The feature-rich Canon R5 suggests that Canon invested heavily in R&D for mirrorless while Sony took almost five years to release the new A7S III.
It's not coincidence two new Sony bodies (A7S III and another 'affordable' full frame body) are going to be released within weeks from the Canon R5 and R6 announcement.
Sony realized that to get the most out of their cameras, they would have the segment the market with distinctive cameras for sports, landscapes and video. That's the reason Sony shooters own so many cameras!
Canon went a different route and made a camera that works well for all applications. It looks like it was a smart decision because this put them back in the game!
