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Archive 2020 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?

  
 
Jesse Evans
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p.3 #1 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Alright, here is my speculation:

Dynamic range will be worse 0.5 stops worse than the EOS R at full resolution and the same when normalized for resolution.

The EOS R5 will offer servo af in all burst modes.

20fps silent shutter will be at full resolution. It will allow for <1s of 20fps in raw due to the buffer only being big enough to handle the 1.8GB/s of generated raw data for that long and will drop down to about 2-3fps while the buffer is cleared.

However, the camera will shoot 10 bit HEIF and you can get about 5-6 seconds of shooting with that instead of raw.

Sensor readout will be too slow for action, but fast enough to use silent shutter most of the time (1/40s), making it not a true competitor to the Sony A9 but still a super step up from before. Also 1/40s is still going to make video rolling shutter less of an issue.

8k will be with no horizontal crop, but will have no autofocus capabilities, 8 bit only.

There will be 1 UHS-II card slot and 1 CFExpress card slot.

It’s going to have a new battery, and it’s going to be expensive ($120+), and it’s going to be incompatible with all of my EOS R 5D IV batteries.

The wifi transfer rate will be fast enough for raw transfer over wifi to be useful.

The camera will cost $4500.

Also there’s a 90% chance I’m going to buy this camera unless it is truly a potato.

I think the tracking autofocus will still be sub par for wildlife compared to the A7r IV.

What would really tickle me is if Canon announced they are working on animal eye af 😋 That seems unlikely though. I would really settle for canine eye af tho.



Feb 16, 2020 at 02:22 PM
artsupreme
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p.3 #2 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Tony5787 wrote:
Obviously the R5 is going to come with some caveats based on the specs we know. I’m inclined to think that it won’t have tracking at 12fps mechanical and 20fps electronic but the Mark III has tracking at 20fps mechanical and electronic so it’s not outside the realm of possibility. Even if it does lack tracking at those speeds it’ll probably have tracking at 8-10fps mechanical and 14-16fps electronic. It’s unlikely but I could also see this camera being completely no-compromises for one reason — taking market share from Sony. If Canon really is serious about taking over the FF
...Show more

If there's any time for Canon to release another home run it's definitely now, so let's hope they do. If this camera actually performs 12fps in AI servo @ 40MP+ and has IQ equivalent to a 5DIV then this would be a sports camera and wedding camera all in one package and it would be a huge hit. Maybe the 12fps in AI servo will be a cropped version? Even if priced close to $4500 I think it would still sell well and I would actually buy one but only if I could use it for sports along side my 1DXII.

But I'm guessing it will be more of the same from Canon...just a 5DIV with more cropping power which still might be enough for some people to throw a lot of money at it. But for me, if it's a 5DIV with 40MP and similar fps/IQ then I don't see any reason to throw money at it.



Feb 16, 2020 at 02:44 PM
evertdoorn
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p.3 #3 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Why would dynamic range be less?
And the R has a buffer of 118 shots in c-raw (according to imaging resource); I bet this camera can deliver performance on par or better, even with the higher resolution.

The press release puts a lot of emphasis on sports and wildlife photogs, much more than other stuff such as wedding so the speed element I believe will play a larger role than with the 5d4



Feb 16, 2020 at 02:45 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.3 #4 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


So, first, let's just start with stating the obvious, I am purely speculating.

Regarding dynamic range, I said the dynamic range would be 0.5 stops worse at full resolution, which means I'm assuming Canon is not getting better per pixel dynamic range while making the photosite smaller.

I didn't say C-RAW, I said RAW. And just so we are starting off on the correct foot, the buffer capacity is dependent on the selected shooting speed.

At the EOS R's maximum shooting rate of 8fps, the buffer capacity is stated as 78 shots. For RAW files, the buffer depth is 47.

78 shots will take 9.75 seconds to capture.

A C-RAW file in the EOS R is 17.3MB. 78 shots means that before hitting buffer limits the camera should be capable of generating 78*17.3MB = 1349.4MB of C-RAW data.

47 shots will take 5.875 seconds to capture, and will generate 47*31.3MB=1,471MB of RAW data before slowing down.

So, what does that tell us about RAW and C-RAW with regard to buffer? Well, we can't know the exact story, but the main takeaway is that C-RAW's buffer is limited by the processors ability to turn raw files in to c-raw compressed files, and the RAW buffer is limited by the ability to take RAW data and write it to disk.

Assuming no other losses in the system, over the course of the 5.875 seconds to fill the RAW buffer, a 200MB/s write speed UHS-II card should be able to write 1,175MB/s. Meaning that were the camera capable of writing to the UHS-II card at its full potential during capture, the actual buffered amount of data at the end of the burst is only 296MB.

For the C-RAW case we have a full 9.75 seconds, which if the camera were capable of writing at full speed during capture would mean we were writing 1,950MB. This would mean that the camera could have an unlimited buffer when shooting C-RAW.

So, what we can relatively safely assume is that the camera has some amount of RAM that is capable of holding RAW data, that is either written to disk, or turned in to C-RAW in memory before being written to disk.

I'm guessing based on these numbers that the amount of buffer RAM is around 1GB, since presumably SOME images are written fully to disk throughout the course of the buffer run before we have to slow down shooting.

With 1GB of buffer, and assuming the EOS R5 generates 45MB RAW files, the RAW buffer capacity for files would be about 23 files. Assuming that 20fps is saturating the bandwidth of the system, there wouldn't be any way to write any meaningful number of files to disk, and so the buffer would be purely limited by RAM.

So, after writing all of that down, I'm going to revise my speculation. The EOS R5 will probably have at least 2GB of dedicated buffering RAM, probably making it possible to capture around 40 raw files in silent shooting at 20fps.



Feb 16, 2020 at 03:22 PM
arbitrage
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p.3 #5 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Jesse Evans wrote:
Alright, here is my speculation:

My thoughts on your thoughts are as follows...
Jesse Evans wrote:
Dynamic range will be worse 0.5 stops worse than the EOS R at full resolution and the same when normalized for resolution.

Not sure about this one...so I'll skip it
Jesse Evans wrote:
The EOS R5 will offer servo af in all burst modes.

I think this is possible if we look towards what the 1DXIII can do and not back to what the EOS R could do
Jesse Evans wrote:
20fps silent shutter will be at full resolution. It will allow for <1s of 20fps in raw due to the buffer only being big enough to handle the 1.8GB/s of generated raw data for that long and will drop down to about 2-3fps while the buffer is cleared.

I think it will be able to go longer than that with a CFE only and not shooting to the SD.
Jesse Evans wrote:
However, the camera will shoot 10 bit HEIF and you can get about 5-6 seconds of shooting with that instead of raw.

With the 1DXIII that has virtually unlimited buffer the only thing that severely drops its shots to buffer full is shooting HEIF, it is very taxing on the system so there is no way HEIF will be better bursts than RAW
Jesse Evans wrote:
Sensor readout will be too slow for action, but fast enough to use silent shutter most of the time (1/40s), making it not a true competitor to the Sony A9 but still a super step up from before. Also 1/40s is still going to make video rolling shutter less of an issue.

Probably something like that but even with read speeds slower than that I was able to shoot BIF without distortion on the Z7 and Z50 so depending on the bird you can get away with it.
Jesse Evans wrote:
8k will be with no horizontal crop, but will have no autofocus capabilities, 8 bit only.

Pretty much a given no DPAF seeing what the 1DXIII does so yes I agree
Jesse Evans wrote:
There will be 1 UHS-II card slot and 1 CFExpress card slot.

Yes, that is the most likely scenario.
Jesse Evans wrote:
It’s going to have a new battery, and it’s going to be expensive ($120+), and it’s going to be incompatible with all of my EOS R 5D IV batteries.

I think it will still take a variant of EOS R battery and be backwards compatible with all LP-E6
Jesse Evans wrote:
The camera will cost $4500.

4-4.5 I'd say
Jesse Evans wrote:
Also there’s a 90% chance I’m going to buy this camera unless it is truly a potato.

If there aren't a lot of caveats with the FPS and AF then I will likely buy back into this camera but won't totally ditch any other system for it
Jesse Evans wrote:
I think the tracking autofocus will still be sub par for wildlife compared to the A7r IV.

I think it can best R4...R4 didn't impress me much but it may be having issue with 200-600 which is mostly all I used on it.
Jesse Evans wrote:
What would really tickle me is if Canon announced they are working on animal eye af 😋 That seems unlikely though. I would really settle for canine eye af tho.

I'm sure they can do that...not sure when they will though




Feb 16, 2020 at 04:06 PM
evertdoorn
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p.3 #6 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Mmm.. well lots of stuff to think about.

Interesting read and some real world test results reg buffer and type of raw: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-eos-r/canon-eos-rA6.HTM

We’ll have to see how it plays out for the R5. I’m quite enthusiastic about c-raw, since file size is considerably smaller without real world compromises in quality, and it apparently gives a deeper buffer experience.

The DR of the a7r4 is about the same as the 3 while having more mpix right? Isn’t it possible canon could achieve the same with a new sensor? Not very tech savvy so not sure how this works.



Feb 16, 2020 at 04:08 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.3 #7 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Yeah the A7r IV and III have the same DR when normalized for resolution. At 100% (full resolution), the IV has more noise than the III.

Who knows what Canon means by new sensor. It could be amazing. We will see!



Feb 16, 2020 at 04:30 PM
kezeka
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p.3 #8 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


JohnSil wrote:
Given Canon's history
Were you alive when the T-90 came out? The T-90 even knocked the socks off of people that only knew what an Instamatic was!
What about EOS?
What about the 50 f1.0 with AF?
What about the 200 f1.8 with AF
What about IS in a 500 f4?
What about the 5D mkl and mkll?
What about the 200-400 with a built-in extender?
Canon has a long history of Home Runs!!!
John


From where I stand the new RF 50 and 85 are even loved by Lloyd Chamber, of which the RF 50 he notes as "a lens you buy and look for an accessory to shoot it on". The new 70-200 RF is in my bag of lenses to pick up for hiking and travel so I can finally carry a 70-200 in a reasonably sized bag while climbing mountains.

Not sure where all this vitriol against Canon has come from. I am still making good images with a 5D3 which seems to sometimes have a better sensor than my leica Q. For all the nasty crap some of you spout out about how terrible canon has become, a lot of you have your fantastic EF lenses slapped onto Sony cameras. If I am being honest, I am almost excited about the RF lenses not being adaptable to Sony just so that crowd can start complaining about how Sony lets them down for some reason in a few years because their cameras cant read their minds.

More on topic, I'm going to pick up the new R5 regardless just so I can stay within the canon ecosystem, keep a sensor that reproduces color similarly to my previous canons and my leica, keep my CPS rapid repairs, and thats before you even get to finally having a canon camera with IBIS. It is more than enough camera based on those specifications alone.




Feb 16, 2020 at 05:43 PM
mb126
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p.3 #9 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Btw the dynamic range for the 1DX3 just posted to Bill Claff's site. It shows ~1 stop improvement over the 1DX2 at base ISO.

This bodes very, very well for the R5 IMO.



Feb 16, 2020 at 08:19 PM
Mike_5D
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p.3 #10 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


mb126 wrote:
Btw the dynamic range for the 1DX3 just posted to Bill Claff's site. It shows ~1 stop improvement over the 1DX2 at base ISO.

This bodes very, very well for the R5 IMO.


Wow that's a big jump for one generation.



Feb 16, 2020 at 08:20 PM
RoamingScott
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p.3 #11 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


mb126 wrote:
Btw the dynamic range for the 1DX3 just posted to Bill Claff's site. It shows ~1 stop improvement over the 1DX2 at base ISO.

This bodes very, very well for the R5 IMO.


How does the 1DX3 compared to the A9's DR by his measurement, or does he even compare those?



Feb 16, 2020 at 08:38 PM
ggreene
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p.3 #12 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Hype is the key word. This body has expectations high and that can be a double edged sword. I hope Canon delivers because if they don't and it's got cripple hammer marks all over it. It won't be a pretty roll out.

Still waiting for a 1DR as the EOS R (and this new body) are too similar to the tiny Sony ones for my taste.



Feb 16, 2020 at 08:55 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #13 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


mb126 wrote:
Btw the dynamic range for the 1DX3 just posted to Bill Claff's site. It shows ~1 stop improvement over the 1DX2 at base ISO.

This bodes very, very well for the R5 IMO.

RoamingScott wrote:
How does the 1DX3 compared to the A9's DR by his measurement, or does he even compare those?


The a9 is the same as the 1DXII at base ISO (10.5 stops PDR). The a9II at 10.9 is between the 1DXII and 1DXIII at 11.25 at base ISO. The a9s seem to have a dual-gain system. At around ISO 800 they're slightly better than the 1DXIII, but it would be splitting hairs in real-life.



Feb 16, 2020 at 09:00 PM
arbitrage
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p.3 #14 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


That is a very impressive improvement for the 1DXIII at low ISO (not that I'd care as I've said for years with all these stupid DR debates...when do I ever shoot below ISO 400 or so...hint...NEVER...). The 1DXII already had decent low ISO DR. This number for the 1DXIII puts it near the very best, equaling the D850 (except for its 80 and 64 settings) and getting close to the A7RIII/IV. Not bad Canon, not bad.

But of course the Sony and Nikon (Sony) sensors have the advantage as they go past their dual gain mark. Past the dual gain is where I shoot so I usually like to look in that range. But even with the dual gain of the A9, the 1DXIII is getting close

Now where the real embarrassment comes is comparing to the D5 (and likely D6, TBD) where low ISO DR was and is like 2012 Canon territory. But of course the D5 still has the best high-ISO DR of any camera so it is still the king in my book.



Feb 16, 2020 at 09:41 PM
kezeka
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p.3 #15 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


mb126 wrote:
Btw the dynamic range for the 1DX3 just posted to Bill Claff's site. It shows ~1 stop improvement over the 1DX2 at base ISO.

This bodes very, very well for the R5 IMO.


This looks like quite a fantastic improvement over my 5d3.



Feb 16, 2020 at 11:53 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.3 #16 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


It is only a marginal improvement when compared to the 5d4.


Feb 17, 2020 at 12:04 AM
ShootPDX
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p.3 #17 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


I think this camera will be below $3,000. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Carry on!



Feb 17, 2020 at 01:11 AM
Chetan Kulkarn
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p.3 #18 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


I think this camera will be a home run. It won't stand up to all expectations based on the hype generated so far but I see the following positives:
1. IBIS - This was a big missing piece in the R/RP and brings Canon on par with Sony/Nikon
2. New Sensor - If Canon is designing a new sensor they would have focused on better DR since it is one of their Achilles' heel
3. Better Ergonomics - The chinks in the ergonomics from the R seem to have been addressed. We have most of the stuff which made the Canon DSLRs so usable
4. Resolution - At the rumored 40 MP we should have a resolution which is sufficient for everyone

If we look at all these things, and more, in the released details Canon seems to have really made an attempt to fix their R line. And it is a make or break product for them IMO. If they really want to improve their market share they cannot afford to screw up on this one.



Feb 17, 2020 at 01:14 AM
Mike_5D
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p.3 #19 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


ShootPDX wrote:
I think this camera will be below $3,000. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Carry on!


I suspect it'll launch at $3500 for the body only like the last two 5D's. Hopefully everybody b*tches and moans about every little shortcoming and it hits $2500 on grey market Black Friday 2020 deals.



Feb 17, 2020 at 01:15 AM
IndyFab
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p.3 #20 · EOS-R5....will it live up to the hype?


Tony5787 wrote:
Obviously the R5 is going to come with some caveats based on the specs we know. I’m inclined to think that it won’t have tracking at 12fps mechanical and 20fps electronic but the Mark III has tracking at 20fps mechanical and electronic so it’s not outside the realm of possibility. Even if it does lack tracking at those speeds it’ll probably have tracking at 8-10fps mechanical and 14-16fps electronic. It’s unlikely but I could also see this camera being completely no-compromises for one reason — taking market share from Sony. If Canon really is serious about taking over the FF
...Show more

I tend to agree with your statement... " If Canon really is serious about taking over the FF mirrorless market then this would be the camera to get them headed in that direction."



Feb 17, 2020 at 02:17 AM
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