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Archive 2020 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tam...

vdo1
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

chez wrote:
Depends what one shoots. I used my Canon 24-105 for handheld landscapes when shooting my 5d2 and typically was stopped down to at least f5.6 and more realistically f8.

If that's the intended use then the 24-105 wins by virtue of lower weight and OSS, and not necessarily due to "extra reach".

Jan 18, 2020 at 06:54 PM

RoamingScott
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

sandycrane wrote:
So, you trust a stranger's one off, obviously flawed test over your own long term experience?

This sums up a great deal of FM

Also reporting in for thread # 5972 where people squabble over the 24-105.

Jan 18, 2020 at 06:55 PM

chez
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

vdo1 wrote:
If that's the intended use then the 24-105 wins by virtue of lower weight and OSS, and not necessarily due to "extra reach".

But that extra reach comes in handy many times...especially when I'm walking and taking landscapes where I might not necessarily want to or have the time to climb down closer and compose the shot.

Jan 18, 2020 at 07:23 PM

KarmaKramer
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

Who notices “decentering” in the real world. Other than the photographer that is.

Jan 18, 2020 at 08:22 PM

inksandpaper
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

Thank you very much for the extensive comparisons and providing the full-resolution, well-processed jpegs. The Sigma is quite impressive for the most part and so is the Nikon. Absolutely delighted that you've included the Nikon in your tests, it provides valuable additional data in addition to Camera Labs's tests!

Jan 18, 2020 at 11:15 PM

snapsy
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

FYI: Just posted the reshoot images in the OP.

Jan 22, 2020 at 09:22 AM

Mister-Mr
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

RoamingScott wrote:
This sums up a great deal of FM

....

Comparisons like this are both informative AND entertaining ..

Mostly the latter for me..

If I had to choose one lens from this series of tests, I'd choose the Nikon ..

Jan 22, 2020 at 09:59 AM

RoamingScott
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

Mister-Mr wrote:
Comparisons like this are both informative AND entertaining ..

Mostly the latter for me..

If I had to choose one lens from this series of tests, I'd choose the Nikon ..

I'd guess that's because the Nikon shots look the most "processed" of any of them in this test, even though they have some of the worst vignetting.

The Sigma seems like a very viable option against the GM frankly based on this. I don't see it as a replacement for the 24-105 since they have far different utility with the differences in lengths and aperture.

Jan 22, 2020 at 10:06 AM

snapsy
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

RoamingScott wrote:
I'd guess that's because the Nikon shots look the most "processed" of any of them in this test, even though they have some of the worst vignetting.

The Sigma seems like a very viable option against the GM frankly based on this. I don't see it as a replacement for the 24-105 since they have far different utility with the differences in lengths and aperture.

The Nikon 24-70Z results aren't directly comparable to the others since it's from a different resolution sensor (45MP Z7 vs 60MP A7rIV), thus is magnified less. I included it anyway because I was interested in its relative full-field performance.

Jan 22, 2020 at 10:10 AM

RoamingScott
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

It's still definitely interesting to see (and a good reminder why I'm more of a fan of Sony output than Nikon output).

snapsy wrote:
The Nikon 24-70Z results aren't directly comparable to the others since it's from a different resolution sensor (45MP Z7 vs 60MP A7rIV), thus is magnified less. I included it anyway because I was interested in its relative full-field performance.

Jan 22, 2020 at 10:12 AM

Matti6950
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

At least the tilt on the Sigma is fixed (blur going away) by stopping down, some tilts are so bad, F8 still shows big blur.

I have a GMaster lens. My findings are (infinity): Wide open: very bad, except 33-46mm. Might be better at close focus distance.

24mm: hit and miss, sometimes 'ok sharp' (enough to keep the image, even compared to prime), other times, just soft in big parts of image. I thought it was stuff like motion blur, silent shooting, IBIS, but even with all those out of equation i still have this issue.

30-45mm: incredible sharp, almost prime like, pin sharp horizon detail.

50-60mm: steady drop in performance.

70mm, soft even stopped down. A bummer as i'm looking for 100-400mm gm, that means, both 70mm and 100mm must be fully usefull to keep the gap minimal.

My conclusions of Sigma:

There is sample variation (but not convinced more then Sony GM).

Generally sharper wide open.

24mm: surprisingly looks sharper then GM even though it's weak spot.

35mm, a wash with GM.

50mm even with tilt, i'd give the win to Sigma, especially stopped down. Cameralabs doesn't have this tilt, so good samples exist.

70mm: surprisingly sharp, almost as sharp as my nikon 70-200mm F4. This performance truly tempts me to go Sigma.

If you read cameralabs review, the Sigma is basically highly recommended, he doenst however for one very reason: weaker close focus distance sharpness. Is any of that true? The nikon 24-70mm F2.8VR has similar performance pattern. Minimum focus distance (especially 24mm) is very close though in Sigma, maybe the expectations are to high there.

To buy another Gmaster (there is used copy of 1400 euro on sale) or just buy Sigma new for 1200 euro and focus on the return possibility if it performs badly.

Jan 22, 2020 at 10:41 AM

pasblues
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

samosh wrote:
I already had 24-70 GM when I purchase 24-105 G. I sent 24-105 back because in my opinion it didn't measure up to 24-70 GM. After reading how great this lens is I questioned if I just didn't get a good copy. Later I decided that I have the range covered by 70-200 so I don't need to experiment with a different copy 24-105.

I remember when the 24-105 first came out and everybody discussing it on FM was, like, the 24-70GM doesn't measure up to the 24-105. I remember because I had the 24-70GM at the time and was one of the few in the minority who felt the GM was a superior - or at least an EXCELLENT - lens.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1608286/0

Jan 22, 2020 at 01:16 PM

pasblues
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

I will say, however, that - across the three systems I now have, I'm pretty stunned at the optical quality of lenses these days. You've really got to get in there and nit-pick the corners and this and that and the other.

I mean, from what I'm seeing, there are some $125 lenses out there in lens land that can make amazing images.

I bring this up because, in decades past - this was NOT the case. It used to be easy to tell a cheap lens from an expensive one.

It's gotten a LOT harder these days to make distinctions without doing a lot of testing and pixel peeping.

Jan 22, 2020 at 01:35 PM

theacguy71
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

DSC02629 by Vaughn Adams, on Flickr

Second pic is 70mm , slightly cropped in post form 60mp

DSC02710 by Vaughn Adams, on Flickr

Jan 22, 2020 at 01:45 PM

snapsy
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

FYI, I sent my Sigma in yesterday to Sigma USA address the tilt issue at 50mm (and 70mm to a lesser extent). When I get it back I'll do a comparison on the same scene and post my results to see if they were able to correct the tilt successfully.

Jan 25, 2020 at 09:18 AM

Viramati
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

Matti6950 wrote:
At least the tilt on the Sigma is fixed (blur going away) by stopping down, some tilts are so bad, F8 still shows big blur.

I have a GMaster lens. My findings are (infinity): Wide open: very bad, except 33-46mm. Might be better at close focus distance.

24mm: hit and miss, sometimes 'ok sharp' (enough to keep the image, even compared to prime), other times, just soft in big parts of image. I thought it was stuff like motion blur, silent shooting, IBIS, but even with all those out of equation i still have this issue.

30-45mm: incredible sharp, almost prime like, pin...Show more →

Wow and if I understand you rightly you must have really poor copy of the 24-70GM. Mine is excellent at all focal lengths apart from around 63-70mm range where it is a little soft towards the edges even stopped down (this is with the A7rIII). At the wide end it really is quite extrodinary how sharp it is even wide open and I love the way it renders at the long end. I really only use mine now for event work and on the A9 so even it's slight flaws are not really noticeable

Jan 25, 2020 at 10:54 AM

Matti6950
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

Viramati wrote:
Wow and if I understand you rightly you must have really poor copy of the 24-70GM. Mine is excellent at all focal lengths apart from around 63-70mm range where it is a little soft towards the edges even stopped down (this is with the A7rIII). At the wide end it really is quite extrodinary how sharp it is even wide open and I love the way it renders at the long end. I really only use mine now for event work and on the A9 so even it's slight flaws are not really noticeable

Well upon further review (but still need much more testing to be conclusive)

24-29mm might be user error but not sure. I think it's challenging to get 24mm 'hyperfocal' on this zoom for some reason, but if you get it: and no shake or other disrupting factor: very sharp image possible.

30-46mm very sharp (almost prime like)

50mm might also be damn sharp, haven't shot so much at it tbh.

70mm clearly softer BUT, at close focus distance (wich is where i use it most) it's actually very sharp. Not prime sharp but almost nobody will see difference. I have some cyclocross (kind of cycling in mud) pictures wich are amazing at 70mm F4 (usually 5-10 meter to target). the soft landscape images may be combination of user error and the slightly weaker side of the 24-70mm gm focal range.

It's actually Snapsy's comparison that made me recheck my best 24-70mm images. (weather doesn't allow shooting sadly, for sharp shot tests), i'll try the moment it clears up.

I could try another GM that is going for a record low 1400 euro (no warranty left) (as was mine that i bought for 100 euro more), but i'm not sure. Following rogers rule i might not have bad copy at all, don't see any severe tilt, just sometimes softness.

Another thing i have noticed is that 'just out of focus' area's have this specific look to them (like small blurry dot pattern, cant explain it better), but often it's mistaken for a sharp' but shaky' shot. In some shots i notice this pattern, and that the focus is not hyperfocal at all.

Plus the AF hitrate with the cyclocross (for my first time ever shoot with Sony system) was very good, that must be partially cause of the fast AF on GM. The weight doesn't botter me. I love to balance the full combo on my left hand. I like that the GMaster has to 'becomes thicker' parts near barrely for perfect ergonomics while doing this.

Still i think the Sigma is an amazing lens, someday i might get it, use it just for funs and curiosity, (same for 24-105mm F4).

Jan 25, 2020 at 07:11 PM

billsnature
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

snapsy wrote:
FYI: Just posted the reshoot images in the OP.

Thanks for doing the reshoot.

The Sigma does look very good!

The 24-105 (and Tamron) still looks overexposed compared to others but not as bad as first set. Interesting it looks better exposed in the 70mm focus assessment, and in that it looks a lot better for IQ. I would love to see histograms normalized to better compare Tamron and 24-105 to the Sigma and GM.

Bill

Jan 27, 2020 at 07:42 PM

snapsy
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

snapsy wrote:
FYI, I sent my Sigma in yesterday to Sigma USA address the tilt issue at 50mm (and 70mm to a lesser extent). When I get it back I'll do a comparison on the same scene and post my results to see if they were able to correct the tilt successfully.

The Sigma repair process is not going well. They received my lens this Monday. Last night I got an email notification from UPS saying there's a package on the way from Sigma. Receiving no communication from Sigma, I called them this morning to see what problem was found and corrected. I was told a technician tested the lens and found no issue. I asked if they had reviewed the photo (link) I referenced to the repair order. After a few minutes I was transferred to the technician who looked at the lens and was told it was tested at 4 distances with no issues found. I asked if they had looked at my sample photo and was told yes - however they said the blurriness on the left edge may be "tree blur". I said the image had both buildings and vegetation at the questionable edge, and that it was shot at 1/4000. I then asked if they could share the test photos they shot so that I could compare to my own - was first told they don't keep them, and then that it wasn't their policy to share. I then asked what photo would they would need from me to demonstrate the issue to their satisfaction. Didn't really get a discernible answer but was told I could email in more test photos for review, which I did this morning, including full-sized images and animations showing the tilt issue, such as this animation of the right-edge of the frame:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VRFHTFS/0/f00416af/O/i-VRFHTFS.gif

I'll keep the thread updated with my progress.

Jan 29, 2020 at 01:23 PM

Douglas L
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · 2020 Midrange Shootout! 24-70 GM vs Sigma 24-70 DN vs Sony 24-105 vs Tamron 28-75 vs Nikon 24-70 Z

That's discouraging news Adam. A noob question, how do you take picture with the camera upside down but show the right side up orientation of the picture? Do you just rotate the picture in post? Thanks,

Jan 29, 2020 at 01:38 PM

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