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Archive 2019 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode

  
 
Cliff L.
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p.5 #1 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
Hmm, let me think about that for a moment. What about native, portable, weather sealed, with AF, f2 Leica APO primes, with world class performance ? ))


Hmm... I never considered using f2 Leica APO primes on a Fuji GFX... but that (or a maybe a Nikon Z7 if it didn't have the PDAF banding) is the only current setup that would give you all of those parameters.

I understand getting Leica lenses repaired or serviced is quite a challenge, though... almost as bad as the Panasonic lenses.



Jul 14, 2019 at 02:14 PM
Cliff L.
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p.5 #2 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
I've been and still am (present tense) a subscriber for almost 10 years. A few months from now, a 70MP Sony / Canon / Nikon body with multishot capabilites (one can only wish) could make those comments obsolete, don't you think ?


If you've been reading his reviews for that long, then you know that he often changes his mind about the merits of a product once he discovers some little glitch, or gets frustrated when he can't figure out how something works because he didn't read the manual...

I guess others are getting tired of Lloyd's hysterics as well... he send me an email this morning begging me to pre-order an A7R IV through his affiliate link because B&H won't give him a review copy otherwise. How pathetic.



Jul 18, 2019 at 08:32 AM
vdo1
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p.5 #3 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


molson wrote:
If you've been reading his reviews for that long, then you know that he often changes his mind about the merits of a product once he discovers some little glitch, or gets frustrated when he can't figure out how something works because he didn't read the manual...


Yeah I remember some expletives and declaring Sony's Eye-AF broken... after Firmware 3.0... just because he failed to read and understand the amended manual.... There's a thread somewhere here about it lol...




Jul 18, 2019 at 08:42 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #4 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


molson wrote:
If you've been reading his reviews for that long, then you know that he often changes his mind about the merits of a product once he discovers some little glitch, or gets frustrated when he can't figure out how something works because he didn't read the manual...

I guess others are getting tired of Lloyd's hysterics as well... he send me an email this morning begging me to pre-order an A7R IV through his affiliate link because B&H won't give him a review copy otherwise. How pathetic.


He sent everyone the same email. It's not pathetic. It's being honest. Ok, can we, please, move away from diglloyd bashing ?
This thread is not about diglloyd, is about multishot images vs single shot. The absolute superiority of those was proved not only by diglloyd (with loads of images and solid testing) but by several other reputable sources, mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Yes, there is no contest in IQ between a 40-50 MP Bayer single shot and a 200 MP true-color multishot. Which we all knew for 10 years now, ever since Sinar and Hasselblad multishot solutions were showing the exact same results. That's why they were used in critical art reproduction and product shots, in studios across the world.
Sony's latest release with the 240 MP pixel shift shows, again, the same thing.
Sorry, but this thread shows that "hysterics" tends to apply a lot more to the Lloyd bashers, themselves with a very vivid and off-topic rethoric, than the character himself.

And, off-topic, about changing one's mind about gear and gear merits ... I wonder how many photographers on this forum have waited feverishly for the pre-order of the next "game-changing" piece of gear, for months, praised it's merits all over the internet once it arrived, made the mandatory brickwall / pussycat shots to show it, and then sold it a few month later, because all of a sudden, with the advent of a new toy, it had become this absolute piece of obsolete junk, for whatever (very legitimate, obviously) reason. Let the non-gear-whores throw the first stone ... I cannot ) Sorry, this was my own off-topic rant. Back to more meaningful things than internet gear wars.

Looking forward to my own pre-order of the Sony multishot body, hoping that it's real life applicability will be comparable to the Panasonic S1r. There are some signs that already suggest that Sony's implementation will have more limitations (8 shots vs 16, in camera raw with independent raw convertors vs proprietary quirky Sony desktop app only conversion, Mode 2 vs ... ) but until we have a real camera to speak of, there's no point in speculating too much.





Edited on Jul 18, 2019 at 09:14 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2019 at 08:58 AM
timballic
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p.5 #5 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
Ok, can we, please, move away from diglloyd bashing ?
This thread is not about diglloyd, is about multishot images vs single shot. The absolute superiority of those was proved not only by diglloyd (with loads of images and solid testing) but by several other reputable sources, mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Yes, there is no contest in IQ between a 40-50 MP Bayer single shot and a 200 MP true-color multishot. Which we all knew for 10 years now, ever since Sinar and Hasselblad multishot solutions were showing the exact same results. That's why they were used in critical
...Show more




Jul 18, 2019 at 09:10 AM
derKoekje
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p.5 #6 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
He sent everyone the same email. It's not pathetic. It's being honest. Ok, can we, please, move away from diglloyd bashing ?
This thread is not about diglloyd, is about multishot images vs single shot.
Sorry, but this thread shows that "hysterics" tends to apply a lot more to the Lloyd bashers, themselves with a very vivid and off-topic rethoric, than the character himself.




This love/hate division is a division that he set up for himself though. In order to stand out from the pack as a reviewer you can choose to establish have a strong, well defined character that makes bold, brash statements rather than careful, well-weighted ones. It can garners a lot of fans but at the same time cast doubt on any hyperbolic claim you make. It's a double-edged sword. I'm not very familiar with him but from what I can tell he chose to lean into these statements, so he as well as everyone else shouldn't be surprised that this is a logical consequence. Just look at Ken Rockwell, the exact same thing applies.

Anyway, the new pixel shift feature on the A7R IV makes this thread moot, at least until more in depth testing with production units is done. So naturally the thread devolved into just talking about the man's character.


Edited on Jul 18, 2019 at 09:35 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:18 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #7 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


derKoekje wrote:
This love/hate division is a division that he set up for himself though. In order to stand out from the pack as a reviewer you can choose to establish have a strong, well defined character that makes bold, brash statements rather than careful, well-weighted ones. It can garners a lot of fans but at the same time cast doubt on any hyperbolic claim you make. It's a double-edged sword. I'm not very familiar with him but from what I can tell he chose to lean into these statements, so he as well as everyone else shouldn't be surprised that this
...Show more

Sorry but Ken Rockwell is a clown with jpg reviews, and the difference is that Lloyd has not only words, but also images and a solid testing methodology to make his point.
Being engulfed in the rethoric is optional. Studying Diglloyd's carefully planned shots, made at multiple apertures and focusing distances, under a variety of lighting conditions, in real life scenarios, with all the details of the shot available (from stabilisation methods to raw conversion technique applied), should help easily separate the rethoric from the facts.
Again, he is only a technical review for me, and understanding his limitations helps. For subjective assessments, I would much rather take my information from dear-susan, for example, than diglloyd.



Edited on Jul 18, 2019 at 09:31 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:25 AM
bjornthun
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p.5 #8 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
He sent everyone the same email. It's not pathetic. It's being honest. Ok, can we, please, move away from diglloyd bashing ?
This thread is not about diglloyd, is about multishot images vs single shot. The absolute superiority of those was proved not only by diglloyd (with loads of images and solid testing) but by several other reputable sources, mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Yes, there is no contest in IQ between a 40-50 MP Bayer single shot and a 200 MP true-color multishot. Which we all knew for 10 years now, ever since Sinar and Hasselblad multishot solutions were showing
...Show more

I too received an e-mail from him, with no option to undubscribe from his mailing list. Essentially he wants the receivers of said e-mail to purchase through links provided by him. I have not subscribed to his sit3 for years. Since there was no unsubscribe option for his mailing list, I moved his mail to the spam folder. Mr. Chambers may well run his business as far as I’m concerned, but mailing list without an unsubscribe option is spam, imho.



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:28 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #9 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


bjornthun wrote:
I too received an e-mail from him, with no option to undubscribe from his mailing list. Essentially he wants the receivers of said e-mail to purchase through links provided by him. I have not subscribed to his sit3 for years. Since there was no unsubscribe option for his mailing list, I moved his mail to the spam folder. Mr. Chambers may well run his business as far as I’m concerned, but mailing list without an unsubscribe option is spam, imho.


I totally agree that the lack of "unsubscribe' button is not ok. I hadn't noticed that, until now. That is really not cool.
But, we are all, again, way off-topic



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:33 AM
derKoekje
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p.5 #10 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
Sorry but Ken Rockwell is a clown with jpg reviews, and the difference is that Lloyd has not only words, but also images and a solid testing methodology to make his point.
Being engulfed in the rethoric is optional. Studying Diglloyd's carefully planned shots, made at multiple apertures and focusing distances, under a variety of lighting conditions, in real life scenarios, with all the details of the shot available (from stabilisation methods to raw conversion technique applied), should help easily separate the rethoric from the facts.


I'm not saying his claims are necessarily false. Like I said, I don't know the man. Sure, being 'engulfed in rhetoric' is optional but at the same time his personality, claims and headlines provoke this type of behaviour and he knows it. No such thing as bad publicity, as they say.

Let's contrast this. Take Jim Kasson for example. His claims and opinions are far more nuanced. Discussion surrounding his results and findings have a higher chance of being broken down and discussed without any devolved talk surrounding his character. However his audience is more niche, and his reach not as broad.



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:34 AM
hiepphotog
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p.5 #11 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
He sent everyone the same email. It's not pathetic. It's being honest. Ok, can we, please, move away from diglloyd bashing ?
This thread is not about diglloyd, is about multishot images vs single shot. The absolute superiority of those was proved not only by diglloyd (with loads of images and solid testing) but by several other reputable sources, mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Yes, there is no contest in IQ between a 40-50 MP Bayer single shot and a 200 MP true-color multishot. Which we all knew for 10 years now, ever since Sinar and Hasselblad multishot solutions were showing
...Show more

Yup, we shall see how this new 16-pic Pixel shift will do. Mainly I'm hoping for actual improvement in details. The time difference to take 8 shot on the S1R (9fps) and 16 shot on the A7RIV (10fps) is not much I assume. I heard that the S1R can do Multi-Shot handheld while the Sony's implementation is best done on a tripod. It would be interesting to see if this will change. If the difference is small, I would prefer shooting handheld.



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:43 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #12 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


hiepphotog wrote:
Yup, we shall see how this new 16-pic Pixel shift will do. Mainly I'm hoping for actual improvement in details. The time difference to take 8 shot on the S1R (9fps) and 16 shot on the A7RIV (10fps) is not much I assume. I heard that the S1R can do Multi-Shot handheld while the Sony's implementation is best done on a tripod. It would be interesting to see if this will change. If the difference is small, I would prefer shooting handheld.


Let's face it, for most realistic applications like architecture and table top, you would anyway be shooting from a tripod most of / if not all the time.
For landscape, handheld shooting might happen more often than the other two. But the real limitation, there, are moving subjects (plants, water, clouds etc.) - so that is where I want to see the difference. Panasonic did better, on that regard, than any other multishot implementation until now. Far from perfect or flawless, only better. From the paper specs, Sony seems less adapted to compensating for the same moving subjects. But until we actually shoot the camera, we will not really know


Edited on Jul 18, 2019 at 10:02 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:52 AM
timballic
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p.5 #13 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


hiepphotog wrote:

Yup, we shall see how this new 16-pic Pixel shift will do. Mainly I'm hoping for actual improvement in details. The time difference to take 8 shot on the S1R (9fps) and 16 shot on the A7RIV (10fps) is not much I assume. I heard that the S1R can do Multi-Shot handheld while the Sony's implementation is best done on a tripod. It would be interesting to see if this will change. If the difference is small, I would prefer shooting handheld.


It surely rather depends on the shutter speed set. If you're shooting 1sec exposures the min time on the S1R must be 8 secs, if 1/250 sec then minimum would be 1/30th sec. (I may have got that wrong, but it's still going to be a very short time.)

I wonder if you really can hand hold any of these in multishot mode. I suppose if you're using a high shutter speed and the "burst speed" of the multi shot is high?



Jul 18, 2019 at 09:59 AM
hiepphotog
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p.5 #14 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


timballic wrote:
It surely rather depends on the shutter speed set. If you're shooting 1sec exposures the min time on the S1R must be 8 secs, if 1/250 sec then minimum would be 1/30th sec. (I may have got that wrong, but it's still going to be a very short time.)

I wonder if you really can hand hold any of these in multishot mode. I suppose if you're using a high shutter speed and the "burst speed" of the multi shot is high?


It's true that it will depend on the shutter speed but I tend to use these with higher shutter speed to avoid any possible interference in the scene (whether it's a slight breeze or something/someone just steps into the frame). One of the perks for the multi-shot is noise reduction so it does beg one to use higher shutter speed. Of course in a studio setting, I can see the benefit of 8 vs. 16. I just hope Sony's implementation is good this time.



Jul 18, 2019 at 10:17 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #15 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


A few more valid points from the same controversial (on this forum) reviewer:

1 Sony's files for pixelshift: 1 photo = 16 shots X cca 120 MB / shot = 1.9 GB. Or, alternatively, compressed raw would be 1 photo = 16 shots X 60 MB / shot = 960 MB. Wow! I could fill up my 256 GB card in a few hours of shooting. I would need new superfast hardrives, asap.
By comparison, Panasonic s1rs 8 file multishot = 1 x 324 MB raw file. That's 1/3 the size

2. The 8 shot vs 16 shot, even if superfast executed, still makes the 16 shot AT LEAST 2 times more vulnerable to subject movement (changes in light, wind etc.)

3 The inability to preview DOF and critical focus, on the final shot, for the Sony, in the field (because the multishot file needs a computer to be seen) will have critical implications, far from trivial, given the completely different CoC

I can only add that 4. focus stacking is out of the question as it only compounds the problem, exponentially. Tilt / swing becomes mandatory, not optional.

Hmm, while excited about the Sony, and determined to make it work, the PRACTICAL, real world implications of the multishot implementation are no longer theoretical, but utterly painful. Real world usage may be severely impaired in Sony's a7r4 implementation.
While I know that talking about a camera without using it makes a lot of points utterly mute, I believe these 4 problems will be perfectly valid, with the camera in hand.
What are your thoughts ?




Jul 19, 2019 at 05:22 PM
hiepphotog
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p.5 #16 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
A few more valid points from the same controversial (on this forum) reviewer:

1 Sony's files for pixelshift: 1 photo = 16 shots X cca 120 MB / shot = 1.9 GB. Or, alternatively, compressed raw would be 1 photo = 16 shots X 60 MB / shot = 960 MB. Wow! I could fill up my 256 GB card in a few hours of shooting. I would need new superfast hardrives, asap.
By comparison, Panasonic s1rs 8 file multishot = 1 x 324 MB raw file. That's 1/3 the size

2. The 8 shot vs 16 shot, even if superfast
...Show more

As reported so far, Panasonic magnification isn't so good at high mag. so it will be harder to determine the right DOF and critical focus. And I'm not sure why DOF and critical focus can't be achieved on the Sony. The Hi-res version will still have the same DOF and critical focus as the lower res. And at 61MP, the focus mag. should give better details and higher mag. than the lower MP camera, it's a win win I say.

The first two points are valid though storage shouldn't be a problem if your work really demands a constant use of Multi-shot (and if so maybe the Panasonic is better here). 8 v. 16 has to be field tested to see the significant difference. People did say that the Mark 4 does take these shots much faster now and I don't really know how fast the Panasonic is taking the 8 shots. And hopefully you will get more details with the Sony since it's a 240MP vs. 187MP.



Jul 19, 2019 at 05:41 PM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #17 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


hiepphotog wrote:
As reported so far, Panasonic magnification isn't so good at high mag. so it will be harder to determine the right DOF and critical focus. And I'm not sure why DOF and critical focus can't be achieved on the Sony. The Hi-res version will still have the same DOF and critical focus as the lower res. .


No, it will not. What is sharp at 61MP will not be equally sharp at 200MP. 100% magnification on the high rez image is a completely different beast than on the standard one.
While on Panasonic “magnification at high rez isn’t so good” on the Sony is non-existant. There is no high rez image, in camera. You are basically judging the sharpness of an equivalent 40MP photo based on a 10MP preview. It’s checking focus at precisely 25% magnification. Can you check proper DOF and critical focus at 25% ? Of course not.
Not to mention that, because you don’t have the assembled, final image, in the field you have no idea, on the Sony, if you really have the shot. Is checkerboarding present or other bad artifacts from subject movement or subtle lighting changes ? We don’t know, until we reach a desktop PC capable of assembling min 1GB of data into a final image.
I may prefer a 187 MP image that I can actually control, in the field, on location, to a 240 MP image that I cannot.


Edited on Jul 20, 2019 at 04:48 AM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2019 at 12:13 AM
AmbientMike
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p.5 #18 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Haven't read the article yet, but I was looking at the DPReview image comparison tool. The Panasonic looked really good compared to the Fuji 102mp. I think it might have called it pixel shift on the tool. I had that on.

Panasonicseems to do a really good job putting stuff together. At least, my old m4/3 seemed tight, overall, compared to other manufacturers cameras.

So I'm not really surprised if they did an excellent job. Most mirrorless doesn't get me too excited, but the Panasonic did catch my attention.

Calling canon, nikon, etc crap might be a bit overboard however

It might be interestingto try this:

https://petapixel.com/2015/02/21/a-practical-guide-to-creating-superresolution-photos-with-photoshop/



Jul 20, 2019 at 12:59 AM
nazdravanul
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p.5 #19 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


AmbientMike wrote:
It might be interestingto try this:

https://petapixel.com/2015/02/21/a-practical-guide-to-creating-superresolution-photos-with-photoshop/


I've been using this and multiple other techniques to create all sorts of stitched images.
The problem is it takes a lot of time and effort away from the things that matter the most in a photograph: composition and light. I'd rather allocate my creative resources there than on endless resolution technicalities (both during the shoot and in post).



Jul 20, 2019 at 01:57 AM
vdo1
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p.5 #20 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
No, it will not. What is sharp at 61MP will not be equally sharp at 200MP. 100% magnification on the high rez image is a completely different beast than on the standard one.
While on Panasonic “magnification at high rez isn’t so good” on the Sony is non-existant. There is no high rez image, in camera. You are basically judging the sharpness of an equivalent 40MP photo based on a 10MP preview. It’s checking focus at precisely 25% magnification. Can you check proper DOF and critical focus at 25% ? Of course not.
Not to mention that, because you don’t have
...Show more

I’ve told you. You won’t find rest until you get that Phase One. 150MP of real pixels. All in one single exposure. No subject motion issues. Can’t beat that .



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:54 AM
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