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Archive 2019 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode

  
 
nazdravanul
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p.3 #1 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


realVivek wrote:
So, based on the requirements and the reviews that convinced you, did you ditch Sony and buy the Panasonic?

Could you show some examples?



I haven't yet jumped on the s1R as I'm hoping Sony will introduce this, in the next generation high megapixel camera. But, if this doesn't happen in the next few months, I will most probably end up with an S1R.

Examples of my current work (photos of some of my actual prints are in the exhibtions links): https://www.stefan-iacob.co.uk



Jul 14, 2019 at 04:36 AM
timballic
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p.3 #2 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


As nazdravanul mentioned it, (p.2 #16), I've just read Keith Cooper's review (Northlight Images), of the S1R and its High-Res mode. It's well worth a link. It's a more "measured" review than Lloyd Chamber's. (eg. He did find some chequer-boarding in parts of some shots.)
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/using-the-panasonic-s1r/

His conclusion on the High-Res mode: "The high res mode is fascinating to use – it’s not quick and absolutely needs top quality camera support (tripod and head). It’s also brutal in showing up lens deficiencies. However, the extra detail, especially in colour makes it easier for correction software to do its work. Even the really good TS-E50 lens shows clear chromatic aberration, but one click and it was very effectively gone – even in my old copy of ACR.

Using high res mode outdoors needs some of the thought and planning you’d give to larger format photography. The finer resolution means that softening of the image from diffraction could be noticeable as wide as f/5.6, whilst the f/8 I was using for the Yorkshire Dales photo and the Castle would definitely soften things a bit. Add to this the reduced effective depth of field at higher resolution and the tradeoffs you make in your camera settings become just a bit more important."


His final remark is: "What did I miss the most when the camera went back? It has to be the output quality of those 187MP files – they just blew away single shot versions."

Edited on Jul 14, 2019 at 07:00 AM · View previous versions



Jul 14, 2019 at 06:40 AM
phototiimo
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p.3 #3 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode




lightskyland wrote:
There is no reason a better program for doing this cannot be developed to process Sony multishot.

Doing multishot processing in camera is a mistake IMO, anyway.


It would still be nice to have the option, for those of us who may want something quick and dirty to share with interested parties, or to have the option of higher quality embedded JPEGs, or to hopefully have greater compatibility with different RAW processing options.



Jul 14, 2019 at 06:55 AM
phototiimo
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p.3 #4 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode




lightskyland wrote:
There is something wrong with it.

RAW means what the camera captured.

The Panasonic file is processed in camera. That means if better multishot algorithms come along, people with Panasonic pseudo-RAW files can never take advantage of them.

The Sony implementation only needs a better computer program (probably third-party) and can implement a Panasonic-style movement removal algorithm.


I don't see anything wrong with presenting photographers with an option.



Jul 14, 2019 at 06:58 AM
phototiimo
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p.3 #5 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode




lightskyland wrote:
Stitching IQ is always going to destroy multishot IQ. Because you are not magnifying lens defects. If you really care about large gallery prints you need to be stitching or else using the biggest, highest MP sensors available.


You could always... combine both! 😎



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:00 AM
timballic
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p.3 #6 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


phototiimo wrote:
You could always... combine both! 😎


Northlight-Images does show an example of a stitched shot using the 187mp images from High-Res mode. (See link above in my last post pg3 #2)



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:04 AM
phototiimo
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p.3 #7 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode




nazdravanul wrote:
Yes, in order to maximise the benefits, only the best lenses will do.


I would assume almost any modern lenses would still see some benefits, though. I've seen pixel shift photos pull extra details from the corners of 28mm FE images shot at f2, so clearly there's still some justification for using the feature regardless of lenses used.



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:04 AM
timballic
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p.3 #8 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


phototiimo wrote:
I would assume almost any modern lenses would still see some benefits, though. I've seen pixel shift photos pull extra details from the corners of 28mm FE images shot at f2, so clearly there's still some justification for using the feature regardless of lenses used.


I wonder? Keith Cooper (Northlight-Images) says, "It’s also brutal in showing up lens deficiencies" I think that means that some lenses could look dreadful.

For example, when I moved from A7 to A7RII, several of the lenses I'd happily used on the 24mp sensor looked plain "bad" on the 42mp sensor. Two Canon TS lenses come to mind, the old FD 35mm and the EF MkI 24mm.

Though, yes, I did see that word "modern" in your reply, and my examples aren't.



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:10 AM
nazdravanul
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p.3 #9 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


phototiimo wrote:
I would assume almost any modern lenses would still see some benefits, though. I've seen pixel shift photos pull extra details from the corners of 28mm FE images shot at f2, so clearly there's still some justification for using the feature regardless of lenses used.


That's one of the reasons I'm on the fence with the move to s1r. The sony ecosystem is currently the best out there. I would really like to get rid of my remaining Otus lenses, for portability reasons - replace my 28 and 55 Otus with the Voitglanders 21, 40, and 65 APO. IF the IQ, at f5.6 and f8 withstands a 200 MP multishot - my 110 Voigtlander APO is amazing (both resolution and rendering, but on a 42 MP sensor). The only source of info, regarding 200 MP performance of lenses, is this, and it hasn't been updated in quite a while - but the Otus lenses rank quite a lot higher than anything else out there, so there may not be a viable trade off to be made:

http://www.lenscore.org

I can't afford the new Leica SL lenses, and the wide-angles are still being developed. They strike the best balance of portability (f2 designs), IQ (Leica modern APO + rendering), and functionality (AF + MF, weathersealed).



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:19 AM
timballic
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p.3 #10 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


If my experience in moving from 24 to 42mp sensor, holds true, I think "poor" lenses will be made to look worse, and really good lenses will be be able to shine.


Jul 14, 2019 at 07:25 AM
vdo1
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p.3 #11 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


This is the same flawed debate as in comparing sedans solely based on their towing capacity, without ever mentioning that, if hauling is the single important criteria, then a pick-up truck would be the real answer. Get a Phase One guys lol.

But then, where would be the pleasure of being able to declare all sports cars “crap” and the luxury ones “junk”?



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:31 AM
nazdravanul
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p.3 #12 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


vdo1 wrote:
This is the same flawed debate as in comparing sedans solely based on their towing capacity, without ever mentioning that, if hauling is the single important criteria, then a pick-up truck would be the real answer. Get a Phase One guys lol.

But then, where would be the pleasure of being able to declare all sports cars “crap” and the luxury ones “junk”?


If I could afford one, I would get it in a heartbeat
And I would actually go for the Hasselbad MS 400, again, if only I could afford to play the game at that financial level )
Slap those Rodenstock lenses on an Alpa FPS system and go off into the sunset )




Jul 14, 2019 at 07:41 AM
vdo1
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p.3 #13 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
If I could afford one, I would get it in a heartbeat
And I would actually go for the Hasselbad MS 400, again, if only I could afford to play the game at that financial level )
Slap those Rodenstock lenses on an Alpa FPS system and go off into the sunset )



Don’t forget they also still make slide film in 8x10 sheets

https://petapixel.com/2018/03/16/pixel-peeping-a-709-megapixel-photo-scanned-from-8x10-slide-film/



Jul 14, 2019 at 07:55 AM
nazdravanul
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p.3 #14 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


vdo1 wrote:
Don’t forget they also still make slide film in 8x10 sheets

https://petapixel.com/2018/03/16/pixel-peeping-a-709-megapixel-photo-scanned-from-8x10-slide-film/


I wouldn't shoot those contraptions without assistants ))

On a serious note - those are exactly the kind of resolutions I'm working with, after struggling with all sorts of stitching combinations (flat, nodal, mixed) + focus stacking (sometimes combined with tilt, to really make my life miserable ) ) . I'm spending hours in post, just to get a simple image going, before I do any further real compositing / collage. If I had it, I would pay serious money, to make my own life easier - and, as said before, to spend more time on composition and light, than resolution technicalities. Yes, the final print output is totally worth it. And yes, there is a significant difference between a 120 x 80 cm print and a 180 x 120cm print - in terms of both viewer impact and gear + effort required.



Jul 14, 2019 at 08:12 AM
realVivek
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p.3 #15 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Thanks. Perhaps Fuji’s new GFX cam would suit you better?

nazdravanul wrote:
I haven't yet jumped on the s1R as I'm hoping Sony will introduce this, in the next generation high megapixel camera. But, if this doesn't happen in the next few months, I will most probably end up with an S1R.

Examples of my current work (photos of some of my actual prints are in the exhibtions links): https://www.stefan-iacob.co.uk





Jul 14, 2019 at 08:38 AM
DannyBurkPhoto
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p.3 #16 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


I'll add a bit to the conversation, since it looks like I'm the only one here that has actually tried it, however briefly. (More on that in a moment.)

I got an S1R several days ago and have spent most of the time since then, literally, going through the manual and setting its options. Last November, I got a GFX 50S that basically replaced my A7RIII, but I was still in need of a full frame camera for certain lenses and situations. My frustration with the Sony meant that I wasn't willing to use it anymore, and after a lot of online study, I decided to try the S1R. It will be almost exclusively used with adapted manual lenses (same as the Sony), although I did buy the 24-105 for casual walkaround use since there were a lot of reports saying that it's surprisingly good.

Anyway, it's finally set up and I was anxious to try the pixel shift feature yesterday. Between the reviews and samples from LC, DPR, and Northlight, it looked promising enough to have real value for landscape, given the ability to use it with some ambient motion. I tried Sony's version when it came out, and it was next to useless for anything but product shots and the like; it reduced moire on fabric, but with no actual increase in pixel dimensions, and using it for anything other than fabric resulted in a nearly invisible improvement that only provided slight improvement when interpolating the file.

Conditions weren't good yesterday for the test; there was a lot of wind and constantly changing light. I'm hoping for better sometime this week. I composed a test that included the back of the house (brick) since that part wouldn't move, plus a couple of small trees, various plants around the house, and woods in the background. I tested both "Mode 1" (for unmoving objects) and "Mode 2" (with moving objects) to see what I'd get. Mode 1 wasn't usable at all, due to the large amount of moving foliage, which appeared as a blurred mess. Mode 2 shows a lot of promise, but does have a number of artifacts when viewed at 100%. Most of those can be cloned out, although I also tried downsampling and then most became invisible while still providing a very large file. My impression is that the less movement, the better; the 10-15 mph wind yesterday did it no favors.

I did the tests using a couple of very high quality lenses (Milvus 25 and Otus 55), which worked perfectly with the Sigma adapter. The resulting file is RAW and can be handled in ACR just like any other RAW file, and the camera can be set to shoot a normal file along with the composite. I didn't try it, but the normal file could be used for cloning, if necessary, after interpolating up to the size of the composite.

I don't feel that the tests are ready to post at this point, due to the bad weather and light conditions. I'll work on this soon and will post examples when I have more to show.



Jul 14, 2019 at 09:19 AM
nazdravanul
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p.3 #17 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


realVivek wrote:
Thanks. Perhaps Fuji’s new GFX cam would suit you better?



I am looking hard also into that option.



Jul 14, 2019 at 09:47 AM
hiepphotog
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p.3 #18 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
I wouldn't shoot those contraptions without assistants ))

On a serious note - those are exactly the kind of resolutions I'm working with, after struggling with all sorts of stitching combinations (flat, nodal, mixed) + focus stacking (sometimes combined with tilt, to really make my life miserable ) ) . I'm spending hours in post, just to get a simple image going, before I do any further real compositing / collage. If I had it, I would pay serious money, to make my own life easier - and, as said before, to spend more time on composition and light, than resolution
...Show more

Truly, for your use, I would buy either the Fuji (like Vivek suggested) or Panasonic together with the Leica SL APO lenses in a heartbeat when you do this as a living. Hours to mere minutes at best. Between the two, Panasonic has more flexibility in other types of photography but Fuji will offer the true detail advantage.



Jul 14, 2019 at 10:02 AM
nazdravanul
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p.3 #19 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


hiepphotog wrote:
Truly, for your use, I would buy either the Fuji (like Vivek suggested) or Panasonic together with the Leica SL APO lenses in a heartbeat when you do this as a living. Hours to mere minutes at best. Between the two, Panasonic has more flexibility in other types of photography but Fuji will offer the true detail advantage.


Yes, I am running the numbers, on those 2 options ) But I do want to wait a little bit more, to see what Sony or anyone else has to offer. The financial hit of the (any) switch is high.
Also, I have some doubts regarding Fuji. The images I've seen from the GFX 100 were not very compelling. Also their lenses have some sample variations and not all are up to snuff, afaik. But I need to research more into the system. I was hoping Hasselblad would release an incarnation of that sensor, as their lenses (starting with the 21) appear to be better and more consistent in performance.



Jul 14, 2019 at 10:05 AM
hiepphotog
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p.3 #20 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
Yes, I am running the numbers, on those 2 options ) But I do want to wait a little bit more, to see what Sony or anyone else has to offer. The financial hit of the (any) switch is high.
Also, I have some doubts regarding Fuji. The images I've seen from the GFX 100 were not very compelling. Also their lenses have some sample variations and not all are up to snuff, afaik. But I need to research more into the system. I was hoping Hasselblad would release an incarnation of that sensor, as their lenses (starting with the
...Show more

Wouldn't it be less of a hit if you just buy a camera and one lens for your art reproduction job while staying with Sony for other stuff? The time saving is very significant for your case I say. Probably I would just wait till the 17th to see what Sony is going to announce. Sony might eventually introduce this working function but I wouldn't hold my breath. I have been hoping for Sony to introduce the in-camera focus stacking function but it hasn't happened yet while others already have. It's not as critical for my product photography though so I'm still fine.

Regarding Fuji, just take a look at DPreview studio comparison, the GFX 100 clearly has the sharpness/details advantage over the Panasonic multishot. Fuji lenses are generally very good nowadays and some people said they're even better than any modern Hasselblad lenses. I imagine you can at least try the lens in store before purchase over there. That should help. Good luck!



Jul 14, 2019 at 10:22 AM
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