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Archive 2019 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode

  
 
hiepphotog
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p.6 #1 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
No, it will not. What is sharp at 61MP will not be equally sharp at 200MP. 100% magnification on the high rez image is a completely different beast than on the standard one.
While on Panasonic “magnification at high rez isn’t so good” on the Sony is non-existant. There is no high rez image, in camera. You are basically judging the sharpness of an equivalent 40MP photo based on a 10MP preview. It’s checking focus at precisely 25% magnification. Can you check proper DOF and critical focus at 25% ? Of course not.
Not to mention that, because you don’t have
...Show more

Let's make one thing clear. None of these multishot has a real resolution as they imply. So the difference might not be a big as you think. At best here, it's about the details you can extract from a monochrome sensor at the native MP.

And I meant the Focus Aid mag., not the replay mag.. I'm not sure how you are shooting out in the field, but a more competent Focus Aid mag. goes a long way to nail the focus where you want. The sharpest point in the DOF doesn't change whether you are on a 200MP or 61MP.

I won't deny that Panasonic's ability to preview the hi-res shot in camera and the much smaller file size. Like I said before as well, if this is what you are doing days in days out, Panasonic fits better. In studio art reproduction should be fine and possibly much better on the Sony, outdoor landscape, Panasonic wins in term of practicality. Vdo1 is right though, none of these will be a true high-res Medium format.



Jul 20, 2019 at 09:04 AM
nazdravanul
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p.6 #2 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode



hiepphotog wrote:
Let's make one thing clear. None of these multishot has a real resolution as they imply. So the difference might not be a big as you think. At best here, it's about the details you can extract from a monochrome sensor at the native MP.

And I meant the Focus Aid mag., not the replay mag.. I'm not sure how you are shooting out in the field, but a more competent Focus Aid mag. goes a long way to nail the focus where you want. The sharpest point in the DOF doesn't change whether you are on a 200MP or 61MP.

I
...Show more

If there is « no real resolution » where does the extra detail come from ?
And while the sharpest point of focus doesn't change with different capture resolutions, the limits of acceptable DOF change dramatically. What is perceived as perfectly sharp DOF at 100% magnification on a 10MP sensor is greatly reduced on a 42MP sensor. Not being able to see that difference, in the field, IS a big deal. Again, shoot your images with just 25% magnification preview, and check what % of those images are useable at 100%.

Edited on Jul 20, 2019 at 09:59 AM · View previous versions



Jul 20, 2019 at 09:46 AM
RoseandCharles
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p.6 #3 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
Looking forward to my own pre-order of the Sony multishot body, hoping that it's real life applicability will be comparable to the Panasonic S1r. There are some signs that already suggest that Sony's implementation will have more limitations (8 shots vs 16, in camera raw with independent raw convertors vs proprietary quirky Sony desktop app only conversion, Mode 2 vs ... ) but until we have a real camera to speak of, there's no point in speculating too much.




Regarding the composition of the component images into the final product, it seems that "mode 2" is likely just a different way of processing. I interpret that to mean that Sony could implement any number of modes to process the 16 component files if they wanted to.



Jul 20, 2019 at 09:57 AM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #4 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
If there is « no real resolution » where does the extra detail come from ?
And while the sharpest point of focus doesn't change with different capture resolutions, the limits of acceptable DOF change dramatically. What is perceived as perfectly sharp DOF at 100% magnification on a 10MP sensor is greatly reduced on a 42MP sensor. Not being able to see that difference, in the field, IS a big deal. Again, shoot your images with just 25% magnification preview, and check what % of those images are useable at 100%.


Please do explain how you think a multishot achieves more resolution. From my understanding, Multishot is to overcome the Bayer's extrapolation of data so from a resolution stand point, it's very much like a monochrome shot without the CFA. The gain is nowhere close to what a multi-row pano would produce at the same dimension.

I also understand perfect your point on the acceptable DOF sharpness between a 10MP and 42MP. That's why I don't ever use the focus scale on the old lenses anymore.

However, I'm not sure I understand the rest of your argument. Are you saying that Panasonic give you a full 47MP scene during the focus aid magnification and Sony can only provide a 10MP during the focus aid? If so, I am not sure I read that anywhere.

If you're saying that Panasonic has the ability to preview/review the Multishot picture afterward so you can scrutinize the details of the entire scene, then yes, Sony won't have that function. I rarely do that myself but I am not quite a perfectionist in that respect.



Jul 20, 2019 at 10:58 AM
vdo1
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p.6 #5 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
If there is « no real resolution » where does the extra detail come from ?
And while the sharpest point of focus doesn't change with different capture resolutions, the limits of acceptable DOF change dramatically. What is perceived as perfectly sharp DOF at 100% magnification on a 10MP sensor is greatly reduced on a 42MP sensor. Not being able to see that difference, in the field, IS a big deal. Again, shoot your images with just 25% magnification preview, and check what % of those images are useable at 100%.


Extra detail can be obtained simply by removing more noise, while operating within the same resolution frame.



Jul 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM
nazdravanul
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p.6 #6 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


vdo1 wrote:
Extra detail can be obtained simply by removing more noise, while operating within the same resolution frame.


Not 4 times more detail The Bayer matrix removal via true color capture doesn't account for that much. That's why you even have the difference between the 4 shots pixel shift and 16 shots pixel shift in the new Sony a7r4.



Jul 20, 2019 at 05:08 PM
RoseandCharles
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p.6 #7 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but maybe you're missing some of the point too. When the camera is using multi-shot, it's doing two things: cancelling out the bayer pattern for full color information at each channel, and also shifting the sensor by a half pixel and effectively sampling another point halfway between each pixel (again with full color per pixel). If it was quite that simple, it would in fact be true extra resolution up to the limitations of the lens/diffraction.

But it's not quite that simple. Each pixel is sampling some area of photons, like a bunch of buckets on the ground trying to catch rain water. In other words, they're sampling light within some area, and there is some edge area that is being missed. When you then shift the bucket pattern by half, you're now sampling a different area (likely the exact area that was being missed before, but there is also likely some overlap. This means it is absolutely catching more real detail, but it's also doing so with some area of confusion (or blur). This is still better than any single shot with no bayer cancelling, and almost certainly better than without the half-shift with bayer cancelling, but it's physically not the same as actually having a sensor with the true higher resolution (I withhold judgement as to whether it's better or worse).

Note also that for every extra shot, assuming the same exposure, you're capturing twice again (of the original) as much information about the scene. That alone (like average stacking to reduce noise) is going to give a better sample of the truth. In other words, more exposures, even just averaged together, is (essentially) always better. Using those extra exposures to cancel out the bayer pattern is a pretty clever way of using that data.

Is everyone arguing based on this same model or am I missing something?



Jul 20, 2019 at 05:26 PM
vdo1
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p.6 #8 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


RoseandCharles wrote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but maybe you're missing some of the point too. When the camera is using multi-shot, it's doing two things: cancelling out the bayer pattern for full color information at each channel, and also shifting the sensor by a half pixel and effectively sampling another point halfway between each pixel (again with full color per pixel). If it was quite that simple, it would in fact be true extra resolution up to the limitations of the lens/diffraction.

But it's not quite that simple. Each pixel is sampling some area of photons, like a bunch
...Show more

Yes I am aware that the sampling function is not a Dirac grid. And that the sampling is not simultaneous over the surface.

My remark was intended to underline that detail is not only a function of sampling density, but also of S/N ratio.




Jul 20, 2019 at 05:59 PM
nazdravanul
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p.6 #9 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


RoseandCharles wrote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but maybe you're missing some of the point too. When the camera is using multi-shot, it's doing two things: cancelling out the bayer pattern for full color information at each channel, and also shifting the sensor by a half pixel and effectively sampling another point halfway between each pixel (again with full color per pixel). If it was quite that simple, it would in fact be true extra resolution up to the limitations of the lens/diffraction.

But it's not quite that simple. Each pixel is sampling some area of photons, like a bunch
...Show more

Nope, you are not missing anything, that's pretty much it
Also we are arguing about the real life implications of not being able to preview the full 16 pixel shot, as the assembly is not done in camera. Essentially, in camera you are assessing the 61 MP file at 100% which is essentially assessing DOF at 25% magnification of the 240 MP file. The DOF limits are going to be significantly different on the larger resolution file vs the smaller one, at 100%. That, combined with the fact that you have no idea, until you reach a PC, if the assembly is successful (checkerboarding, un-fixable artefacts etc.) , raises serious concerns about the real life usability of the multishot, in the field (outside a studio with a fully tethered solution).
Also one shot bayer 100 MP or 150 MP vs perfectly executed 200 MP true colour multishot - better or worse ? On paper, the multishot should be better, primarily due to the true color capture vs the bayer capture. But, of course, the one shot doesn't suffer either from subject movement artefacts, or in the field effective IQ assessment (this last one seems to be done right by the Panasonic multishot implementation, with in-camera assembly of the multishot).



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:04 PM
vdo1
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p.6 #10 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


C’mon let’s remember the film days, you wouldn’t see the result either until it got processed, yet we weren’t questioning the “real life usability” of it.


Jul 20, 2019 at 06:10 PM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #11 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


RoseandCharles wrote:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you guys are saying, but maybe you're missing some of the point too. When the camera is using multi-shot, it's doing two things: cancelling out the bayer pattern for full color information at each channel, and also shifting the sensor by a half pixel and effectively sampling another point halfway between each pixel (again with full color per pixel). If it was quite that simple, it would in fact be true extra resolution up to the limitations of the shifted sensor.

But it's not quite that simple. Each pixel is sampling some area of photons, like a
...Show more

I believe my understanding of the process is very similar to yours. I, however, didn't realize that Sony does a full pixel shift with their 4-shot mode and Panasonic does a half pixel shift in their 8-shot mode. With that, the half shift does lower the sensor's pixel pitch, hence capturing even more details than just merely cancelling out Bayer demosaic effect. However, without the full pixel shift, some amount of Bayer extrapolation is still needed (probably what you meant by blur). This would negate some of the resolution jump from the shift. But it would yield a better

With Sony 16-shot, it's a combination of both (half and full shift). This should yield a better result. In theory, that might just be the equal of a half pixel pitch sensor (240MP).



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:13 PM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #12 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


vdo1 wrote:
C’mon let’s remember the film days, you wouldn’t see the result either until it got processed, yet we weren’t questioning the “real life usability” of it.


His case is special . I wouldn't argue with it. I used to do multi-row stitches to get more details. The framing is imprecise at best and movement is an issue as well. Obviously there is no preview of the shot either. Yet, I'm happy with it.



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:16 PM
RoseandCharles
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p.6 #13 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


nazdravanul wrote:
But, of course, the one shot doesn't suffer either from subject movement artefacts, or in the field effective IQ assessment (this last one seems to be done right by the Panasonic multishot implementation, with in-camera assembly of the multishot).


I really wish Sony did it in camera but there is an advantage to not doing so. Theoretically, better processing can be done, and it can more easily be updated, externally. Someone could, for example, make their own stacking software (a la Sequator) to stack the images and use human-provided information about where to apply motion correction/blur and where to maximize resolution. This is assuming the files are interpretable (not encrypted), and either Sony or some fine community member cares enough to provide it.

I've gotten used to the obnoxiousness of stacking workflows due to astro, and would be willing to go through a similar hassle if the results were worth it. That last bit remains to be seen.



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:26 PM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #14 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


RoseandCharles wrote:
I really wish Sony did it in camera but there is an advantage to not doing so. Theoretically, better processing can be done, and it can more easily be updated, externally. Someone could, for example, make their own stacking software (a la Sequator) to stack the images and use human-provided information about where to apply motion correction/blur and where to maximize resolution. This is assuming the files are interpretable (not encrypted), and either Sony or some fine community member cares enough to provide it.

I've gotten used to the obnoxiousness of stacking workflows due to astro, and would be willing to
...Show more

The Sony file is not encrypted but because most general software wouldn't know if it's a full pixel shift or more, the result wouldn't be as nice (no De-Bayering effect for instance).



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:32 PM
RoseandCharles
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p.6 #15 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


hiepphotog wrote:
The Sony file is not encrypted but because most general software wouldn't know if it's a full pixel shift or more, the result wouldn't be as nice (no De-Bayering effect for instance).


I would assume that information is encoded somehow in the file. How else would Sony stack them?



Jul 20, 2019 at 06:33 PM
racetratr
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p.6 #16 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


I seem to remember that RAW Therapee was able to filter motion artifacts out while processing Sony pixel shift files. Has anybody tried that? If RT could work with the new 16-image pixel shift, it might be a real option. In any case, somebody is sure to come up with software that can do this.


Jul 20, 2019 at 07:09 PM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #17 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


RoseandCharles wrote:
I would assume that information is encoded somehow in the file. How else would Sony stack them?


I thought by encrypted you meant other programs can't open those files. I'm sure they're encoded with the shift info to tell the program which one is shifted left, right, etc.



Jul 20, 2019 at 07:18 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.6 #18 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Sony or a third party company needs to design a software (better yet a plugin for LR and C1) that would take the 16-images, detect any motion blur causing artifacts and automatically replace the affect area(s) with the same area from one of the 16 images. (which won't be as sharp/clean but will be artifact free)
I think that would be a great workflow for getting super high res pixel-shifted images. Also offer a batch script that would detect the 4 or 16 pixel shifted images and do the entire process automatically while we are watching tv or browsing FM.



Jul 20, 2019 at 07:23 PM
hiepphotog
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p.6 #19 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Fred Miranda wrote:
Sony or a third party company needs to design a software (better yet a plugin for LR and C1) that would take the 16-images, detect any motion blur causing artifacts and automatically replace the affect area(s) with the same area from one of the 16 images. (which won't be as sharp/clean but will be artifact free)
I think that would be a great workflow for getting super high res pixel-shifted images. Also offer a batch script as where it would detect the 4 or 16 pixel shifted images and do the entire process automatically while we are watching tv or
...Show more

We can do layer mask still in Photoshop, but automated would be convenient. How slow is the 4-shot merge in Image Edge?



Jul 20, 2019 at 07:35 PM
RoseandCharles
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p.6 #20 · Nikon/Canon/Sony Image Quality vs Panasonic's Multi-Shot High-Res Mode


Fred Miranda wrote:
Sony or a third party company needs to design a software (better yet a plugin for LR and C1) that would take the 16-images, detect any motion blur causing artifacts and automatically replace the affect area(s) with the same area from one of the 16 images. (which won't be as sharp/clean but will be artifact free)
I think that would be a great workflow for getting super high res pixel-shifted images. Also offer a batch script as where it would detect the 4 or 16 pixel shifted images and do the entire process automatically while we are watching tv or
...Show more

I want this badly. Sony needs to hear this. Or someone more ambitious than me needs to take the time to write it.



Jul 20, 2019 at 07:42 PM
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