I came across this topic on today's Sonyalpharumours.com links. Diglloyd says the Panasonic S1R Multi-Shot High-Res Mode is “the Largest Advance in Image Quality in a Decade and It Works with Motion”
This isn't a Lloyd bashing thread, but a serious look at Panasonic S1R's multi-Shot High-Res mode
Some quotes from Lloyd Chambers (diglloyd's) open/public blog. (As it's his Open blog, I hope it's OK to post them here for comment?)
"The standard Bayer matrix capture quality with Nikon/Canon/Sony is CRAP compared to what is possible with (Panasonic's) Multi-Shot High-Res mode."
"I have been seeing terrific improvements in resolution and ultra low noise with the Multi-Shot High-Res mode of the Panasonic S1R, (covered and shown in detail in diglloyd L-Mount Mirrorless.) The sheer quality of the images is something new. One thing has emerged as a disappointing limiting factor: lens performance well below the demands of 187 megapixels.
"Most incredible of all: Multi-Shot High-Res mode works under field conditions, making it a real feature for real images outdoors under many (not all) conditions—unlike pixel shift—whoohoo!
Cameras with pixel shift are prone to severe and prominent artifacts like checkerboarding that are just about impossible to deal with, making pixel shift pretty much useless for field shooting, a finding from long experience and true of Pentax and Sony pixel shift (I have probably 50GB of ruined Pentax and Sony pixel shift files).
But the Panasonic S1R uses an 8-frame multi-shot high-res mode approach that performs in-camera merging of those 8 frames into single raw file with size equivalent to four frames. A smart merge, not a dumb-recording science fair project like Pentax and Sony.
Comments on the Panasonic's mode rather than diglloyd please! Is this something we should be crying out to Sony to implement in the next versions?
I actually was thinking about getting the S1R just because of this feature.
I'm going to wait until the Call to see what Sony announces. They've been pumping a lot of money into computational imaging too so my moneys on that they will have something similar or better with the next gen.
ftllens wrote:
I actually was thinking about getting the S1R just because of this feature.
I'm going to wait until the Call to see what Sony announces. They've been pumping a lot of money into computational imaging too so my moneys on that they will have something similar or better with the next gen.
And this will only benefit scenes completely without movement and you still risk getting weird artifacts when there is movement? In which case this is just a useless gimmick to me, can't understand why some people make such a big deal of it. Even most landscapes I shoot have movement, waves in water, wind in trees/grass/leaves and so on.
Funny: The same guys who do long exposures all day to get these nice water effects or a starry sky bash the Panasonic hi-res mode because "things get blurry" :-D
randomguy wrote:
And this will only benefit scenes completely without movement and you still risk getting weird artifacts when there is movement? In which case this is just a useless gimmick to me, can't understand why some people make such a big deal of it. Even most landscapes I shoot have movement, waves in water, wind in trees/grass/leaves and so on.
Ah, I thought diglloyd's point was that its smart processing managed to "deal" with such problems?
If not, I'm in total agreement with you.
See next post for comment on above, after further investigation:
I've been investigating further and it seems that Panasonic High-Res mode, has two modes for dealing with motion blur.
Mode 1 for images where nothing moves and Mode 2 for those with motion, leaves etc moving, and from the few reviews I read, it works well, by choosing just those parts of the 8x shots that coincide, and if non do, choosing the sharpest single frame in the moving areas, though then, in just those areas of motion, the resolution will fall back to 47mp instead of the 187mp for the rest of the shot.
Again, diglloyd comments in his open blog: Can the Panasonic S1R Multi-Shot High-Res mode be used without unwanted digital artifacts with subject motion? Here HighRes mode 2* is used and compared to a single-shot frame.
*Mode 1 = “Motion blur appears as afterimage in the picture.”
Mode 2 = “An afterimage of motion blur is minimized.”
(Full results only viewable In diglloyd L-Mount Mirrorless. )
Summary: "For the first time besides an iPhone, I’m seeing a pro-grade field-usable computational photography feature. Huge kudos to Panasonic for unf**king what the other guys could not get right."
I 'm pretty sure that Lloyd is very hard to please, and if it was a load of garbage, he isn't slow to say so! So, my take is that IT CAN BE USED VERY SUCCESSFULLY FOR LANDSCAPES WITH MOVING PARTS! That's smart!
From his open blog, the two cons/caveats to High-Res mode, are that files are 4x larger than normal, and only a few lenses are good enough for the full benefits to be realised, (on the S1R)
lightskyland wrote:
There is no reason a better program for doing this cannot be developed to process Sony multishot.
Doing multishot processing in camera is a mistake IMO, anyway.
If it generates a RAW useable file, like Panasonic does, there's nothing wrong with it. You can always shoot a 1 single shot correction frame, for it, if needed.
Sony's current pixel shift implementation in a7r3 is a complete mess.
Multi-shot high-res mode, the pixel peeper's ultimate pixel peeper's enabler!
One of the next major technology shifts already underway, the multi-shot high-res mode deployed in the S1r is just the beginning. As more and more companies invest in and develop this technology along with the HW/electronics to support needed processing and throughput, in-camera, other stand alone post processing apps outside of the camera will progress as well. In-camera is just one approach but will no doubt help sell more new upgraded camera models. Leica is now fully onboard and investing heavily and Sony too.
Personally, I'd also like to see this technology implemented in the small compact travel zoom cameras at some point so we don't have to worry so much about IQ hits when we just need something small and zoomy.
nazdravanul wrote:
If it generates a RAW useable file, like Panasonic does, there's nothing wrong with it. You can always shoot a 1 single shot correction frame, for it, if needed.
Sony's current pixel shift implementation in a7r3 is a complete mess.
There is something wrong with it.
RAW means what the camera captured.
The Panasonic file is processed in camera. That means if better multishot algorithms come along, people with Panasonic pseudo-RAW files can never take advantage of them.
The Sony implementation only needs a better computer program (probably third-party) and can implement a Panasonic-style movement removal algorithm.
Absolute crap images from Sony! My A9 can't shoot anymore, I'll sell tomorrow!
These claims are crappier than any Sony/Canon/Nikon images can put out at any resolution. Clickbait once again.
I am sure there will be some who takes advantage of this, but it's not working when it should (lenses, which seemed to be top level, does not resolve that added resolution, so what's the eventual point? and then... we use this to show Pixel Peep 100% crops on forums?). Maybe in the future?
One of the next major technology shifts already underway, the multi-shot high-res mode deployed in the S1r is just the beginning. As more and more companies invest in and develop this technology along with the HW/electronics to support needed processing and throughput, in-camera, other stand alone post processing apps outside of the camera will progress as well. In-camera is just one approach but will no doubt help sell more new upgraded camera models. Leica is now fully onboard and investing heavily and Sony too.
Personally, I'd also like to see this technology implemented in the small compact travel zoom cameras at some point so we don't have to worry so much about IQ hits when we just need something small and zoomy.
For internet photography warriors, yes, it's all about pixel peeping porn.
But, for 2m or 3m gallery prints, it's an invaluable creative tool. I'm spending way too much time just stitching (flat, nodal, mixed) and retouching files, instead of allocating that time to composition and lighting.
Stitching IQ is always going to destroy multishot IQ. Because you are not magnifying lens defects. If you really care about large gallery prints you need to be stitching or else using the biggest, highest MP sensors available.
lightskyland wrote:
Stitching IQ is always going to destroy multishot IQ. Because you are not magnifying lens defects. If you really care about large gallery prints you need to be stitching or else using the biggest, highest MP sensors available.
I was just going to ask, because I'm pretty ignorant of this pixel shift / multishot stuff...are these magnifying lens defects? So pixel shift / multishot effectively acts like a higher resolution, more pixel dense sensor, while with stitching you're effectively increasing the area covered by both the sensor and the lens.
This does seem like this would limit the utility of pixel shift / multishot to just the very best lenses available right now.
I don’t need or want 100mp+ images, but isn’t the Kando Raw+ program, a free download, supposed to achieve something like this, or does it only give you dynamic range, not pixel density?
