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Archive 2019 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon

  
 
1bwana1
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p.15 #1 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Not to mention that the mirrorless path eventually leads to a global shutter. No moving parts for a shutter at all. I would not be surprised if this is the "revolutionary" improvement that Sony keeps hinting at for the a9II release this Fall.

Then everyone else will be a couple of generations behind in focus, and even further behind in shutter, and likely frames per second.




May 03, 2019 at 08:52 PM
Gunzorro
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p.15 #2 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


In practical terms for general professional use, I don't find Canon and Nikon that far off Sony for image capture and manipulation. I freely admit that Sony has an imaging edge with its DR, but match or exceeding the resolution has Nikon and Canon right there for normal daylight and studio work.

I have no use for either the a9, Canon 1DX2 or Nikon D5. I can get by on a couple FPS in the work I do, and I feel I have more in common with enthusiast shooters than Sports or Nature pros.

For me, I love the 42MP sensor of the Sony a7R2 (and I'm sure I'd like the a7R3 just as much, or more). But after going out today with Canon 5DsR 51MP and Sony a7R2, using Zeiss ZE glass, the Canon did great on architecture, surrounding landscaping, and still subjects. Actually, I was able to more easily focus the Canon with these manual focus lenses using the focus alert beep and viewfinder prompt along with confirming the hyperfocal distance scale on the lens, vs. magnified EVF on the Sony. Actually, the Canon was much faster to use with small aperture settings.

One area of ancient technology that I find useful in Canon DSLR (and Nikon too) is the Depth of Field Preview, especially useful for manual shooting with focus shift lenses. As far as I can tell, there is no handy button to check focus at shooting aperture on the Sony.

I really was impressed testing the Canon R, and if it had higher MP sensor (and IBIS would be nice), I would probably own one right now to go along with my Sony gear.

I know we are in a Sony forum here, and most members will probably not agree with me. But I find the brands are all very close and all produce tremendous results with very little effort. This frees me to concentrate on choosing subject and overall framing, then finishing to taste in PP.

Possibly coming from a large and medium format background, I find we have incredible choices in this era of electronic imaging. I'm grateful, and try to embrace the various systems as best I can.

I'm certainly curious about the 2020 Olympics about what Canon might have up their sleeve for Mirrorless and DSLR, and how much of an in-road Sony can make with the a9 or a9II.

For now, I'm doing fine with a7R, a7R2 and Canon 5DsR, 1Ds3/1D3 models.



May 03, 2019 at 08:57 PM
bjornthun
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p.15 #3 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


RustyBug wrote:
The days of a silver mirror reflecting 100% light to the OVF are very far behind us.



Those cameras are of course manual focus, but the OVFs in those oldies are ahead of current DSLRs imho.

I use Sony mirrorless now. The Olympus OM-1 and Nikon FM2 remain fond memories.



May 03, 2019 at 09:00 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.15 #4 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Gunzorro wrote:
In practical terms for general professional use, I don't find Canon and Nikon that far off Sony for image capture and manipulation. I freely admit that Sony has an imaging edge with its DR, but match or exceeding the resolution has Nikon and Canon right there for normal daylight and studio work.

I have no use for either the a9, Canon 1DX2 or Nikon D5. I can get by on a couple FPS in the work I do, and I feel I have more in common with enthusiast shooters than Sports or Nature pros.

For me, I love the 42MP sensor
...Show more

Like you Jim, I don't need the AF or the frames per second of the Sony A9, but my wife has this camera and that doesn't mean there aren't still things that I really like about it that are unique. First, the fact that you can shoot everything except flash with the silent electronic shutter is a big deal. There are basically no penalties to using the silent shutter either. I think being able to shoot silently matters to a lot of people in a number of situations. Second, I love the blackout free viewfinder. Again until you shoot with it and experience what it is like to have to not have the view finder even blink when you are shooting it is hard to appreciate how nice that is.

By the way Sony does have a shooting effect preview setting that you assign to any of the custom buttons. If you do it works much like depth of field preview but you get more including the effects of any exposure compensation in the viewfinder as well. Shutting this off the camera focusses at the widest aperture, but with it on the camera focusses at the shooting aperture. So, if that matters to you it is a good thing to set to a custom button.

Finally, I do agree that all the top cameras from the major manufacturers have very good IQ, but I won't be going back to a DSLR. For me magnification in the viewfinder is something I won't give up for shooting manual focus and when I have to shoot AF it is so handy to not have all the focus points clustered in the centre. I also really like having exposure previewed in the viewfinder, and now the ability to shoot silently is also a huge advantage. None of these things would I be willing to give up and go back to a DSLR, but people clearly have different preferences and understandably, YMMV.



May 03, 2019 at 09:18 PM
technic
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p.15 #5 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


hiepphotog wrote:
I'm not sure why you think the whole stacked sensor is not commercially viable since the A9 has it and there are certainly enough A9 out there to go around. And I don't think too expensive to sell to third parties would be a good reason either. If anything, if someone is willing to pay, it's in their interest to sell to help with the R&D anyway. It's whether Nikon chooses to do so or not.

Now, I can buy the argument that Nikon engineers didn't have the know-how to incorporate stacked sensor into the rest of the system that is
...Show more

I didn't say it isn't commercially viable, obviously it IS viable in some way for Sony itself if only because of the marketing value of such halo technology. But the technology is likely too expensive if offered to third parties. You don't know how much money Sony makes or loses on an A9; that there is just one camera of this type now suggests the finances aren't attractive. Nikon is not going to pay for all the Sony development cost and Sony is not going to eat these costs just so they can help out a potential competitor. This might change by the time we have an A9II or mini-A9, with (large size) stacked sensors in more Sony products indicating that the technology is more mature on the commercial side.



May 04, 2019 at 04:31 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.15 #6 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


The aim would be to have a camera that can do AF based on the actual image (say, eye-detection) while retaining fast AF that mirrorless don't achieve at present. In addition, the image sensor would not need to have any AF circuitry, so that it can be optimized for image quality.


May 04, 2019 at 04:33 AM
bjornthun
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p.15 #7 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


technic wrote:
I didn't say it isn't commercially viable, obviously it IS viable in some way for Sony itself if only because of the marketing value of such halo technology. But the technology is likely too expensive if offered to third parties. You don't know how much money Sony makes or loses on an A9; that there is just one camera of this type now suggests the finances aren't attractive. Nikon is not going to pay for all the Sony development cost and Sony is not going to eat these costs just so they can help out a potential competitor. This might
...Show more

By the same argument, there are few Nikon D5 and Canon 1DX mkX cameras, and yet they make them. There is obviously more to these calculations of profit than we know here.



May 04, 2019 at 04:51 AM
technic
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p.15 #8 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


AcuteShadows wrote:
The aim would be to have a camera that can do AF based on the actual image (say, eye-detection) while retaining fast AF that mirrorless don't achieve at present. In addition, the image sensor would not need to have any AF circuitry, so that it can be optimized for image quality.


Why do you think such a DSLR would have faster AF than a mirrorless camera with the same eye detection / tracking etc.? It does't make sense to me, even ignoring the basic limitations of the mirror box and higher cost factor.



May 04, 2019 at 07:38 AM
LBJ2
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p.15 #9 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


For those that might be interested: S1R vs Nikon Z7 vs A7rIII Not sure why they didn't include the Canon EOS R.



Edited on May 04, 2019 at 07:44 AM · View previous versions



May 04, 2019 at 07:43 AM
technic
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p.15 #10 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


bjornthun wrote:
By the same argument, there are few Nikon D5 and Canon 1DX mkX cameras, and yet they make them. There is obviously more to these calculations of profit than we know here.


That isn't the same situation: Canon doesn't need D5 technology to make a 1DX2 and Nikon doesn't need 1DX2 technology to make their D5. They have their own technology available, no need to buy major system components or technology from the competitor (which could increase the price significantly or create certain restrictions).



May 04, 2019 at 07:43 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.15 #11 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


LBJ2 wrote:
For those that might be interested: S1R vs Nikon Z7 vs A7rIII Not sure why they didn't include the Canon EOS R.



I think the Canon EOS R gets left out because it is 30MP vs. 42-47 MP. To me it makes more sense to compare the Canon R with the Sony a7 III, Nikon Z6, and Panasonic S1. It seems to me 30MP is much more like 24MP than 42-47 MP.



May 04, 2019 at 08:12 AM
1bwana1
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p.15 #12 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


LBJ2 wrote:
For those that might be interested: S1R vs Nikon Z7 vs A7rIII Not sure why they didn't include the Canon EOS R.



Very well done video, with a balanced, and I think accurate view of the cameras strengths and weaknesses. Thanks for posting.




May 04, 2019 at 09:46 AM
Gunzorro
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p.15 #13 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the Canon EOS R gets left out because it is 30MP vs. 42-47 MP. To me it makes more sense to compare the Canon R with the Sony a7 III, Nikon Z6, and Panasonic S1. It seems to me 30MP is much more like 24MP than 42-47 MP.


I doubt Canon needs the extra marketing exposure.

Still, I'd be curious to see how the Canon compares against the others in the same general price/performance range.

From my limited use of the R (around 600 images, in two sessions at Canon Burbank), I came near the tipping point toward eventual purchase. The 30MP holds up pretty well against the older Sony/NIkon 36MP offerings, and I still use my a7R without detriment to my a7R2 42MP. There is a stronger difference between the R (and the 5D4 the sensor is based on) and the 5Ds/R 51MP sensor, but that's expected I think.




May 04, 2019 at 10:05 AM
hiepphotog
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p.15 #14 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


technic wrote:
I didn't say it isn't commercially viable, obviously it IS viable in some way for Sony itself if only because of the marketing value of such halo technology. But the technology is likely too expensive if offered to third parties. You don't know how much money Sony makes or loses on an A9; that there is just one camera of this type now suggests the finances aren't attractive. Nikon is not going to pay for all the Sony development cost and Sony is not going to eat these costs just so they can help out a potential competitor. This might
...Show more

You said it has low yield for commercial production but as I pointed out, there are plenty of A9 going around. I doubt they're selling it at loss since they can afford to offer a 1k drop on it now. Neither you nor I know how much Sony is making on these A9 anyway so we have our own interpretation.

What I don't get is why you think it would be too costly to offer to a third party. If it is expensive, the buyer should pay accordingly. It's their choice to do so or not. Sony hasn't released any other stacked sensor camera till now cause they don't have any need to release any new camera after the Canikon and Panasonic mirrorless release. The rumored A7SIII might have that stacked sensor but Sony is still working at it to offer something more than the competition. The APS-C market is neglected by Sony this whole time (right move I say) so I don't see why they needed to put a stacked sensor on the A6400 when it would drive up the cost of the camera.

It's just all speculations on our part and I do feel this will go on and on with no end. So let's just leave it at that.



May 04, 2019 at 10:22 AM
technic
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p.15 #15 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


hiepphotog wrote:
The APS-C market is neglected by Sony this whole time (right move I say) so I don't see why they needed to put a stacked sensor on the A6400 when it would drive up the cost of the camera.


This is contrary to the very explicit statements from the Sony manager about such a high end APS-C camera. From this interview (and some other sources) it is clear that the main problem is the cost of these stacked sensors and they will introduce an APS-C version as soon as that is feasible. But call it all baseless speculation if you want ...



May 04, 2019 at 10:36 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.15 #16 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


technic wrote:
Why do you think such a DSLR would have faster AF than a mirrorless camera with the same eye detection / tracking etc.? It does't make sense to me, even ignoring the basic limitations of the mirror box and higher cost factor.


DSLR now has faster AF than mirrorless. I assume this primarily due to the fact that a mirrorless camera must limit the area dedicated to AF on the sensor in order not to degrade image quality. If you have AF away from the image sensor, you can use the entire area for AF. Or, alternatively, you can use some of the area for image analysis, and the remaining part for phase AF. As you don't need perfect image quality for image analysis, the area dedicated to AF can be larger in this case.




May 04, 2019 at 10:49 AM
hiepphotog
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p.15 #17 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


technic wrote:
This is contrary to the very explicit statements from the Sony manager about such a high end APS-C camera. From this interview (and some other sources) it is clear that the main problem is the cost of these stacked sensors and they will introduce an APS-C version as soon as that is feasible. But call it all baseless speculation if you want ...


Well, let's just say it's the same as they said they will continue their development of the A-mount. I'll believe it when I see it.



May 04, 2019 at 11:01 AM
LBJ2
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p.15 #18 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the Canon EOS R gets left out because it is 30MP vs. 42-47 MP. To me it makes more sense to compare the Canon R with the Sony a7 III, Nikon Z6, and Panasonic S1. It seems to me 30MP is much more like 24MP than 42-47 MP.


I'm sure they had their reasons. Maybe as you suggested. To me a very balanced compare and would like to see Canon included with this technique.

Looking forward to a similar DPR Sony a7 III vs Nikon Z6 vs Panasonic S1 vs Canon EOS R compare next. To me this format certainly provides potential buys which camera might be best for respective applications.



May 04, 2019 at 01:34 PM
LBJ2
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p.15 #19 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Gunzorro wrote:
I doubt Canon needs the extra marketing exposure.

Still, I'd be curious to see how the Canon compares against the others in the same general price/performance range.

From my limited use of the R (around 600 images, in two sessions at Canon Burbank), I came near the tipping point toward eventual purchase. The 30MP holds up pretty well against the older Sony/NIkon 36MP offerings, and I still use my a7R without detriment to my a7R2 42MP. There is a stronger difference between the R (and the 5D4 the sensor is based on) and the 5Ds/R 51MP sensor, but that's
...Show more

"I doubt Canon needs the extra marketing exposure. "
I remember listening to the reviewers on Youtube who attended the Canon EOS R announcement/event in Hawaii. When compared to the major Nikon Z announcement/event, the reviewers commented Canon seemed nonchalant ( my word) when announcing the EOS R compared to the high energy Nikon Z message approach they observed at the Nikon Z event.



May 04, 2019 at 01:40 PM
Sauseschritt
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p.15 #20 · FF Mirrorless, what's it going to take Sony, Canon, Nikon


Who gives a frak about press events ?!?!? Those are entertainment, and part of marketing.


May 04, 2019 at 05:04 PM
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