This topic is in the 2018 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2018Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
p.41 #1Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Kalainen wrote:
Sure, I get your point here. Personally, I'm not against transfering the raw-files to another device. I could, for example, transfer them to to my PC where I have even more powerful computer with larger screen and everything. However, the thing is (I'm guessing here) that younger generation doesn't want to wait for separate editing, especially waiting for home just to see what the files would look like with some editing. Would they like to edit their pictures separately with phone. I don't know.
I think we're missing each other here, so perhaps I'm guilty of not explaining it very well.
As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Kalainen wrote:
I think Zeiss tries to solve *the problem* the whole camera industry has - and they are far more innovative than traditional manufacturers. - cameras vs phones - that's one of the biggest current conversation that one can find on every photography forum. Compared to phones the current cameras (with their 'floppy disks', '80s computer menus' and 'no connection') resemble something like the Nokia 3110 vs Pixels and iPhones.
Again, this isn't a young persons perspective and doesn't really understand or take into account how people use Pixels and iPhones. The Zeiss doesn't make anything easier. Pixel and iPhone users want to, uh, use their Pixel and iPhone. They're connected to all their social media accounts; by definition, the photo has to make it there first if they want to use it.
Kalainen wrote:
Camera industry is in the bad shape, and while it will never die and there will always be need for a dedicated cameras, someone needs to come up with something else than 'more megapixels'. Someone needs to close the gap between cameras and phones, and I think ZEISS doing exactly that here.
How? What gap are they closing?
Kalainen wrote:
And I honestly think this is currently the best attempt to do just that. I get that some don't like to look of it and others are irritated about the price, but I think Zeiss deserves a little recognition here - they are doing something else and fresh here. Just for the sake of comparisation, Sony just refreshed their menus on A7 cameras; nice but still kind of 80's looking compared to ZX1... Okay, that was a bit under the belt there
Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.
I'll give them credit for their engineering. But is it so fresh? It's like a 50 something's view of what 'kids these days' want...a $6k camera with RAW editing? C'mon.
Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
]Kalainen wrote:
Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
Right, and here we totally agree: it is more about the experience. But Zeiss doesn't know what that experience is, IMO. The 'experience' young people seek is the immediate feedback and interaction of a Story that disappears in 24 hours. If they want a photographic experience, it's likely film, maybe a Fuji with film simulations. But mostly their phone.
Sure, I get your point here. Personally, I'm not against transfering the raw-files to another device. I could, for example, transfer them to to my PC where I have even more powerful computer with larger screen and everything. However, the thing is (I'm guessing here) that younger generation doesn't want to wait for separate editing, especially waiting for home just to see what the files would look like with some editing. Would they like to edit their pictures separately with phone. I don't know.
I think we're missing each other here, so perhaps I'm guilty of not explaining it very well.
As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Kalainen wrote:
I think Zeiss tries to solve *the problem* the whole camera industry has - and they are far more innovative than traditional manufacturers. - cameras vs phones - that's one of the biggest current conversation that one can find on every photography forum. Compared to phones the current cameras (with their 'floppy disks', '80s computer menus' and 'no connection') resemble something like the Nokia 3110 vs Pixels and iPhones.
Again, this isn't a young persons perspective and doesn't really understand or take into account how people use Pixels and iPhones. The Zeiss doesn't make anything easier. Pixel and iPhone users want to, uh, use their Pixel and iPhone. They're connected to all their social media accounts; by definition, the photo has to make it there first if they want to use it.
Kalainen wrote:
Camera industry is in the bad shape, and while it will never die and there will always be need for a dedicated cameras, someone needs to come up with something else than 'more megapixels'. Someone needs to close the gap between cameras and phones, and I think ZEISS doing exactly that here.
How? What gap are they closing?
Kalainen wrote:
And I honestly think this is currently the best attempt to do just that. I get that some don't like to look of it and others are irritated about the price, but I think Zeiss deserves a little recognition here - they are doing something else and fresh here. Just for the sake of comparisation, Sony just refreshed their menus on A7 cameras; nice but still kind of 80's looking compared to ZX1... Okay, that was a bit under the belt there
Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that. I'll give them credit for their engineering. But is it so fresh? It's like a 50 something's view of what 'kids these days' want...a $6k camera with RAW editing? C'mon.
Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
]Kalainen wrote:
Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
Right, and here we totally agree: it is more about the experience. But Zeiss doesn't know what that experience is, IMO. The 'experience' young people seek is the immediate feedback and interaction of a Story that disappears in 24 hours. If they want a photographic experience, it's likely film, maybe a Fuji with film simulations. But mostly their phone.
Nov 02, 2020 at 06:53 PM
p.41 #2Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Kalainen wrote:
Regarding the image editing, here's how I see it: the problem with the current cameras is that you can customize a bit how the jpegs come out of the camera, like affecting contrast, saturation etc., but it feels very limited and old-fashioned compared to what is achievable with dedicated post processing software. If cameras should offer editing capabilities, which kind of capabilities they would need to be? The solution that every camera manufacturer comes up with their own editing capabilities feels cumbersome because they will still be different and worst that what the modern post processing software offer. *To me*,...Show more →
Zeiss isnt solving a single problem with their dead-on-arrival-overpriced-boat anchor of a camera. No one of any realistic means is spending 6 grand to buy a camera that was a laughing stock in the industry years ago. A 2 year old iPhone runs rings around this embarrassing and humiliating "effort" by Zeiss.
Nov 02, 2020 at 08:13 PM
p.41 #3Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
I stand corrected...you can post to Instagram directly from the camera. That makes so much more sense. That said, the price is likely still going to be impossible for the average Instagram poster. But I can shutup about that now because someone did think of it...but didn't think to put it front and centre in their advertising vs. the Adobe integration...this would again tell me who the camera is designed for.
But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...
But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...
Nov 03, 2020 at 09:36 AM
p.41 #4Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Dave Sanders wrote:
I stand corrected...you can post to Instagram directly from the camera. That makes so much more sense. That said, the price is likely still going to be impossible for the average Instagram poster. But I can shutup about that now because someone did think of it...but didn't think to put it front and centre in their advertising vs. the Adobe integration...this would again tell me who the camera is designed for.
But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...
I get the feeling this camera is not targeted at the average 20-30 year old. As you suggested, the feature set assumes greater 'traditional' photographic background. The price point also assumes a certain degree of disposable income, to which older demographics are usually more applicable.
Because it doesn't directly target the Instagram/social media crowd/youth, doesn't mean a valid target market doesn't exist. It means it's a much more niche market. Whether or not Zeiss have correctly marketed the camera is another matter. I seem to recall mention of photojournalists, a field in which I have worked. In an age of 'streamlined' news organizations (tighter budgets) where an ILC system offers greater general flexibility and and a lot of actual reporting can be done with 'good enough' photos and video from a phone, this camera has an extremely narrow application. Sure, photojournalists could use it, as they could pretty much anything. I'm just not convinced this group will feel it addresses a real need. Whether the camera will be a 'success' depends on Zeiss's sales forecasts. Given that they've pushed through to actual delivery suggests they think they'll be able to achieve their goals.
All that said, for me, the camera misses the mark. I'm less interested in fixed lens at that size and the price point is certainly not attractive. Otherwise, I'd probably already have a Leica Q or Sony RX1.
I stand corrected...you can post to Instagram directly from the camera. That makes so much more sense. That said, the price is likely still going to be impossible for the average Instagram poster. But I can shutup about that now because someone did think of it...but didn't think to put it front and centre in their advertising vs. the Adobe integration...this would again tell me who the camera is designed for.
But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...
I get the feeling this camera is not targeted at the average 20-30 year old. As you suggested, the feature set assumes greater 'traditional' photographic background. The price point also assumes a certain degree of disposable income, to which older demographics are usually more applicable.
Because it doesn't directly target the Instagram/social media crowd/youth, doesn't mean a valid target market doesn't exist. It means it's a much more niche market. Whether or not Zeiss have correctly marketed the camera is another matter. I seem to recall mention of photojournalists, a field in which I have worked. In an age of 'streamlined' news organizations (tighter budgets) where an ILC system offers greater general flexibility and and a lot of actual reporting can be done with 'good enough' photos and video from a phone, this camera has an extremely narrow application. Sure, photojournalists could use it, as they could pretty much anything. I'm just not convinced this group will feel it addresses a real need. Whether the camera will be a 'success' depends on Zeiss's sales forecasts. Given that they've pushed through to actual delivery suggests they think they'll be able to achieve their goals.
All that said, for me, the camera misses the mark. I'm less interested in fixed lens at that size and the price point is certainly not attractive. Otherwise, I'd probably already have a Leica Q or Sony RX1.
Nov 03, 2020 at 10:07 AM
p.41 #5Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
rscheffler wrote:
But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...I get the feeling this camera is not targeted at the average 20-30 year old. As you suggested, the feature set assumes greater 'traditional' photographic background. The price point also assumes a certain degree of disposable income, to which older demographics are usually more applicable.
Because it doesn't directly target the Instagram/social media crowd/youth, doesn't mean a valid target market doesn't exist. It means it's a much more niche market. Whether or not Zeiss have correctly marketed the camera is another matter. I seem to recall mention of photojournalists, a field in which I have worked. In an age of...Show more →
I'm in total agreement. I see that it's a better design exercise that I had originally thought but I still don't see the point. If camera makers want to compete in a 'connected' world, they should worry about getting the image to a user's device easily and effortlessly. I'd much rather edit and share from my phone. There's nothing about working with the back of a camera that's more convenient, IMO.
They'll sell some, I'm sure, will they sell enough to justify keeping it updated?
Dave Sanders wrote
I stand corrected...you can post to Instagram directly from the camera. That makes so much more sense. That said, the price is likely still going to be impossible for the average Instagram poster. But I can shutup about that now because someone did think of it...but didn't think to put it front and centre in their advertising vs. the Adobe integration...this would again tell me who the camera is designed for.But good on Zeiss, I'll prepare my crow now...
Because it doesn't directly target the Instagram/social media crowd/youth, doesn't mean a valid target market doesn't exist. It means it's a much more niche market. Whether or not Zeiss have correctly marketed the camera is another matter. I seem to recall mention of photojournalists, a field in which I have worked. In an age of...Show more →
I'm in total agreement. I see that it's a better design exercise that I had originally thought but I still don't see the point. If camera makers want to compete in a 'connected' world, they should worry about getting the image to a user's device easily and effortlessly. I'd much rather edit and share from my phone. There's nothing about working with the back of a camera that's more convenient, IMO.
They'll sell some, I'm sure, will they sell enough to justify keeping it updated?
Nov 03, 2020 at 10:14 AM
p.41 #6Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
Nov 03, 2020 at 10:27 AM
p.41 #7Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
uscmatt99 wrote:
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.
Nov 03, 2020 at 10:31 AM
p.41 #8Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
uscmatt99 wrote:
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
You get it!
"Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package."
As far as some of the other $6K sticker shock comments on this thread and elsewhere...we all know, Zeiss is a premium brand and after how many camera-less decades... the storied Carl Zeiss was not going to come to market with a budget/affordable camera nor another Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic mirrorless look alike. "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works"
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
You get it!
"Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package."
As far as some of the other $6K sticker shock comments on this thread and elsewhere...we all know, Zeiss is a premium brand and after how many camera-less decades... the storied Carl Zeiss was not going to come to market with a budget/affordable camera nor another Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic mirrorless look alike. "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works"
Nov 03, 2020 at 11:34 AM
p.41 #9Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Dave Sanders wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.
I may share images on platforms in low-res, but I like to have a full-res copy of everything I want to keep. Not unusual to share a pic that someone wants for themselves, in which case I'll send a full-size edited JPEG. It's also nice to take photos with a wide dynamic range that allow for easy WB, shadow and highlight manipulation without falling apart. JPEG is alright, but why not use RAW if available and transparent in use?
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers.
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
I may share images on platforms in low-res, but I like to have a full-res copy of everything I want to keep. Not unusual to share a pic that someone wants for themselves, in which case I'll send a full-size edited JPEG. It's also nice to take photos with a wide dynamic range that allow for easy WB, shadow and highlight manipulation without falling apart. JPEG is alright, but why not use RAW if available and transparent in use?
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers.
Nov 03, 2020 at 12:10 PM
p.41 #10Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
uscmatt99 wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.I may share images on platforms in low-res, but I like to have a full-res copy of everything I want to keep. Not unusual to share a pic that someone wants for themselves, in which case I'll send a full-size edited JPEG. It's also nice to take photos with a wide dynamic range that allow for easy WB, shadow and highlight manipulation without falling apart. JPEG is alright, but why not use RAW if available and transparent in use?
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to...Show more →
.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants to do this, already does this. When I share in the field, I'm almost always sharing to WhatsApp groups or making a post/story on Instagram. Anyone who is a big user of IG can tell you that, even after you edit, you're probably still going have to rock a few sliders to get it close to what you want before you post. It doesn't matter in an IG story, clearly. I can do it quickly and, as a dedicated long exposure photographer, I can do it while my camera is in a 3 minute exposure/3 minute dark frame lockdown.
Given the medium, a JPEG has never really been much of a limiting factor. Indeed, for results I'll put my photography and JPEG editing up for judgement. Click on my Instagram and you'll see a mix of RAW edited on my computer at home and JPEGs edited in the field...can you pick which is which?
Anyways, none of the precludes me having a full-res copy...and the only thing that precludes me from editing a RAW is Sony's app. As I've been saying, camera companies would be better served spending resources on app development.
Dave Sanders wrote
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to...Show more →
.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants to do this, already does this. When I share in the field, I'm almost always sharing to WhatsApp groups or making a post/story on Instagram. Anyone who is a big user of IG can tell you that, even after you edit, you're probably still going have to rock a few sliders to get it close to what you want before you post. It doesn't matter in an IG story, clearly. I can do it quickly and, as a dedicated long exposure photographer, I can do it while my camera is in a 3 minute exposure/3 minute dark frame lockdown.
Given the medium, a JPEG has never really been much of a limiting factor. Indeed, for results I'll put my photography and JPEG editing up for judgement. Click on my Instagram and you'll see a mix of RAW edited on my computer at home and JPEGs edited in the field...can you pick which is which?
Anyways, none of the precludes me having a full-res copy...and the only thing that precludes me from editing a RAW is Sony's app. As I've been saying, camera companies would be better served spending resources on app development.
Nov 03, 2020 at 12:40 PM
p.41 #11Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Dave Sanders wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.I may share images on platforms in low-res, but I like to have a full-res copy of everything I want to keep. Not unusual to share a pic that someone wants for themselves, in which case I'll send a full-size edited JPEG. It's also nice to take photos with a wide dynamic range that allow for easy WB, shadow and highlight manipulation without falling apart. JPEG is alright, but why not use RAW if available and transparent in use?
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers..
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants...Show more →
Dave that's great and I'm glad you have a workflow that meets your needs, and is more powerful than what this camera can offer. You're definitely using your gear more than I do, so cheers to that. I'm just a hobbyist and for my purposes, I would love to have the option to completely bypass using a separate device for the "after the snap" stuff until I'm ready to sit down and process my images while reliving the experience of where I was when I took the pics. I guess part of it is that I pursue photography for pleasure on my off-time, and I think I'd enjoy the all-in-one nature of what this Zeiss camera offers, if indeed it's a smooth experience. Like I said, I'm part of the tiny niche market they are targeting with this offering. I can't imagine they will sell many of these.
uscmatt99 wrote
Dave Sanders wrote
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants...Show more →
Dave that's great and I'm glad you have a workflow that meets your needs, and is more powerful than what this camera can offer. You're definitely using your gear more than I do, so cheers to that. I'm just a hobbyist and for my purposes, I would love to have the option to completely bypass using a separate device for the "after the snap" stuff until I'm ready to sit down and process my images while reliving the experience of where I was when I took the pics. I guess part of it is that I pursue photography for pleasure on my off-time, and I think I'd enjoy the all-in-one nature of what this Zeiss camera offers, if indeed it's a smooth experience. Like I said, I'm part of the tiny niche market they are targeting with this offering. I can't imagine they will sell many of these.
Nov 03, 2020 at 01:10 PM
p.41 #12Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Dave Sanders wrote:
I think we're missing each other here, so perhaps I'm guilty of not explaining it very well.
As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put...Show more → Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.
Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as us..?
Kalainen wrote
Sure, I get your point here. Personally, I'm not against transfering the raw-files to another device. I could, for example, transfer them to to my PC where I have even more powerful computer with larger screen and everything. However, the thing is (I'm guessing here) that younger generation doesn't want to wait for separate editing, especially waiting for home just to see what the files would look like with some editing. Would they like to edit their pictures separately with phone. I don't know.As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put...Show more →
Kalainen wrote
I think Zeiss tries to solve *the problem* the whole camera industry has - and they are far more innovative than traditional manufacturers. - cameras vs phones - that's one of the biggest current conversation that one can find on every photography forum. Compared to phones the current cameras (with their 'floppy disks', '80s computer menus' and 'no connection') resemble something like the Nokia 3110 vs Pixels and iPhones.Kalainen wrote
Camera industry is in the bad shape, and while it will never die and there will always be need for a dedicated cameras, someone needs to come up with something else than 'more megapixels'. Someone needs to close the gap between cameras and phones, and I think ZEISS doing exactly that here.Kalainen wrote
And I honestly think this is currently the best attempt to do just that. I get that some don't like to look of it and others are irritated about the price, but I think Zeiss deserves a little recognition here - they are doing something else and fresh here. Just for the sake of comparisation, Sony just refreshed their menus on A7 cameras; nice but still kind of 80's looking compared to ZX1... Okay, that was a bit under the belt there Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.Earlier quote
]Kalainen wrote:Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as us..?
Nov 03, 2020 at 03:37 PM
p.41 #13Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Kalainen wrote:
I think we're missing each other here, so perhaps I'm guilty of not explaining it very well.
As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Again, this isn't a young persons perspective and doesn't really understand or take into account how people use Pixels and iPhones. The Zeiss doesn't make anything easier. Pixel and iPhone users want to, uh, use their Pixel and iPhone. They're connected to all their social media accounts; by definition, the photo has to make it there first if they want to use it.
How? What gap are they closing?
Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.I'll give them credit for their engineering. But is it so fresh? It's like a 50 something's view of what 'kids these days' want...a $6k camera with RAW editing? C'mon.
Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.Right, and here we totally agree: it is more about the experience. But Zeiss doesn't know what that experience is, IMO. The 'experience' young people seek is the immediate feedback and interaction of a Story that disappears in 24 hours. If they want a photographic experience, it's likely film, maybe a Fuji with film simulations. But mostly their phone.Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as...Show more →
A very good point. There is in fact, a gigantic global and prolific community of younger people that call themselves Content Creators--never photographers or videographers. We photographers don't know much about them because they don't participate in forums or use the same gear we do nor do they really care what gear they use as long as it records content and has immediate access to social media. This is the future in the present--old news already.
Other than gear blind, one of the other biggest differences is that we photographers never/hardly ever include ourselves in our work, whereas the younger generation include themselves in almost everything they create. We call it "selfies" or vlogging and while we photographers are discussing our mirrorless cameras and lenses--so many lenses, Content Creators quietly became the most prolific creators of digital Content the world has ever experienced. The smart phone and its deep integration with the social internet ecosystem has already taken over, just waiting for the "camera companies" to catch up and in my opinion, ZX1 is the first serious/adult step to bridge a very broad divide between these two worlds.
Dave Sanders wrote
Kalainen wrote
Sure, I get your point here. Personally, I'm not against transfering the raw-files to another device. I could, for example, transfer them to to my PC where I have even more powerful computer with larger screen and everything. However, the thing is (I'm guessing here) that younger generation doesn't want to wait for separate editing, especially waiting for home just to see what the files would look like with some editing. Would they like to edit their pictures separately with phone. I don't know.As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Kalainen wrote
I think Zeiss tries to solve *the problem* the whole camera industry has - and they are far more innovative than traditional manufacturers. - cameras vs phones - that's one of the biggest current conversation that one can find on every photography forum. Compared to phones the current cameras (with their 'floppy disks', '80s computer menus' and 'no connection') resemble something like the Nokia 3110 vs Pixels and iPhones.Kalainen wrote
Camera industry is in the bad shape, and while it will never die and there will always be need for a dedicated cameras, someone needs to come up with something else than 'more megapixels'. Someone needs to close the gap between cameras and phones, and I think ZEISS doing exactly that here.Kalainen wrote
And I honestly think this is currently the best attempt to do just that. I get that some don't like to look of it and others are irritated about the price, but I think Zeiss deserves a little recognition here - they are doing something else and fresh here. Just for the sake of comparisation, Sony just refreshed their menus on A7 cameras; nice but still kind of 80's looking compared to ZX1... Okay, that was a bit under the belt there Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
Earlier quote
]Kalainen wrote:Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
A very good point. There is in fact, a gigantic global and prolific community of younger people that call themselves Content Creators--never photographers or videographers. We photographers don't know much about them because they don't participate in forums or use the same gear we do nor do they really care what gear they use as long as it records content and has immediate access to social media. This is the future in the present--old news already.
Other than gear blind, one of the other biggest differences is that we photographers never/hardly ever include ourselves in our work, whereas the younger generation include themselves in almost everything they create. We call it "selfies" or vlogging and while we photographers are discussing our mirrorless cameras and lenses--so many lenses, Content Creators quietly became the most prolific creators of digital Content the world has ever experienced. The smart phone and its deep integration with the social internet ecosystem has already taken over, just waiting for the "camera companies" to catch up and in my opinion, ZX1 is the first serious/adult step to bridge a very broad divide between these two worlds.
Nov 03, 2020 at 04:21 PM
p.41 #14Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Dave Sanders wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Why are you editing RAW to share on a platforms that only allow 1-2mp photos? Just use the JPEG. I do exactly what you described with my Sony. It takes about 30 seconds longer than my wife with her iPhone.I may share images on platforms in low-res, but I like to have a full-res copy of everything I want to keep. Not unusual to share a pic that someone wants for themselves, in which case I'll send a full-size edited JPEG. It's also nice to take photos with a wide dynamic range that allow for easy WB, shadow and highlight manipulation without falling apart. JPEG is alright, but why not use RAW if available and transparent in use?
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers..
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants...Show more →
The new iPhone 12, with 3 camera lenses, absolutely slaughters this camera from Zeiss. Any images that have to be processed on a 4 inch screen will be perfectly fine with iPhone 12 IQ. I've never seen a more dead on arrival camera than the ZX1. I doubt they sell their whole production run, if it even gets produced. The lack of pre-orders will probably kill this camera.
I have close to $10,000 worth of various cameras, so I'm not at all opposed to spending big money on a good piece of gear. But this ZX1 is simply a laughing stock of a camera. A digital Zeiss Ikon is what they should have made. THAT would have had a stampede of buyers, and at a high price. Instead, the turd that Zeiss made will die a quick, ignominious death.
uscmatt99 wrote
Dave Sanders wrote
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
I'm not sure if you use LRCC, but I do all the time as a mobile intermediary when I'm not going to have access to LR Classic on my desktop. On an iPhone or iPad Pro, it's remarkably smooth and very fast. It's easy to knock out 5-10 pics really quick with a few clicks to get them almost there. I'm sure it will be similar on the back of the Zeiss camera, albeit with a smaller screen. The difference is that it's a presumably elegant solution, not kludgy, and that's worth a different amount to different consumers.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it is really making a case for this camera. I think it is in fact making my case: Allow me to use the same process I use for JPEG to get the RAW onto my phone. It's a more powerful device for everything the camera is trying to do...apart from being a camera.
I shoot, edit and share on the run, in the field, every week, often multiple times a week. Yes, with LRCC or Snapseed, and that's my point...anyone, like me, who needs to do this and wants...Show more →
The new iPhone 12, with 3 camera lenses, absolutely slaughters this camera from Zeiss. Any images that have to be processed on a 4 inch screen will be perfectly fine with iPhone 12 IQ. I've never seen a more dead on arrival camera than the ZX1. I doubt they sell their whole production run, if it even gets produced. The lack of pre-orders will probably kill this camera.
I have close to $10,000 worth of various cameras, so I'm not at all opposed to spending big money on a good piece of gear. But this ZX1 is simply a laughing stock of a camera. A digital Zeiss Ikon is what they should have made. THAT would have had a stampede of buyers, and at a high price. Instead, the turd that Zeiss made will die a quick, ignominious death.
Nov 03, 2020 at 05:37 PM
p.41 #15Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
LBJ2 wrote:
I think we're missing each other here, so perhaps I'm guilty of not explaining it very well.
As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Again, this isn't a young persons perspective and doesn't really understand or take into account how people use Pixels and iPhones. The Zeiss doesn't make anything easier. Pixel and iPhone users want to, uh, use their Pixel and iPhone. They're connected to all their social media accounts; by definition, the photo has to make it there first if they want to use it.
How? What gap are they closing?
Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.I'll give them credit for their engineering. But is it so fresh? It's like a 50 something's view of what 'kids these days' want...a $6k camera with RAW editing? C'mon.
Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.Right, and here we totally agree: it is more about the experience. But Zeiss doesn't know what that experience is, IMO. The 'experience' young people seek is the immediate feedback and interaction of a Story that disappears in 24 hours. If they want a photographic experience, it's likely film, maybe a Fuji with film simulations. But mostly their phone.Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as us..?The smart phone and its deep integration with the social internet ecosystem has already taken over, just waiting for the "camera companies" to catch up and in my opinion, ZX1 is the first serious/adult step to bridge a very broad divide between these two worlds.
Not even a little bit.
Kalainen wrote
Dave Sanders wrote
Kalainen wrote
Sure, I get your point here. Personally, I'm not against transfering the raw-files to another device. I could, for example, transfer them to to my PC where I have even more powerful computer with larger screen and everything. However, the thing is (I'm guessing here) that younger generation doesn't want to wait for separate editing, especially waiting for home just to see what the files would look like with some editing. Would they like to edit their pictures separately with phone. I don't know.As an ESL teacher for 18 years I was lucky enough to be exposed to thousands upon thousands of bright and engaged people between the ages of 17 and 25 and I even got to teach them photography. The 'young generation' doesn't want to edit RAWs on a camera, let alone a $6000 one. Heck, they don't want to edit at all. The want to shoot, open Instagram, play with a few sliders, maybe apply a filter and go. If you've put connectivity in a camera and you've done so to edit RAW photos and send them to your library on your computer (?!?) rather than apply filters and upload to Instagram, I'm gonna guess your engineering team was 10-20 years too old.
Kalainen wrote
I think Zeiss tries to solve *the problem* the whole camera industry has - and they are far more innovative than traditional manufacturers. - cameras vs phones - that's one of the biggest current conversation that one can find on every photography forum. Compared to phones the current cameras (with their 'floppy disks', '80s computer menus' and 'no connection') resemble something like the Nokia 3110 vs Pixels and iPhones.Kalainen wrote
Camera industry is in the bad shape, and while it will never die and there will always be need for a dedicated cameras, someone needs to come up with something else than 'more megapixels'. Someone needs to close the gap between cameras and phones, and I think ZEISS doing exactly that here.Kalainen wrote
And I honestly think this is currently the best attempt to do just that. I get that some don't like to look of it and others are irritated about the price, but I think Zeiss deserves a little recognition here - they are doing something else and fresh here. Just for the sake of comparisation, Sony just refreshed their menus on A7 cameras; nice but still kind of 80's looking compared to ZX1... Okay, that was a bit under the belt there Sony has definitely innovated a lot, one has to give them credit for that.Actually, I'm being overly harsh, their touch screen menu and interaction looks really nice, far better than Sony. There, you are on point, it is miles ahead of the other companies.
Earlier quote
]Kalainen wrote:Looking slick and being connected is important. I belive that for younger generation photography is more about the experience than the tech oriented starting points which many of us share here. So not about the technical performance or image quality (though the ZX1 delivers here), but more about the experience and the process of photography - and that's exactly where Zeiss is trying the aim here. The flow. It would be refreshing to here from someone how the ZX1 is succeeding here.
Not even a little bit.
Nov 03, 2020 at 05:38 PM
p.41 #16Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
Kalainen wrote:
Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as...Show more →
In their journey to becoming serious photographers they will follow -and have followed - the same path as us. They've just had different tools to get there. My point was more to the fact that the kind of person who has an interest in sharing something immediately values exactly that, the immediacy and connection of the medium. Instagram stories with their 24 hour life are by far the most popular way that people interact with photography socially. IIRC, the number is 500 million or so a day. The ZX1, who people have been arguing is for that person, is quite decidedly not for that person. It's for an older, well-monied user.
While the ZX1 is slicker than I had thought, it is still is a solution looking for a problem. I'm saying that, if you know and spend time with the mythical 'younger iPhone generation', you know well that the ZX1 doesn't do anything to skip a step. The photo still has to get to their phone. I mean, even before remembering the fact that an incredibly small segment of society can afford one.
From my experience, young people are incredibly savvy users of technology. Unsurprising, I think. The kids I taught had a pretty intuitive understand of what was what in terms of what they used to achieve their goal.
People who need to edit RAW will still do so, but let's not pretend that Zeiss has put that feature in the ZX1 so that young folks can post a Snap.
Dave, thanks for the interesting reply. The discussion has already move ahead to other aspects, but I just wanted to say I found your experiences about young generation and photography particulary interesting - and I trust you it better than I do. It's a kind of 'disposal' aspect to photography - from my limited point of view - and it makes me wonder where the young people that enter into 'photography as an art form and culture' and eventually become photographers of the future, come from? What kind of path they have and do they follow the same steps as...Show more →
In their journey to becoming serious photographers they will follow -and have followed - the same path as us. They've just had different tools to get there. My point was more to the fact that the kind of person who has an interest in sharing something immediately values exactly that, the immediacy and connection of the medium. Instagram stories with their 24 hour life are by far the most popular way that people interact with photography socially. IIRC, the number is 500 million or so a day. The ZX1, who people have been arguing is for that person, is quite decidedly not for that person. It's for an older, well-monied user.
While the ZX1 is slicker than I had thought, it is still is a solution looking for a problem. I'm saying that, if you know and spend time with the mythical 'younger iPhone generation', you know well that the ZX1 doesn't do anything to skip a step. The photo still has to get to their phone. I mean, even before remembering the fact that an incredibly small segment of society can afford one.
From my experience, young people are incredibly savvy users of technology. Unsurprising, I think. The kids I taught had a pretty intuitive understand of what was what in terms of what they used to achieve their goal.
People who need to edit RAW will still do so, but let's not pretend that Zeiss has put that feature in the ZX1 so that young folks can post a Snap.
Nov 04, 2020 at 10:11 AM
p.41 #17Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
LBJ2 wrote:
A very good point. There is in fact, a gigantic global and prolific community of younger people that call themselves Content Creators--never photographers or videographers. We photographers don't know much about them because they don't participate in forums or use the same gear we do nor do they really care what gear they use as long as it records content and has immediate access to social media. This is the future in the present--old news already.
Other than gear blind, one of the other biggest differences is that we photographers never/hardly ever include ourselves in our work, whereas the younger generation...Show more →
I would disagree on one point: I know a number of content creators and they're pretty involved in the gear they use. And they have lots of it and they're power users. The Zeiss ZX1 is likely the last camera they'd ever consider. As I said, there doesn't need to be a bridge. Their content requires tons of work or none at all ie. they'll use their phone or its going from a camera to on to one of their many devices for editing. The don't need a bridge. They already have a pretty tight workflow.
There is no divide between these two worlds.
A very good point. There is in fact, a gigantic global and prolific community of younger people that call themselves Content Creators--never photographers or videographers. We photographers don't know much about them because they don't participate in forums or use the same gear we do nor do they really care what gear they use as long as it records content and has immediate access to social media. This is the future in the present--old news already.
Other than gear blind, one of the other biggest differences is that we photographers never/hardly ever include ourselves in our work, whereas the younger generation...Show more →
I would disagree on one point: I know a number of content creators and they're pretty involved in the gear they use. And they have lots of it and they're power users. The Zeiss ZX1 is likely the last camera they'd ever consider. As I said, there doesn't need to be a bridge. Their content requires tons of work or none at all ie. they'll use their phone or its going from a camera to on to one of their many devices for editing. The don't need a bridge. They already have a pretty tight workflow.
There is no divide between these two worlds.
Nov 04, 2020 at 10:16 AM
p.41 #18Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
uscmatt99 wrote:
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
Bingo. I had a similar experience hiking. Took a great shot, wanted to share it, knew it would be a while until I could edit it in Lightroom and share it from home, and it was just much easier and quicker to take a similar shot with my phone for sharing on the spot instead of the superior shot with my camera. I hope the basics of what Zeiss has done (ease of touchup editing and sharing) eventually gets integrated into all cameras.
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately...Show more →
Bingo. I had a similar experience hiking. Took a great shot, wanted to share it, knew it would be a while until I could edit it in Lightroom and share it from home, and it was just much easier and quicker to take a similar shot with my phone for sharing on the spot instead of the superior shot with my camera. I hope the basics of what Zeiss has done (ease of touchup editing and sharing) eventually gets integrated into all cameras.
Nov 04, 2020 at 10:30 AM
p.41 #19Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
brafman wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Bingo. I had a similar experience hiking. Took a great shot, wanted to share it, knew it would be a while until I could edit it in Lightroom and share it from home, and it was just much easier and quicker to take a similar shot with my phone for sharing on the spot instead of the superior shot with my camera. I hope the basics of what Zeiss has done (ease of touchup editing and sharing) eventually gets integrated into all cameras.
We have no idea if the fixed lens ZX1 at $6K or even less will sell to the expectations of Zeiss or not. I think we are all surprised the ZX1came to market at all, after two years of silence and of course not uncommon for first generation products to have some level of operational issues too. We shall see.
I do however believe the ZX1 in camera editing/connectivity concept might just be the beginning of a new process/workflow/distribution we could see implemented in other cameras at some point too. And this is what interests me, ZX1 or otherwise. IMO not difficult to see how the process could be useful for more that a few scenarios. E.g., what many are trying to do currently with the almost-there camera apps.
FWIW, I also use LR on iPhone and iPad often. It's a very capable app that does more than just basic edits.*Pinch in zoom for close scrutiny for those that worry about screen size. From the looks of it, I assume this is the same LR app on the ZX1, but I don't know that for sure.
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
We have no idea if the fixed lens ZX1 at $6K or even less will sell to the expectations of Zeiss or not. I think we are all surprised the ZX1came to market at all, after two years of silence and of course not uncommon for first generation products to have some level of operational issues too. We shall see.
I do however believe the ZX1 in camera editing/connectivity concept might just be the beginning of a new process/workflow/distribution we could see implemented in other cameras at some point too. And this is what interests me, ZX1 or otherwise. IMO not difficult to see how the process could be useful for more that a few scenarios. E.g., what many are trying to do currently with the almost-there camera apps.
FWIW, I also use LR on iPhone and iPad often. It's a very capable app that does more than just basic edits.*Pinch in zoom for close scrutiny for those that worry about screen size. From the looks of it, I assume this is the same LR app on the ZX1, but I don't know that for sure.
Nov 04, 2020 at 10:48 AM
p.41 #20Are you getting the Zeiss ZX1?
brafman wrote:
I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.Bingo. I had a similar experience hiking. Took a great shot, wanted to share it, knew it would be a while until I could edit it in Lightroom and share it from home, and it was just much easier and quicker to take a similar shot with my phone for sharing on the spot instead of the superior shot with my camera. I hope the basics of what Zeiss has done (ease of touchup editing and sharing) eventually gets integrated into all cameras.
Touch your phone to your camera and you can do just that, edit from LR.
EDIT: My camera happens to be beside from my desk so I just did that and the process took 18s. It is faster on my old Pixel than my new Samsung, typically about 10s.
Edited on Nov 04, 2020 at 11:04 AM · View previous versions
uscmatt99 wrote
I have to say I'm still drawn to this camera. Not enough to drop $6k on it, but maybe enough to drop $4k. It does a lot of things right for someone who wants an excellent lens, excellent sensor, and the ability to rapidly share photos or videos while maintaining the ability to more thoroughly process the images at a later date.I think I'm in the niche target group. For example, my kids are dressed up for Halloween. My wife snaps some pics on the iPhone, while I bust out the M10 and get some proper photos. She immediately posts her pics and the rest of the family all over the country replies with their thumbs-up and hearts. Then I process the pics later that day, week, month, or year and send them to friends and family in a text message, and they comment on how great the photos are, you should print them, frame them, etc. But how much sweeter would it have been to have these available to share right away?
It's not only about the photographer necessarily, but about the impatience of the audience. I've tried with Nikon, Sony, and Leica the whole process of taking the photo, activating the wireless connection with my phone, uploading the RAW to LRCC, editing, and publishing photos. It's a pain in the rear. Zeiss presents an elegant solution to my problem, and they can charge what they want as nobody else has succeeded in this effort and they are the only game in town for a customer that wants excellent optics, a great sensor, a full-fledged camera, and processing and connectivity in one package.
Touch your phone to your camera and you can do just that, edit from LR.
EDIT: My camera happens to be beside from my desk so I just did that and the process took 18s. It is faster on my old Pixel than my new Samsung, typically about 10s.
Edited on Nov 04, 2020 at 11:04 AM · View previous versions
Nov 04, 2020 at 10:57 AM