ggreene wrote:
Given how far behind they appear to be in ML tech it's hard to see them making a 1DML in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but if ever there was an event to make a splashy release that would be it however.
I disagree. First of all, I believe the first EOS-R was never intended for us gear heads. It's clear they intended it to be a mid grade ML system for the general masses, not advanced or pro gearheads like us that hang around on photography forums every day like we do.
It seems the naysayers keep wanting to compare this "general" purpose body to more advanced systems out there, which is simply an exercise in futility.
Making statements such as "how far behind they appear to be in ML tech" has no foundation whatsoever of Canon's capabilities, other than just yet another jab that so many here on the Canon forum seem to enjoy doing.
I'm pretty sure Canon knows how to run their business much better than anyone here on this forum does. Sure we all have our wants and/or needs, but we are on the other side of the fence as consumers vs sound business model decisions. Yep, it "can" suck for us but always good for them.
Personally I'm very eager to see what the next two ML bodies are that are rumored to be released in a few months.
The word "flagship" has been tossed around but IMHO there is no way in hell Canon is going to release their flagship mirrorless until the Olympics.
And lastly, I am almost certain that Canon will be blowing the socks off most of us gearheads at the Olympics when they debut the 1RX-ML, or whatever they are going to name the Kraken.
As I've said before. We are living in exciting times regardless of who's systems we enjoy using. In the end, we ALL win with better gear at our disposal.
I'm very eager as well as the initial R was disappointing. They had all those years to get their ML tech in order and they still look like they are behind the competition.
I hope you are right about a 1D ML body ahead of the 2020 Olympics. As a long time 1D user I'm not going to sign up for another 1DX->1DX2 type of minor update.
lighthound wrote:
I disagree. First of all, I believe the first EOS-R was never intended for us gear heads. It's clear they intended it to be a mid grade ML system for the general masses, not advanced or pro gearheads like us that hang around on photography forums every day like we do.
It seems the naysayers keep wanting to compare this "general" purpose body to more advanced systems out there, which is simply an exercise in futility.
Making statements such as "how far behind they appear to be in ML tech" has no foundation whatsoever of Canon's capabilities, other than just yet another jab that so many here on the Canon forum seem to enjoy doing.
I'm pretty sure Canon knows how to run their business much better than anyone here on this forum does. Sure we all have our wants and/or needs, but we are on the other side of the fence as consumers vs sound business model decisions. Yep, it "can" suck for us but always good for them.
Personally I'm very eager to see what the next two ML bodies are that are rumored to be released in a few months.
The word "flagship" has been tossed around but IMHO there is no way in hell Canon is going to release their flagship mirrorless until the Olympics.
And lastly, I am almost certain that Canon will be blowing the socks off most of us gearheads at the Olympics when they debut the 1RX-ML, or whatever they are going to name the Kraken.
As I've said before. We are living in exciting times regardless of who's systems we enjoy using. In the end, we ALL win with better gear at our disposal....Show more →
I think you are spot-on!
I'm pretty sure those last two super-tele lenses we saw this year are the swan song of the EF line-up. From here on out, it will be all mirrorless, except for mid-grade DSLR bodies for a few years, until the EF line-up reaches its end-of-life product support (my 1D3 and 1Ds3 have hit that -- no more service or repair from Canon).
I'm pretty sure Canon will more suavely follow the replacement transition of the old FD to EF mount, with a minutely more accommodating transition. The fact we can rely on three EF adapters really shows what it up with their roadmap.
I say: bring it on, Canon!
Why should they spend all the needless time and money to maintain an outdated mechanical system? Reliability and features will be greatly enhanced, and cost will go down for manufacture -- undoubtedly increasing their bottom line. We have all noticed the shrinking non-phone imaging market, right?
PetKal wrote:
I'd sooner switch to Leica than fall for that R hype/fad.
About time you joined the Leicaphilias.
You know they have a 50mm F0.95.
Alas you shoot a lot of BIF and Leica doesn't have any modern Big BIF lenses and of course it is all manual focus but I think you will be fine.
Seriously a lot of hype with ML it seems a high percentage of postings are onboard with the end of dslr's.
Funny thing CDs were to replace vinyl records, yet vinyl had a bit of a renissanse amoung younger folks. Maybe Dslrs will too.
I myself look forward to a Canon ML that meets my needs especially for the manual adapted lenses.
In the end we can all say what we want regarding ML if it is the future or not the future. The market and the manufacturers will be the ones to decide the future of dslrs and ML. The manufacturers can build whatever cameras they they want and the market (which is a lot bigger than us avid photographers posting on photography sites) will decide to buy in or not.
Sauseschritt wrote:
I sort of doubt it. I think Canon will discontinue DSLRs if and only if they no longer sell. Not sooner. From what I hear, so far EOS R doesnt sell much at all, so Canon probably wont leave their DSLRs behind too quickly.
Personally I definitely wont get another full frame system. If DSLRs no longer would work, I'd go Fujifilm G. By that point, I expect Fujifilm G to be responsive and fast enough for my needs.
So do you think that the 5D5 will be out in a couple of years as a DSLR incompatible with current RF lenses and any other RF lenses that come out between now and then?
Just got the EOS-R + 24-105 today. Wow - this camera and lens has a real volumetric quality. I mean it really feels pro class in my hands. Very nice ergonomics and the feel of the materials are very pleasing in my hands and look pleasing. I like it! I was expecting less to be honest. I have big hands and long fingers and so far I don't feel the need for a battery grip. Also trying the EOS-to-R adopter with the 16-35 EOS lens and no issues. I also have the Nikon Z7 and it is also very nice but I can't say I like the body/lens combo as much as the Canon in terms of ergonomics but it is very nice. One thing to note is I updated Lightroom from 6.14 (perpetual license hold-out that I am) to the latest Lightroom classic CC 7.5 and Camera Raw 10.5 and no dice on the EOS-R raw CR3 images. The Nikon Z7 raw files import just fine. But Adobe DNG Converter 11.0 supports both the Z7 and the EOS-R. So I have to convert to DNG and import in two steps with Canon for now. Otherwise the menus are natural for a Canon user. The Electronic View Finder will take some getting used to. But I'm looking forward to trying it with manual focus lenses. I haven't read up to see if my Leica or Zeiss glass will work on this adapter but I'll give it a try.
Well, my new EOS R kit with the RF 24-105 f/4 lens arrived yesterday. The look and feel seemed pretty good to me, and I was looking forward to a lot of exploring of features and trying things out. All was well until I put a charged battery in, and found that the thing would not power on. Tried all the usual stuff, cycling the switch, cycling the battery door and the card slot door, and tried another charged battery, all with no joy. Decided to send the body to Canon rather than sending the whole kit back to B&H. Hope to be back in business in about a week. I guess I will be a test case to see if the repair people paid attention at their training classes for this new body.
I have never had any out of the box problems with any of the many Canon bodies or lenses I have bought new until now, and am willing to give them a pass on this, assuming the repaired body does not have a repeat of the issue. I am really looking forward to some nice RF lenses to complement my big collection of EF lenses, and do for sure look forward to a higher end R body, hopefully fairly soon.
Roland W wrote:
Well, my new EOS R kit with the RF 24-105 f/4 lens arrived yesterday. The look and feel seemed pretty good to me, and I was looking forward to a lot of exploring of features and trying things out. All was well until I put a charged battery in, and found that the thing would not power on. Tried all the usual stuff, cycling the switch, cycling the battery door and the card slot door, and tried another charged battery, all with no joy. Decided to send the body to Canon rather than sending the whole kit back to B&H. Hope to be back in business in about a week. I guess I will be a test case to see if the repair people paid attention at their training classes for this new body.
I have never had any out of the box problems with any of the many Canon bodies or lenses I have bought new until now, and am willing to give them a pass on this, assuming the repaired body does not have a repeat of the issue. I am really looking forward to some nice RF lenses to complement my big collection of EF lenses, and do for sure look forward to a higher end R body, hopefully fairly soon. ...Show more →
Why would you do that? You will end up with a body with a repair history when you could just as easily have a new copy from B&H that has never been tinkered with by "who knows what skill level" tech. The R is just sitting on shelves so you wouldn't have to wait for another copy.
burningheart wrote:
Funny thing CDs were to replace vinyl records, yet vinyl had a bit of a renissanse amoung younger folks. Maybe Dslrs will too.
CDs did replace records. The “renaissance” is a minuscule amount compared to records and CDs in their heyday. BTW, I bought my first record in 1956 (Elvis) and my latest record last week. I’m well over 10,000 now.
If mirror box cameras are no longer produced and in the future younger folks seek them out, it will be like records- not for technical superiority but for nostalgia. If nostalgia is what they are after, both Olympus and Fuji make nice retro looking ML cameras.
I got rid of all my vinyl a few years ago, along with my extremely original 1970's Linn turntable. And my CDs sit in a box somewhere, having been converted to digital files on a HDD some years ago also. Gotta move with the times...
I don't think mirrorbox cameras are going anywhere soon - unless Canon and Nikon can start shrinking their lenses down to Leica M size, the overall weight improvements of ML seem pretty marginal to me. Which means they need to offer significant performance advantages in the ML over the SLRs for folk to switch.
When I worked at circuit city years ago, we’d sell about 6 Sony record players a month. I never understood why. It must have been nostalgia. Even now, the NES and SNES classics(a remake ofgaming systems from Nintendo in the 80-90’s) are hard to find especially with Christmas on its way. I don’t think cameras will be that way though. I have no desire to go back and use my Canon D60 or 1D.
As for a defective item, I’d return it back to where I bought it, especially if they have them in stock. If it was a “hot” item and stock wasn’t available, then I’d send it to the manufacturer.
M. Best wrote:
Even now, the NES and SNES classics(a remake ofgaming systems from Nintendo in the 80-90’s) are hard to find especially with Christmas on its way.
They aren't hard to find this year. There was a shortage of them last year due to low production runs by Nintendo and speculators who bought up most of the stock, marked them up 100-200%, and sold them on eBay. But Nintendo actually ramped up production again, and they seem to be readily available in brick-and-mortar stores around here.
To be honest, there's a EOS-R on my desk at the moment. Why? Because i'm not the only one taking photo's in this house and i have to admit after using one at the Photokina, it did not dissapoint me as it did on paper. So my other half decided to trade in her APS-C DSLR for the R. She likes to photograph people more than i do and we found that face tracking worked much better than on all canon's predecessors. We also tried the new A7III which was also a good performer but the ergonomics and menu layout was so much more familiar on the R. Plus the fact that adapted glass on Sony MILC is still a bit crippled compared to adapted EF to RF mount.
Also, i have tried the Sigma 35 Art today with a much better hit rate than ever before on a DSLR so that is a bonus as well. I will try out the R with my 600 II soon and see where that goes.
dmacmillan wrote:
CDs did replace records. The “renaissance” is a minuscule amount compared to records and CDs in their heyday. BTW, I bought my first record in 1956 (Elvis) and my latest record last week. I’m well over 10,000 now.
If mirror box cameras are no longer produced and in the future younger folks seek them out, it will be like records- not for technical superiority but for nostalgia. If nostalgia is what they are after, both Olympus and Fuji make nice retro looking ML cameras.
Partially agree but I have spent a lot of time these last few years taking courses and hanging with the younger generation who are studying music and audio production, animation, photography and video. Most trying to establish their career in a given industry.
A few in music and audio production indicated they only buy records, no CDs, no downloads, analog only. To them it is more than just nostalgia it is the sound that analog has vs digital. They tell me they don't like the sterile sound from digital recordings.
I agree with you on the hey days of records and CDs most folk (young and old) just download music these days.
As far as ML goes most of the students I interact with are buying and using entry level Dslr's very few buy ML. In my last two courses just 3 out of 20 students had a ML or were interested in buying one. Though it is a small sample I can't disregard it.
Neither ML or Dslr are technically superior to the other as in the end they both record the image on a sensor.
Times are changing and ML is the direction things are going but OVF and EVF both have their strengths and weaknesses and saying it is nostalgia they are after I can't fully agree. Some young folks may prefer the OVF. Will the OVF and mirror box survive it appears unlikely. In the end the market and manufacturers will decide.
burningheart wrote:
As far as ML goes most of the students I interact with are buying and using entry level Dslr's very few buy ML. In my last two courses just 3 out of 20 students had a ML or were interested in buying one. Though it is a small sample I can't disregard it.
Neither ML or Dslr are technically superior to the other as in the end they both record the image on a sensor.
Times are changing and ML is the direction things are going but OVF and EVF both have their strengths and weaknesses and saying it is nostalgia they are after I can't fully agree. Some young folks may prefer the OVF. Will the OVF and mirror box survive it appears unlikely. In the end the market and manufacturers will decide. ...Show more →
I agree with your conclusion that it is unlikely that ultimately the mirror box and OVF systems will "survive," though I'd qualify that and say that they will survive but more as a niche than as a central product category. We're a long ways from that destination today, but it seems to me almost inevitable.
About students, there are quite a few reasons that they are getting entry level DSLRs at this point. One of them is that this market is quite mature at this point, and there are excellent (for their immediate needs) DSLR systems available at quite low price points — something that makes a big difference to students on student budgets!
A second factor, at least at some institutions and in some classes, is that the DSLR is a familiar thing to the faculty members who are making the recommendations. Despite some avant garde faculty, many tend to lag just a bit behind, preferring to use stuff that has a history of being ingrained as opposed to sending students out to get the new, upcoming thing. Related: we saw (and still see in some cases) college programs holding fast to film, especially at the beginning level, even though digital has become ubiquitous.
Blair Maynard wrote:
So do you think that the 5D5 will be out in a couple of years as a DSLR incompatible with current RF lenses and any other RF lenses that come out between now and then?
Not everywhere. Adorama is out of stock of the body with kit lens. I preordered from them early and got all of the items (kit, control ring adaptors grip) this week. So perhaps demand for the kit lens version is higher than body alone.
arbitrage wrote:
Why would you do that? You will end up with a body with a repair history when you could just as easily have a new copy from B&H that has never been tinkered with by "who knows what skill level" tech. The R is just sitting on shelves so you wouldn't have to wait for another copy.
