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Archive 2018 · Monochrome e-mount

  
 
freaklikeme
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p.4 #1 · Monochrome e-mount


rdeloe wrote:
The RAW files are no available at Daniel's site. Click here: https://www.monochromeimaging.com/technical/resolution/




Thanks! I'll check these out tomorrow.

I haven't put much stock in the claims of increased resolution. I figured there would be some small gains in converting an a7II, a7, or one of the APS-C cameras because you're also removing the AA filter, weak as it apparently is. Otherwise, it seems like resolution would be a constant dictated by the sensor.



Apr 07, 2018 at 04:35 PM
Scho
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p.4 #2 · Monochrome e-mount


rdeloe wrote:
This is really interesting... I downloaded the two sample files, converted the monochrome file to DNG using the Monochrome2DNG application. Then I brought the colour ARW and converted DNG into Lightroom 7.3 and converted the colour ARW to black and white using the Adobe Monochrome profile. I adjusted exposure and highlights for the two files to get them roughly the same. Then I compared...

My first thought was that the point of focus was in a different place in the ARW image because it looked fuzzy in comparison to the monochrome DNG. I checked Daniel's site and he says the lens
...Show more

Quite surprising. I didn't expect to see such a dramatic difference in resolution, but it is there. Here is a screen grab comparison at 1:1 in LR of the monochrome vs RGB files.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/898/41304434591_6048b27ab8_o.jpg



Apr 07, 2018 at 05:33 PM
Audii-Dudii
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p.4 #3 · Monochrome e-mount


Although I've never seriously considered a monochrome conversion for my A7R because I rely heavily on tweaking the color channels during my B&W conversions, the results I've experienced from playing with the posted RAW files this afternoon is giving me pause to rethink my position...

I converted both files to 16-bit .TIFs using RawTherapee then brought them into PS6. I tweaked the exposure slightly, but made no effort to achieve similar tonalities and applied no sharpening other than a small amount of deconvolution sharpening during the raw conversions.

The following are 100% crops from the color file:



and the mono file:



In particular, note the difference in the house numbers, the visible grain of the wood beams, the detail of the eye screw attached to the bottom of a beam, and especially the foliage in the foreground. I, too, initially thought there was a difference in focus between the two files, but after careful comparison, I now believe this is roughly similar.

Needless to say, I am impressed ... and favorably! I also believe that more time spent on setting up the initial conversion of the monochrome file will be even further rewarded.



Apr 07, 2018 at 05:40 PM
rdeloe
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p.4 #4 · Monochrome e-mount


I'm honestly shocked by the difference (and glad to see other people are seeing what I saw). THIS is why I always want to see proper controlled tests when people make claims about the special qualities of sensors, lenses, etc. "Show don't tell".

...but I still want to see some more. FYI, I asked Daniel if he can put up more, and he said he would. However, we'll have to be patient as he says he's busy with conversions.



Apr 07, 2018 at 06:25 PM
genji
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p.4 #5 · Monochrome e-mount


I have to confess I was skeptical but I've just done the comparison and got exactly the same results that both Scho and Audii-Dudii have shown. I'm strongly tempted to have an A7RII converted. Looking at the ordering page though, I'm confused by the various options because I have no interest in doing IR photography. If my goal is to end up with a higher resolution mirrorless version of a Leica Monochrom camera, which option should I choose? Also, am I correct in assuming that this monochrome conversion will NOT fix the smearing problem with M-mount lenses in the way that a Kolari UT conversion does?


Apr 07, 2018 at 10:19 PM
freaklikeme
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p.4 #6 · Monochrome e-mount


genji wrote:
I have to confess I was skeptical but I've just done the comparison and got exactly the same results that both Scho and Audii-Dudii have shown. I'm strongly tempted to have an A7RII converted. Looking at the ordering page though, I'm confused by the various options because I have no interest in doing IR photography. If my goal is to end up with a higher resolution mirrorless version of a Leica Monochrom camera, which option should I choose? Also, am I correct in assuming that this monochrome conversion will NOT fix the smearing problem with M-mount lenses in the way
...Show more

If all you do is have the CFA removed, then there will be no improvement with RF lenses. If you go full spectrum, the hot mirror is removed entirely, and should be better than the UT mod, but then you'd need an alternate solution to filter out IR and UV if you only want to focus visible light. Getting the CFA stripped and get a UT mod should get you to the same performance as an uncorrected original MM.



Apr 08, 2018 at 01:13 AM
Kenneth Lee
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p.4 #7 · Monochrome e-mount


Audii-Dudii wrote[/b:
Needless to say, I am impressed ... and favorably! I also believe that more time spent on setting up the initial conversion of the monochrome file will be even further rewarded.


According to the Exif data, the photos were taken at different shutter speeds: the monochrome image at 1/90 second and the color at 1/60 second.

Were these photos taken hand-held or on a tripod please ? Even on a tripod, if we're going to examine images at 100% we need to use the self-timer to trip the shutter.

There should be a way to quantify and describe the difference in resolution (or noise) between a regular and converted camera. For example, with a 24MP camera we begin to see a difference once the print size reaches X.




Apr 08, 2018 at 05:50 AM
rdeloe
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p.4 #8 · Monochrome e-mount


I would assume tripod but only Daniel can say for sure. I didn't see anything that looked like camera movement in the colour file (but yes, self-timer of course is needed.) Ditto the different shutter speed; I assumed that was due to slight change in light, or different sensitivity of the sensors.

To your point about printing Ken, I also studied the two images side-by-side at 1:2 instead of 1:1. 1:2 is a reasonable enlargement to simulate what I'll see in a 16"x24" print (which would be 250 ppi using that A7 file). At that enlargement, the differences between the two files are much less apparent. I haven't done an actual test print of both files at that size using my equipment (which is the only way to know for sure).

I've printed lots of files at 12"x18" from Sony A7 files that were converted to black and white in Lightroom. I was never previously disappointed with the image quality in print. An unmodified A7 has not all of a sudden become unsuited for printing high quality images!

Obviously more resolution and more detail are desirable. But I too use printing as a reality check. If I can't tell the difference between Option A an Option B in prints, then either will be acceptable. From my perspective, I have to remember how much I value being able to work with the colour channels, and how much I hated carrying around colour filters with black and white film.

Kenneth Lee wrote:
According to the Exif data, the photos were taken at different shutter speeds: the monochrome image at 1/90 second and the color at 1/60 second.

Were these photos taken hand-held or on a tripod please ? Even on a tripod, if we're going to examine images at 100% we need to use the self-timer to trip the shutter.

There should be a way to quantify and describe the difference in resolution (or noise) between a regular and converted camera. For example, with a 24MP camera we begin to see a difference once the print size reaches X.






Apr 08, 2018 at 08:00 AM
Audii-Dudii
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p.4 #9 · Monochrome e-mount


rdeloe wrote:
I would assume tripod but only Daniel can say for sure. I didn't see anything that looked like camera movement in the colour file (but yes, self-timer of course is needed.) Ditto the different shutter speed; I assumed that was due to slight change in light, or different sensitivity of the sensors.


Ditto. Given the reduction of light reaching the sensor proper caused by the CFA, I'm not sure it will ever be possible -- or even desirable! -- to synchronize the shutter speeds for both cameras. So long as the shutter speed is high enough to prevent motion blur, the same apertures and ISO settings are used, and the resulting exposures are visibly similar, then that's plenty good enough for me and my purposes.

Speaking of which, mine here is only to determine whether the converted camera is likely to produce better results for me overall than a non-converted camera. I'm not looking to perform rigorous scientific research or prepare a scholarly review comparing the converted and non-converted cameras, but merely determine if there is a consistent, visible difference between the files these two cameras create in favor of the converted camera.

If there is, then I will buy another A7R, have it converted, use it for my photography and determine, over time, whether it provides a better solution for me and the photography I do or not. If it does, great; if not, then that's unfortunate, but because the type of photography I do is fairly unique, evaluations done by others are usually not very useful to me, so the only way I'm ever able to determine whether a piece of gear will work well for me is to actually buy it and try it.

I certainly wish this wasn't so, because I am not a wealthy man -- far from it, in fact! -- but my experience over the past nine years has shown that I have no other option, because I've been fooled too many times in the past when I rely on the opinions of others for anything but initially screening likely candidates. <sigh>

From my perspective, I have to remember how much I value being able to work with the colour channels, and how much I hated carrying around colour filters with black and white film.

This is my primary concern as well, although my issue isn't so much carrying filters around, but not being able to, in effect, create a custom filter to optimize the B&W conversion for each and every photo. If capturing more detail also means living with less-than-optimal tonality, then I'll grudgingly choose tonality. But as I said, this isn't something I'll be able to determine solely by experimenting with a handful of photos taken by someone else of scenes that differ markedly from those that I photograph.

All I need at this point is to see enough promise to justify taking the next step and acquire a converted camera so I can evaluate it first-hand and at length. And based on what I've seen so far, I'm very, very close to doing just that....



Apr 08, 2018 at 11:14 AM
Beni
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p.4 #10 · Monochrome e-mount


Audii-Dudii wrote:
Although I've never seriously considered a monochrome conversion for my A7R because I rely heavily on tweaking the color channels during my B&W conversions, the results I've experienced from playing with the posted RAW files this afternoon is giving me pause to rethink my position...

I converted both files to 16-bit .TIFs using RawTherapee then brought them into PS6. I tweaked the exposure slightly, but made no effort to achieve similar tonalities and applied no sharpening other than a small amount of deconvolution sharpening during the raw conversions.

The following are 100% crops from the color file:

http://www.canyonero.com/files/1523140066.jpg

and the mono file:

http://www.canyonero.com/files/1523140046.jpg

In particular, note
...Show more

Am I the only one who sees a whole lot of stair stepping artefacts on diagonal edges in the monochrome image?



Apr 08, 2018 at 11:49 AM
rdeloe
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p.4 #11 · Monochrome e-mount


Is this what you mean? I can see some stair stepping on diagonals as in this image here. But that's 8:1 magnification! I wouldn't call that photographically relevant! It's at the individual pixel level in this example. I presume demosaicing normally smooths that out.

Are you seeing it somewhere else at photographically relevant magnification?

Beni wrote:
Am I the only one who sees a whole lot of stair stepping artefacts on diagonal edges in the monochrome image?








Stair stepping visible in the monochrome version... but only at extreme (8:1) magnification



Edited on Apr 08, 2018 at 01:21 PM · View previous versions



Apr 08, 2018 at 01:18 PM
rdeloe
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p.4 #12 · Monochrome e-mount


Been there, done that, solid it on eBay at a loss.... <sigh> indeed!

Audii-Dudii wrote:
...I've been fooled too many times in the past when I rely on the opinions of others for anything but initially screening likely candidates. <sigh>





Apr 08, 2018 at 01:21 PM
freaklikeme
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p.4 #13 · Monochrome e-mount


Yeah, I'd be more convinced if it looked like the color shots were as well focused and if he'd upped the ISO on the color shots to match exposure instead of slowing the shutter. I am sold on Monochrome2DNG now, though.

I am reconsidering my camera choice, mostly because I forgot there's no silent shutter on the a7II, and that's a feature I use regularly on the rII. So, now I'm thinking either a 6500 or another rII. I think I'll let the universe decide and see what good deals pop up on both.



Apr 08, 2018 at 01:44 PM
AdaptedLenses
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p.4 #14 · Monochrome e-mount


Personally I’d prefer a tripod and consistent ISO and aperture. Higher ISO leads to presumably less tonality. Depending on how much more ISO it may or may not be relevant.

I’ll get to play with these files tomorrow, but am on the fence about A) whether to do it or just do a full spectrum naked sensor and B) which camera to convert either way. Although I love the idea of a monochrome camera, a full spectrum one makes a good B&W conversion by desaturating and add some contrast, and can be a much more flexible camera, with a front end hot mirror for normal use, in particular it’s great for rangefinders.
As to cameras, I’m not sure I can live with the double shutter of the A7R. Might trade resolution for ergonomics of the A7II. At base ISO it’s close to the A7R’s anyway, I don’t think differences will be too relevant for real world shots. Any thoughts on conversion or body welcome!
freaklikeme wrote:
Yeah, I'd be more convinced if it looked like the color shots were as well focused and if he'd upped the ISO on the color shots to match exposure instead of slowing the shutter. I am sold on Monochrome2DNG now, though.

I am reconsidering my camera choice, mostly because I forgot there's no silent shutter on the a7II, and that's a feature I use regularly on the rII. So, now I'm thinking either a 6500 or another rII. I think I'll let the universe decide and see what good deals pop up on both.




Apr 08, 2018 at 05:24 PM
freaklikeme
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p.4 #15 · Monochrome e-mount


Mathieu18 wrote:
Personally I’d prefer a tripod and consistent ISO and aperture. Higher ISO leads to presumably less tonality. Depending on how much more ISO it may or may not be relevant.


Or a tripod + all the same settings to let us see the difference in sensitivity.

Mathieu18 wrote:
I’ll get to play with these files tomorrow, but am on the fence about A) whether to do it or just do a full spectrum naked sensor and B) which camera to convert either way. Although I love the idea of a monochrome camera, a full spectrum one makes a good B&W conversion by desaturating and add some contrast, and can be a much more flexible camera, with a front end hot mirror for normal use, in particular it’s great for rangefinders.
As to cameras, I’m not sure I can live with the double shutter of the A7R. Might trade
...Show more

I wouldn't do the mono conversion unless I were certain I wanted a mono camera. A full-spectrum can be undone if you decide it's not for you. I don't think putting the CFA back in is as simple, if it's even possible. It sounds to me like you want to remove limitations, not impose them.

I completely agree with you on the 7r. I know it has a dedicated group who justifiably love the output, but it's too fussy for me. I'd also avoid the s-line unless you have a strong desire to do FF 4K full-spectrum video, just because the prices are steep for a stills shooter. The 7's a great choice if you want the smallest, lightest FF camera and can deal with the funky ergonomics. The 7II's a great choice if you want more of an SLR feel and SteadyShot. With the rII you get less vignetting, much more resolution, and a silent shutter. I think the only way you can go wrong with those three is by picking one that doesn't do what you want it to do.

Personally, after stopping at a local camera shop to handle the 6500, I've decided to stick with what I love, and I love my rII more than any other camera I've used, particularly since I got the UT mod. I'm comfortable with the operation, the ergonomics, and no additional lenses will be necessary. It'll be expensive enough that I'll have to do it in stages to keep my financial advisor's scorn at bay, but I think that's better than spending less on something that's always going to feel like a compromise over using the rII. Plus, they're small enough that carrying both when I feel the need won't be too terrible a burden.



Apr 09, 2018 at 12:37 AM
AdaptedLenses
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p.4 #16 · Monochrome e-mount


Well you can infer differences in sensitivity from the shutter speeds. Looks like 1/2 stop for mono and 2 stops for IR.

Yea, an R2 might be ideal but I'd also end up with "buyers remorse" in the sense it would tie up too much of my camera fund. A7II continues to be tempting, but I do like the Mk 1 bodies for their compactness... sigh...





Normal A7







Mono w/ CC Filter







Mono Full Spectrum




Apr 09, 2018 at 08:22 AM
AdaptedLenses
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p.4 #17 · Monochrome e-mount


Okay, finally had a chance to dig into these more...

First impression, I thought we were basically seeing the gains of simply removing the AA filter as part of the CFA. Even when he puts cover glass back on these he just uses plain "fused silica". Little unsure about sensitivity still, he used matrix metering in one and spot in another. Depending where I'm zoomed into, seems 1/2 to 1/4 a stop, anyway I found I was playing with exposure to match histograms... plus different CC filters have different responses, so it's likely there's a slight difference between the stock Sony and what he was using. Anyway, was interesting but not mind blowing.

But... then I found this section of the image. Posted below at approx 2.5:1 image size to make it clearer and call me impressed. I still think sharpness is a large function of the removal of the AA filter, but I'm seeing better microcontrast and tonality. No matter how much I play with the color image in ACR, I'm not able to match the texture in the wood and get the separation I get from the mono image without any adjustments, color converted is just consistently flatter.

On the one hand it's subtle and you have to look for it. On the other hand, it strikes me as the type of thing that you don't "notice" but you definitely "see" in images.

Conversion: I'm in.





Color







Mono




Apr 09, 2018 at 08:46 AM
danski0224
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p.4 #18 · Monochrome e-mount


A Sigma camera can do full resolution monochrome or full spectrum or color right out of the box.

A sd Quattro has the best user interface, in my opinion.



Apr 09, 2018 at 01:42 PM
Andre Y
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p.4 #19 · Monochrome e-mount


As a long-time user of a Sigma DP3M, I agree that a Foveon camera can do comparable B&W, but you have to put up with everything else about that camera: low battery life, bad ISO performance above 200, no lens adaptability, slow operation, and probably something else I'm forgetting. The newer cameras have moved the bar forwards in some of these areas, but not by much.

My hope in trying this out with the 5N is to get Foveon-like B&W with fewer operational downsides.



Apr 09, 2018 at 02:15 PM
Audii-Dudii
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p.4 #20 · Monochrome e-mount


Andre Y wrote:
As a long-time user of a Sigma DP3M, I agree that a Foveon camera can do comparable B&W, but you have to put up with everything else about that camera: low battery life, bad ISO performance above 200, no lens adaptability, slow operation, and probably something else I'm forgetting.


The ability to do exposures that are longer than a second or two without excessive noise, perhaps?

If a Foveon-equipped camera could do a clean, 15- to 30-second exposure, I would own several of them. But they can't, so I don't own any of them.



Apr 09, 2018 at 02:33 PM
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