p.31 #1 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Matt Grum wrote:
If you're shooting compressed RAW then the first stage of compression drops to 11-bit so it makes no difference if the ADC is 12-bit or 14-bit.
The 11-bit is companded with a tone curve. In the shadows where it matters it is equivalent to 13-bit linear data. So even in compressed RAW there is a difference between 12-bit and 14-bit ADC readout as far as shadow noise goes.
p.31 #2 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
philip_pj wrote:
Page 29 graph.
Every picture tells a story, don't it. What is that green line doing sitting atop all the others - why, it's got the others beaten black and blue. The new king is dead, long live the old (low ISO) king!
On the photonstophotons site listing, the only cameras with higher max PDR than the a7r all have something in common. They are: Phase One IQ3, Phase One IQ 250, Pentax 645z, Fuji GFX 50S, 2 x 'Blad 50c.
Nikons are about the same - a little less than the a7r. Note the D850 is close to the a7r, but you have to find an extra stop of light to get there. The a7r also has *well over a stop* of PDR on the a9. Early generation Sony sensors dominate the top tier of the low ISO PDR listing.
Their notes regarding the 'p' for provisional:
"Data marked with a (p) are preliminary using actual measurements from raw files but not those taken under the usual controlled conditions. Historically preliminary data has been quite accurate.
For more cameras (derived from DxOMark data) see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart. However, data on this chart, when available, is considered to be more accurate." We'll see....Show more →
+1, I really love the oldie A7R shadows noise. It is so clean.
p.31 #3 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
I'm curious if they've figured out a way to make the A7r3 perform better in the studio. The A7rii still isn't optimal for me in stopped down focusing. If they've finally figured out how to make it focus in a studio stopped down to f5.6-8 like a dslr, I might pick one up
p.31 #4 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
sungphoto wrote:
I'm curious if they've figured out a way to make the A7r3 perform better in the studio. The A7rii still isn't optimal for me in stopped down focusing. If they've finally figured out how to make it focus in a studio stopped down to f5.6-8 like a dslr, I might pick one up
Sony've already fixed it last firmware by reducing the stops down to correct the focus shifting & low light issues for some lenses. Also, A7Riii now can AF 1 stops better than A7Rii in low light.
p.31 #6 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Philip, not it does matter, but that graph is at pixel level, you have to compare them at output with same resolution. The king was D810，now is D850 after down size to 36M. D850’s DR exceed both Pentax 645z and Fuji GFX only inforior to IQ3100 at the same output resolution.
Really, it doesn’t matter any more once this passing to certain level, at least to me.
Since we are talking about fact, I couldn’t help.
philip_pj wrote:
Page 29 graph.
Every picture tells a story, don't it. What is that green line doing sitting atop all the others - why, it's got the others beaten black and blue. The new king is dead, long live the old (low ISO) king!
On the photonstophotons site listing, the only cameras with higher max PDR than the a7r all have something in common. They are: Phase One IQ3, Phase One IQ 250, Pentax 645z, Fuji GFX 50S, 2 x 'Blad 50c.
Nikons are about the same - a little less than the a7r. Note the D850 is close to the a7r, but you have to find an extra stop of light to get there. The a7r also has *well over a stop* of PDR on the a9. Early generation Sony sensors dominate the top tier of the low ISO PDR listing.
Their notes regarding the 'p' for provisional:
"Data marked with a (p) are preliminary using actual measurements from raw files but not those taken under the usual controlled conditions. Historically preliminary data has been quite accurate.
For more cameras (derived from DxOMark data) see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart. However, data on this chart, when available, is considered to be more accurate." We'll see....Show more →
p.31 #7 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Fred Miranda wrote:
Sure, the new A7RIII gets close to the A9 functionality. It's basically better in everything. That's reason enough for me to get one as well.
However, after all these years, I was hoping that the A7RII successor would have a newer sensor tech with higher resolution, broader DR and lower base ISO (like 50). Basically something that would 'shake up' the market again...
I really feel Sony has something up their sleeves in terms of sensor tech. Otherwise perhaps we are hitting a plateau.
I do feel we are reaching a plateau of FF sensor technology for another couple years. The market is not expanding and shrinking in some respects so Sony and others will now capitalize on present technology and production equipment. Truth is we don't need more MP's and the DR has probably max'd out depending on how your define it. We always want more and better DR but I think we have hit a anchor for awhile. I am sure this is why Nikon opted for the D5 low light, sports performance and the D850 for weddings/functions and high end portraits. I see the same parallel with the A9 and A7rIII. No single sensor and processor can do everything... yet at least not for a prohibitively high price.
The areas of improvement will no doubt be AF, processing speed, cards writing speeds, smart phone/computer integration and most importantly videos. The often forgotten is the lens lineup needs to follow closely behind.
The final and most important will be entry cost. I really think the A7rIII has come in at an excellent and reasonable price level and many will adopt the A7rIII for this reason alone. I speak to a number of camera wholesalers/retailers and they are finding the same with the D850. Price to value ratio is becoming more important.
p.31 #8 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Michael Gordon wrote:
Yes, rented the A7rII for a trip to Bhutan and had the Smooth Reflections app. It took a bit to get accustomed to using it but was sold on the functionality. It appears the files have lower noise as well. I wish they had not ditched the concept until they put the best ones in the firmware. I think this new Arsenal gizmo will do the same thing, but is more expensive and more of a pain to carry then just the cam or a few filters. I think one gets one raw file form the new gizmo too, but would have to refresh my memory to be sure. https://witharsenal.com/
This Arsenal gizmo is cool. In my view. this is the future of getting more out of existing sensor tech... using software. It's a trend that is already being heavily pursued in camera phones. It's a shame that Sony is not embracing this kind of stuff by turning some of their useful apps into integrated features on the camera. Better HDR, focus stacking, multi-exposure stacking, and time lapse are obvious choices that would be great differentiators and truly useful tools.
p.31 #9 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
charles.K wrote:
I do feel we are reaching a plateau of FF sensor technology for another couple years. The market is not expanding and shrinking in some respects so Sony and others will now capitalize on present technology and production equipment. Truth is we don't need more MP's and the DR has probably max'd out depending on how your define it. We always want more and better DR but I think we have hit a anchor for awhile. I am sure this is why Nikon opted for the D5 low light, sports performance and the D850 for weddings/functions and high end portraits. I see the same parallel with the A9 and A7rIII. No single sensor and processor can do everything... yet at least not for a prohibitively high price.
The areas of improvement will no doubt be AF, processing speed, cards writing speeds, smart phone/computer integration and most importantly videos. The often forgotten is the lens lineup needs to follow closely behind.
The final and most important will be entry cost. I really think the A7rIII has come in at an excellent and reasonable price level and many will adopt the A7rIII for this reason alone. I speak to a number of camera wholesalers/retailers and they are finding the same with the D850. Price to value ratio is becoming more important. ...Show more →
I'm not sure it's a plateau as much as it is just the time between major leaps in sensor performance. The last major leap in sensor performance was probably the D810 and A7RII which are circa 2014 tech. Before that, it's hard to pick a major leap in sensor performance (almost all was very incremental) although I recall the Canon 5DII being hailed as a major advancement in high ISO performance and that was 2008. So perhaps it takes 5-7 years to make major improvements in sensors which would explain some of the Canon and Nikon refresh cycles. It may mean we shouldn't expect a major improvement in sensors until 2019/2020.
p.31 #10 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
virtualrain wrote:
I'm not sure it's a plateau as much as it is just the time between major leaps in sensor performance. The last major leap in sensor performance was probably the D810 and A7RII which are circa 2014 tech. Before that, it's hard to pick a major leap in sensor performance (almost all was very incremental) although I recall the Canon 5DII being hailed as a major advancement in high ISO performance and that was 2008. So perhaps it takes 5-7 years to make major improvements in sensors which would explain some of the Canon and Nikon refresh cycles. It may mean we shouldn't expect a major improvement in sensors until 2019/2020....Show more →
To me, the last major leap in sensor performance was during the A7R / D800 era. After that, changes have been incremental as far as sensor performance goes. The A7R still has an amazing sensor even today.
p.31 #11 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
mttran wrote:
Get the grip to cut down that shutter shock. Yes, I am perfectly happy with my A7R IQ for my application. I maybe wait a little longer to see any other offers from sony.
I just moved to the a7r2 (dead mk1) and its a great upgrade but expensive (even with insurance).
p.31 #12 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
GMPhotography wrote:
The A9 is really the king in Sony except for mpx. I’m going to sell mine at some point here but not exactly happy about it either
I don't see how the A7R3 will be a replacement for the A9 at all. If I already had an A9, I wouldn't sell it at this point. They seem like perfect companions on a shoot. Same batteries too
I did order the A7R3 but am anxious to see real reviews. After struggling to shoot moving action with my A7R2, I'm really skeptical.
Oct 26, 2017 at 10:54 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.31 #13 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
zhangyue wrote:
Philip, not it does matter, but that graph is at pixel level, you have to compare them at output with same resolution. The king was D810，now is D850 after down size to 36M. D850’s DR exceed both Pentax 645z and Fuji GFX only inforior to IQ3100 at the same output resolution.
Really, it doesn’t matter any more once this passing to certain level, at least to me.
Since we are talking about fact, I couldn’t help.
Michael, what you wrote here isn't true on several levels. First William Klaff's site is not at the pixel level and does normalize the numbers to equate on output size. Read the details of how the numbers are computed and that is made clear. Second, the D850 does not have more DR than any of the miniMF sensors. They don't have much more but they do have about a quarter of a stop more. The D850 has a great sensor. For low ISO shooting probably the best FF 35mm sensor, but let's not overstate how good it is.
p.31 #14 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
I am still trying to figure out how much of an improvement in "image quality" can be made by the changes they have made to the supporting components of the sensor. They claim sharpness and color will be "better" which could mean different things to different people. I guess I don't really know how much of an improvement in IQ can be made without an entirely new sensor....
p.31 #15 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
From Brian Smith's page: "While a7R III can’t match a9’s 20 FPS, it’s mechanical shutter offers the ability to shoot with flash up to 10 FPS – twice the speed of a9!"
p.31 #16 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
I don’t have a extra 3200 for a body on top of a 4500 body . That’s throwing stupid money in the can. I bought the A9 for speed because the A7r2 sucked at it,the A9 was a stop gap until this A7rIII that is certainly look to pick it up a notch. I need 42mpx end of day. I rented the A7r2 when I needed 42 for a gig. That has been my plan all along. The A9 is faster than I needed so I can throttle back a little but not to the the A7r2, that has been the issue with it could not keep up.
p.31 #17 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
As a landscape photographer, to me the camera is primarily a box housing the best sensor I can get, and in that regard I have to agree the IQ of the A7r mkI has not been improved upon by much. With 2-3 stitched shots from a 24mm ts-e II that camera produces about the same quality images I used to get from 4x5 film.
I bought some very sharp glass recently in anticipation of a new Sony sensor (ideally about 60MP+) that would allow me to get comparable results to my LF film without stitching (and without buying an expensive MF system) partly so I can explore more dynamic images (moving water etc.) again. I find the new A7rIII therefore a big disappointment because the one thing I was looking forward to is missing.
It seems odd that most of the talk over the last two years took it as a given that the A7rIII would have a higher MP sensor, but not much is mentioned about that elephant in the A7rIII room now.
p.31 #18 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Gary Clennan wrote:
I am still trying to figure out how much of an improvement in "image quality" can be made by the changes they have made to the supporting components of the sensor. They claim sharpness and color will be "better" which could mean different things to different people. I guess I don't really know how much of an improvement in IQ can be made without an entirely new sensor....
Sharpness could theoretically be improved with smaller micro lenses, but at the cost of DR
But in fact the stuff about colour and sharpness is about the new JPEG engine, which by all accounts is indeed better if you care about that. Many people really do. And no it couldn't be done in firmware, because a lot of the processing is baked into the the DSP.
The DR might be very marginally improved by cleaning up the processing to give an even lower noise floor. But I doubt there is much that can be done there (Nikon have slightly better DR at base ISO because they have lowered to the base ISO to allow more light - it's not about the imaging pipeline)
So all in all I'd be surprised if there is a worthwhile IQ difference in RAW (but there may well be if you shoot JPEG much)
But the mark 2 wasn't short on IQ; but had a number of annoyances most of which have been fixed, and there are some great usability upgrades: I never found the EVF of the Mark 2 annoying until I looked though an A9 - and now we have it.
Oct 26, 2017 at 11:14 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.31 #19 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
Gary Clennan wrote:
I am still trying to figure out how much of an improvement in "image quality" can be made by the changes they have made to the supporting components of the sensor. They claim sharpness and color will be "better" which could mean different things to different people. I guess I don't really know how much of an improvement in IQ can be made without an entirely new sensor....
You will see a very noticeable improvement in IQ if you can use the pixel shift feature. Without it I think the IQ gains over the A7r II are going to be small. If you shoot in silent mode you will see less noise at high ISO, will be another place where a gain will be pretty noticeable as the 14-bit files should have a bit less noise. I think the sensor cover glass will be better at handling reflections too, which may help at times with night shooting. Beyond that don't expect much. The A7rII has a fantastic sensor which produced great IQ, and we will still see that great IQ with this camera. It is a bit hard to have your hopes dashed, but the reality is that this is still a great IQ camera.
p.31 #20 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!
rvh23 wrote:
As a landscape photographer, to me the camera is primarily a box housing the best sensor I can get, and in that regard I have to agree the IQ of the A7r mkI has not been improved upon by much. With 2-3 stitched shots from a 24mm ts-e II that camera produces about the same quality images I used to get from 4x5 film.
The mk2 is certainly better, but the biggest change is the shutter shake issue is fixed.
