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Archive 2017 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

charles.K
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p.30 #1 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

I feel there are many aspects overlooked here. Like with the D850 update over the D810, my experience is that AF speed/accuracy and consistency is now superb with native lenses but more so with third party lenses like Sigma Art. Where before I had some inconsistency issues with Art series AF, it is no longer there.

I suspect with the newer AF module with the A7rIII will drive the MB V and the Sigma MC 11 faster and more consistently. This is worthy of the upgrade alone.

Also when we are viewing a single dimensional DR chart based on certain settings, it takes away many of improvements you see with actual shots. The case is point is the D810 compared with D850, the D850 is quite an improvement over the D810. I see in improvements in color depth, tonality, shadow noise, WB stability( not blowing channels in artificial lighting) and a AF module that will yield a much higher percentage of shots in focus. Yes the improvements in AF speed/accuracy is important as you may have a uber sharp lens, but not capturing the decisive moment is meaningless regardless of camera/lens combo.

This is how I see the improvements with A7rIII compared to the ArII. I no longer have the A7rII, but I will consider the a7rIII if I don't opt for the M10 and 35 FLE

Edited on Oct 26, 2017 at 06:02 PM · View previous versions

Oct 26, 2017 at 05:50 PM

Matt Grum
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p.30 #2 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

snapsy wrote:
Because their engineers likely didn't expect the pushback from reviewers and photographers over the IQ compromises of their compression algorithms and thus didn't have any logic in their ASIC to convert the uncompressed files to 14-bit and the general-purpose CPU wouldn't be fast enough to do so either.

I agree with that, but earlier you said:

snapsy wrote:
Because the extra two bits would just oversample noise and thus waste image space

If you're shooting compressed RAW then the first stage of compression drops to 11-bit so it makes no difference if the ADC is 12-bit or 14-bit.

And if you're shooting uncompressed RAW then the values are padded up to 16-bit so it doesn't matter space wise if you're oversampling noise, as 16-bits will be used anyway.

Also bulb exposures can be short so it makes even less sense to assume they're going to be noisy and drop to 12-bit.

Oct 26, 2017 at 05:55 PM

JohnDizzo15
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p.30 #3 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Matt Grum wrote:
Sony have said flash sync in pixel shift life is limited to 1/13s, which suggests that pixel shift uses the fully electronic shutter (sensible) and that the scan time is exactly the same as the A7RII i.e. 1/13s.

Sad to say that this is what I was also inclined to believe with the information available thus far. This makes it saddening for my hopes of a higher res body with similar readout to the A9 although it is unsurprising due to price point and logistics of such a great amount of information processing required.

This makes the R3 DOA for me personally since I rely on the ES mode for virtually 99% of my shooting. Probably closer to 100% but I wouldn't want to negate the few dozen mechanical shutter test shots I took when I first got the thing.

I suppose what I was really hoping for then was an A9R.

. The good thing is, though, that at least Sony is trying to maintain somewhat of a product differentiation (rightfully so) and my money stays in my pocket for now.

Oct 26, 2017 at 05:58 PM

pasblues
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p.30 #4 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

TMaG82 wrote:
Even with the a7rII I got mine at launch. I didn't get my order in until 12 today, so I'm far down the list. Going to be an expensive two days, with the a7rIII today and the iPhone X tomorrow.

...assuming they go perfectly in order of orders received. I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy - which ought to get me a coupla bumps...

OKAY, I AM JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!

I'm grateful for the techno geeks on here very, very much when I need to know something super techy detailed.

But, frankly, I'm probably easy-to-please and a simpleton when it comes to what this camera is adding - which is everything that just disappointed the heck out of me with the A7R2. I felt like the A7R2 was like a beautiful mansion built by the train tracks. It has that big beautiful sensor with klutzy functionality. I spent more time looking at the camera controls than I did taking pictures. Had to take a class in how to operate it and even the guy teaching the class started the class by apologizing for how messed up the menu was and how complex the controls were. And I've never seen an instructor do that but I felt validated.

Oct 26, 2017 at 06:46 PM

philip_pj
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p.30 #5 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Page 29 graph.

Every picture tells a story, don't it. What is that green line doing sitting atop all the others - why, it's got the others beaten black and blue. The new king is dead, long live the old (low ISO) king!

On the photonstophotons site listing, the only cameras with higher max PDR than the a7r all have something in common. They are: Phase One IQ3, Phase One IQ 250, Pentax 645z, Fuji GFX 50S, 2 x 'Blad 50c.

Nikons are about the same - a little less than the a7r. Note the D850 is close to the a7r, but you have to find an extra stop of light to get there. The a7r also has *well over a stop* of PDR on the a9. Early generation Sony sensors dominate the top tier of the low ISO PDR listing.

Their notes regarding the 'p' for provisional:
"Data marked with a (p) are preliminary using actual measurements from raw files but not those taken under the usual controlled conditions. Historically preliminary data has been quite accurate.
For more cameras (derived from DxOMark data) see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart. However, data on this chart, when available, is considered to be more accurate." We'll see.

Oct 26, 2017 at 06:51 PM

snapsy
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p.30 #6 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Matt Grum wrote:
I agree with that, but earlier you said:

If you're shooting compressed RAW then the first stage of compression drops to 11-bit so it makes no difference if the ADC is 12-bit or 14-bit.

And if you're shooting uncompressed RAW then the values are padded up to 16-bit so it doesn't matter space wise if you're oversampling noise, as 16-bits will be used anyway.

Also bulb exposures can be short so it makes even less sense to assume they're going to be noisy and drop to 12-bit.

I don't disagree. My original comment was speaking to the lack of utility of 16-bits on current FF sensors due to noise. The fact that Sony pads/extends 14-bit samples in their 16-bit pipeline would be another demonstration of that. That they then can't trim the data back down to 14-bits during image transfer is again a function of not designing that function into their ASIC, thinking they would never need to.

Oct 26, 2017 at 06:57 PM

DavidBM
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p.30 #7 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Schlotkins wrote:
FYI No DR improvement it seems:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Sony%20ILCE-7RM2,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3

Chris

If his preliminary data is right there is maybe 1/3 stop more DR at base, and exactly the same thereafter.
Which is realistically as much as we could expect without lowering base ISO.

EDIT I see a second graph at Claff�s stie, showing exactly the same performance asA7rii. Oh well. Still in either case it makes zero practical difference. IQ was at the bottom of my list of things I wanted upgraded on the A7rii. And most of the list, more than I expected at the price point, has been ticked off..

Edited on Oct 26, 2017 at 07:07 PM · View previous versions

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:00 PM

lambers
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p.30 #8 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

JohnDizzo15 wrote:
Sad to say that this is what I was also inclined to believe with the information available thus far. This makes it saddening for my hopes of a higher res body with similar readout to the A9 although it is unsurprising due to price point and logistics of such a great amount of information processing required.

This makes the R3 DOA for me personally since I rely on the ES mode for virtually 99% of my shooting. Probably closer to 100% but I wouldn't want to negate the few dozen mechanical shutter test shots I took when I first got the...Show more →

Look past the hype. The A7R3 is pretty much an A7R2 in an A9 body minus the left dial. The real benefits will be in ergonomics, battery life, (hopefully) overheating, etc. But jello, ES distortion, rolling shutter, moire/aliasing and low light performance due to pixel binning in FF 4K video will be much the same given the 2+ year old internal architecture.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:01 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.30 #9 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Messier77 wrote:
Agreed, but the battery and improved IBIS alone would sell it for me. No more battery grip needed! Also, I have terribly shaky hands, so every bit of stabilization helps.

The improved EVF and screen, UHS-II cards, better buffer, better ergonomics, and new shutter are all gravy.

I'd consider this a mid-cyle refresh and I'm satisfied with what they've offered

Sure, the new A7RIII gets close to A9 functionality. It's basically better in everything. That's reason enough for me to get one as well.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:03 PM

johnvanr
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p.30 #10 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Arka wrote:
Well, as someone who actually uses an A9 for photography, I don't think your comment about Sony "still making computers first and cameras second" is a fair or accurate characterization of Sony's camera division... not at all. Figuring this stuff out takes time, and it's hard to please everyone. With the embarrassment of riches we have nowadays in the equipment to choose from, someone will inevitably whine about some thing or another - my pinky hurts, my fingers are crammed, the camera is too heavy, too light, too many buttons, too few buttons... on and on. But Sony has, in...Show more →

We will have to agree to disagree. Today, I handled both the A9 and the A7RIII. As I wrote in an earlier post, I�ve owned many Sony A7 cameras, so I�m speaking from experience. The only improvement I noticed today, in handling, is the joystick. The rest is the same old, no matter the speed, the MPs.

I just don�t get all those apologists saying you just have to get used to it. No, you don�t. By now, esp. with their ownership of Minolta, they should have figured out how to build a camera that people generally say is a joy to use, kind of like Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Olympus, Leica etc.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:09 PM

Michael Gordon
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p.30 #11 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Stoffer wrote:
Agreed. But we need someone with connections to Sony to tell them, talking about it here won�t help us much.

Anybody have any connections to some of those Sony Artisan folks maybe

Yes, rented the A7rII for a trip to Bhutan and had the Smooth Reflections app. It took a bit to get accustomed to using it but was sold on the functionality. It appears the files have lower noise as well. I wish they had not ditched the concept until they put the best ones in the firmware. I think this new Arsenal gizmo will do the same thing, but is more expensive and more of a pain to carry then just the cam or a few filters. I think one gets one raw file form the new gizmo too, but would have to refresh my memory to be sure.
https://witharsenal.com/

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:10 PM

DavidBM
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p.30 #12 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Fred Miranda wrote:
Sure, the new A7RIII gets close to the A9 functionality. It's basically better in everything. That's reason enough for me to get one as well.

However, after all these years, I was hoping that the A7RII successor would have a newer sensor tech with higher resolution, broader DR and lower base ISO (like 50). Basically something that would 'shake up' the market again...

I really feel Sony has something up their sleeves in terms of sensor tech. Otherwise perhaps we are getting into a plateau.

Within seconds of seeing the r3 was 42MP I thought �A9r at Photokina�

So I wondered if I should wait.

First: I could be wrong, and this r3 does deal with 95% or my long list of wants in an upgrade.

Second: the really high megapixel model is likely slower, and I�ve been resisting so far successfully an A9 for tracking and busts (dogs in action mainly, and wildlife). But 20fps is far more than I need - if this is a full frame 6500 that�s good enough, So maybe the r3 saves me money by being a one body does all solution? Just so long as we don�t upgrade expecting any RAW IQ improvements, except where pixel shift can be used.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:14 PM

DannyBurkPhoto
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p.30 #13 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

I'm undecided, but I'm tending toward not upgrading this time. Being a manual focus and alt-lens landscape and flower shooter, the specs are underwhelming from my point of view. I have no use for autofocus, multi-frames per second, video, etc. The improved viewfinder would be nice, but not nice enough that I'd order it for that. I confidently expected more MP and hoped for masked aspect ratios, but we got neither of those.

Pixel shift interests me if it's actually a substantial improvement, but I'll wait for reviews and samples first. I've been planning to sell my backup camera (Canon 5DSR) and put that money toward an A7R3 upgrade, but I'm just not seeing much that would make it a good value to me. Maybe the putative A9R, if it has higher res than 42 - or maybe not till the A7R4. On the other hand, if pixel shift results prove to be fantastic, I could changes courses for that.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:16 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.30 #14 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

mitesh wrote:
Fred,

Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but for landscape shooters like yourself who use mostly MF primes, if this camera isn't offering greater resolution and/or DR, I'm wondering what your decision factors were in deciding to pre-order? Thanks in advance!

If I solely used my camera for landscapes (which is not the case), I'm not sure I would upgrade Mitesh.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:17 PM

Messier77
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p.30 #15 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Fred Miranda wrote:
Sure, the new A7RIII gets close to the A9 functionality. It's basically better in everything. That's reason enough for me to get one as well.

However, after all these years, I was hoping that the A7RII successor would have a newer sensor tech with higher resolution, broader DR and lower base ISO (like 50). Basically something that would 'shake up' the market again...

I really feel Sony has something up their sleeves in terms of sensor tech. Otherwise perhaps we are hitting a plateau.

The announcement has really got me thinking that Sony has hit a plateau with sensor tech, at least as far as realistic consumer pricing goes. One has to think that if they had a reliable and reasonably priced sensor that handily beat the D850 in resolution, they would have been parading it around like the holy grail and scooping up every bit of free advertising from the "highest resolution full frame sensor ever created" headlines on all the review/news websites.

If I had to guess, I'd say that they have a brand new higher resolution sensor in the pipeline, but they are at least a year or two away from getting it down to a reasonable price to manufacture so that we're not looking at $6500+ dollar territory. Also, it would piss a lot of people off if they released their "R" (resolution) model only to trounce their own camera 6 or so months later.

Edited on Oct 26, 2017 at 07:28 PM · View previous versions

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:21 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.30 #16 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

DavidBM wrote:
Within seconds of seeing the r3 was 42MP I thought �A9r at Photokina�

So I wondered if I should wait.

First: I could be wrong, and this r3 does deal with 95% or my long list of wants in an upgrade.

Second: the really high megapixel model is likely slower, and I�ve been resisting so far successfully an A9 for tracking and busts (dogs in action mainly, and wildlife). But 20fps is far more than I need - if this is a full frame 6500 that�s good enough, So maybe the r3 saves me money by being a one body does all solution?...Show more →

Exactly David. it's like having a A7RII + A6500 in one...but with even more features. It could definitely satisfy landscape, nature and even sport photographers. However, I think that wedding and event photographers will love it the most. The A9 was a bit overkill for them.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:27 PM

gocolts
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p.30 #17 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Fred Miranda wrote:
Exactly David. it's like having a A7RII + A6500 in one...but with even more features. It could definitely satisfy landscape, nature and even sport photographers. However, I think that wedding and event photographers will love it the most. The A9 was a bit overkill for them.

I agree it's like having an A7RII & A6500 in one, and since I have (well had, the A6500 gets shipped out to it's new owner tomorrow) that combo, the A7R3 was a no-brainer for me. And from a cost standpoint, no matter what my A7R2 is worth by the time I sell it, the total out of pocket after selling both the A6500 & A7R2 is worth the additional features the A7R3 provides over both cameras, IMO.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:46 PM

Schlotkins
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p.30 #18 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

If it wasn't for the darn shutter shock as a manual focusing landscape guy, I'd be perfectly happy with the A7r still.

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:51 PM

GMPhotography
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p.30 #19 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

That�s Me. I don�t need the extreme speed. This fits me better than the A9

Oct 26, 2017 at 07:56 PM

mttran
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p.30 #20 · Pre-orders open! Sony A7R III and FE 24-105mm f/4 OSS lens!

Schlotkins wrote:
If it wasn't for the darn shutter shock as a manual focusing landscape guy, I'd be perfectly happy with the A7r still.

Get the grip to cut down that shutter shock. Yes, I am perfectly happy with my A7R IQ for my application. I maybe wait a little longer to see any other offers from sony.

Oct 26, 2017 at 08:00 PM

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