p.51 #1 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
@Rusty, It sounds like the 6D2 should be fine for what you shoot, but those of us that might shoot street scenes, or weddings with tons of contrast, and especially if outside, and those that shoot flash in lower light scenes, but still want to pull the background up because their lights didn't penetrate that far out, the 6D2 seems lacking.
p.51 #2 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
-pekr- wrote:
Well, all this is so unbelievable, that I wonder what happens next. If we are lucky, Canon gets devastated in reviews and also by coming upgrades of competing brands, that we might see 6DIII in one year.
But knowing Canon and their capability to sell to the masses, they might be lucky to turn 6DII into the sales success anyway, so I doubt 6DIII happens anytime soon ...
Nothing much will happen. The 6DII is a cheap camera. Pros or others that need better IQ will buy a 5D4 or other camera. If the sales are significantly slow the price will drop.
p.51 #3 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
EB-1 wrote:
Nothing much will happen.
One thing will happen though: DR freaks all over the forums will scream foul and tout very loudly that Canon is going to die, that they are never going to buy another camera from them (although they will happily buy boatloads of the lenses to use them on their Sony cameras) and will produce mangled messes of pixels that don't deserve the name photo, just because their camera allows them to push exposure - and they fail to notice that in doing so they have willingly messed up 9 out of 10 things that make up a good photo just because it's oh so easy to push in post...
p.51 #4 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
charlyw wrote:
One thing will happen though: DR freaks all over the forums will scream foul and tout very loudly that Canon is going to die, that they are never going to buy another camera from them (although they will happily buy boatloads of the lenses to use them on their Sony cameras) and will produce mangled messes of pixels that don't deserve the name photo, just because their camera allows them to push exposure - and they fail to notice that in doing so they have willingly messed up 9 out of 10 things that make up a good photo just because it's oh so easy to push in post... ...Show more →
Or, DR freaks will use this as an important factor in whether they want to spend $2k on a camera. Pretty sure most of us here know that this camera will still almost certainly sell extremely well, and will still be a fine camera that offers a lot for a lot of people and one that takes excellent images. But for some of us, DR is important and to have no increase over what we currently shoot with is important to our decision making process.
p.51 #5 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
charlyw wrote:
One thing will happen though: DR freaks all over the forums will scream foul and tout very loudly that Canon is going to die, that they are never going to buy another camera from them (although they will happily buy boatloads of the lenses to use them on their Sony cameras) and will produce mangled messes of pixels that don't deserve the name photo, just because their camera allows them to push exposure - and they fail to notice that in doing so they have willingly messed up 9 out of 10 things that make up a good photo just because it's oh so easy to push in post... ...Show more →
Cool we've got some heroes here, who seem to be the only ones knowing how to properly use the camera and obey its eventual defficiencies. That should help some ppl to handle their eventual buyer's remorse after they read all those doom & gloom reviews of conspirators like Bill or DPReview :-)
p.51 #6 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
-pekr- wrote:
Cool we've got some heroes here, who seem to be the only ones knowing how to properly use the camera and obey its eventual defficiencies.
It's not obeying some deficiencies but rather knowing how to cope with them and not blowing them out of proportion. It's like at the height of film usage - everybody and his dog was using Fuji Velvia 50 although even the neighborhood cat knew that Agfa and Kodak slide films had more dynamic range leeway... Sorry but enhanced DR comes at a cost - in having to forgo the chance to check your shot afterwards and to put yourself at the mercy of the dabbled reflected light that is illluminating your subject so badly that you need all that dynamic range to protect that one area of your shot that doesn't really contribute to the photo... I have still not seen a single worthwhile image that wasn't completely messed up by exploiting that extended DR...
p.51 #7 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
The attached screen grab from the DPR shows clear as day that the 6D2 does not include a modern sensor like the 5DIV. It's about the same as a 5D3.
charlyw wrote:
One thing will happen though: DR freaks all over the forums will scream foul and tout very loudly that Canon is going to die, that they are never going to buy another camera from them (although they will happily buy boatloads of the lenses to use them on their Sony cameras) and will produce mangled messes of pixels that don't deserve the name photo, just because their camera allows them to push exposure - and they fail to notice that in doing so they have willingly messed up 9 out of 10 things that make up a good photo just because it's oh so easy to push in post... ...Show more →
Canon is not going to die. The biggest company by market share has all the resources they need to make better sensors and they chosen to NOT use that tech in a new product. Why should that be applauded? Of course people will buy this camera and take good photos with it. You adapt to the tools you have, but that doesn't mean your tools are not holding you back. And by human nature people who go out and buy the inferior technology are not going to admit they were wrong. They are going to double down and point to the market share and say "See, Canon is the best!" Canon has lagged behind the competition for years in DR and so many Canon users have stuck their head in the sand and shrugged off technological gains enjoyed by users of other platforms.
I am a landscape shooter who used to shoot Canon. Now I have almost entirely switched to Sony, with the only real use of my 5D3 being when I want to have fast autofocus on my 100-400 (which is when I'm not shooting landscapes), which is one of only 3 Canon lenses I have left. And recently I've been eyeing getting rid of the rest of it. I love the extra DR the Sony sensors provide, which I now shoot on with almost entirely native Sony glass. The 5D4 showed that maybe Canon was finally advancing forward and to follow it up with this 6D2 sensor is disappointing. I had thought about replacing my 5D3 with a 6D2 until I saw the comically small AF point spread and now the final nail in the coffin is the old tech sensor.
One modern Canon sensor, one old tech Canon sensor
p.51 #8 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
kurt765 wrote:
The attached screen grab from the DPR shows clear as day that the 6D2 does not include a modern sensor like the 5DIV. It's about the same as a 5D3.
False, it shows that Canon chose a sensor that can be manufactured to the price point of the camera and still leave some leeway for future price reductions...
kurt765 wrote:
has all the resources they need to make better sensors and they chosen to NOT use that tech in a new product.
And I am willing to bet a considerable amount of money that they did so because of the projected price point of the camera which leaves x$ for the sensor itself - and if that new sensor technology for a full frame sensor still is costing them y$ and y>x then they will chose a technology which gives them the projected price.
kurt765 wrote:
"See, Canon is the best!"
You can't keep afloat as a company if that means that you spend more money on the item sold than it brings in - all factors included, such as exchange rate risks, supply chain, yadda. Only if they were to limit the run so that they can claim that fame and still be certain not to lose too much money in the end they could do such a stunt....
kurt765 wrote:
Canon has lagged behind the competition for years in DR and so many Canon users have stuck their head in the sand and shrugged off technological gains enjoyed by users of other platforms.
I haven't seen a single photo which was only possible because of the other companies technological advantage - not a single fricking one - all I got to see were inept users using a technology to mask their lack of ability to compose a picture... The worst are those that use that technology to get rid of flash setups to the detriment of the results (i have seen truly horrible results that should never ever have reached the customers)...
kurt765 wrote:
I am a landscape shooter who used to shoot Canon. Now I have almost entirely switched to Sony, with the only real use of my 5D3 being when I want to have fast autofocus on my 100-400 (which is when I'm not shooting landscapes), which is one of only 3 Canon lenses I have left. And recently I've been eyeing getting rid of the rest of it. I love the extra DR the Sony sensors provide, which I now shoot on with almost entirely native Sony glass. The 5D4 showed that maybe Canon was finally advancing forward and to follow it up with this 6D2 sensor is disappointing. I had thought about replacing my 5D3 with a 6D2 until I saw the comically small AF point spread and now the final nail in the coffin is the old tech sensor. ...Show more →
What is the difference in landscape photography? What can you do that you couldn't do with a Canon - because landscape photography lives and dies with the light - literally, if you have bad light then you have bad light, you may be able to polish a turd but you will come off smelling like sh*t doing so...
p.51 #10 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
charlyw wrote:
False, it shows that Canon chose a sensor that can be manufactured to the price point of the camera and still leave some leeway for future price reductions...
Then you might explain to us, how this more advanced/expensive technology got its way into the lower specced APS-C models as 80D and 77D?
Simply put, Canon did it on purpose. And this time, they run it over the board and be sure they will get what they deserve.
p.51 #11 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
-pekr- wrote:
Then you might explain to us, how this more advanced/expensive technology got its way into the lower specced APS-C models as 80D and 77D?
Smaller = exponentially cheaper - that has always be the case for technologies that don't have yields close to 100% and new technologies always fall into that category...
p.51 #12 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
charlyw wrote:
One thing will happen though: DR freaks all over the forums will scream foul and tout very loudly that Canon is going to die ...
And what do you propose that we do - applaud Canon for what they've done .
I'm sure that the 6DII will put smiles on a lot of faces.
But let's be real here: Canon cannot be applauded for not giving it all to their loyal/locked-in users.
p.51 #13 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
-pekr- wrote:
Then you might explain to us, how this more advanced/expensive technology got its way into the lower specced APS-C models as 80D and 77D?
Simply put, Canon did it on purpose. And this time, they run it over the board and be sure they will get what they deserve.
Because the sensor in the 6D2 is 2.5 times the size of the sensor in the APS-C models. There are inevitably huge engineering costs associated with this.
p.51 #14 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
While this is disappointing from a technical perspective, it's a genius business move by Canon. 97% of their target market for this camera does not care what shadows look like when you push 4 stops and I'm sure they saved a boatload of money on the sensor.
That same 97% of the target market does care about flip screen, DPAF, new AF, more megapixels, etc.
The 6D2 will be a huge success overall as a result.
p.51 #15 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
mb126 wrote:
Because the sensor in the 6D2 is 2.5 times the size of the sensor in the APS-C models. There are inevitably huge engineering costs associated with this.
Apart from the sensor size, do you know of how the semiconductor tech might work? It also might be, that the production line, which produces the 5DIV, is modified to do so. And in fact, Canon has to run some old processes, to get the timely crippled processors without ADC on sensor. As my point of view might be a speculation, so is imo yours about the size of the sensor influencing the price in the process, which surely is more complex that we both envision ...
p.51 #16 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
EB-1 wrote:
Nothing much will happen. The 6DII is a cheap camera. Pros or others that need better IQ will buy a 5D4 or other camera. If the sales are significantly slow the price will drop.
EBH
I am not sure the word cheap applies to the best Canon entry level FF camera. I used a 6D for three years and I would resent someone telling me I am using a cheap camera.
For some, money is no object. They can buy the top of the line FF from Canon (or other manufacturers). When money counts, the 6D and 6DII are less expensive (maybe the word you meant to use) and produce satisfactory IQ most of the time. For a number of 6D (or II) buyers, the limit is their skills/ability... not the camera's.
p.51 #17 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
-pekr- wrote:
Apart from the sensor size, do you know of how the semiconductor tech might work? It also might be, that the production line, which produces the 5DIV, is modified to do so. And in fact, Canon has to run some old processes, to get the timely crippled processors without ADC on sensor. As my point of view might be a speculation, so is imo yours about the size of the sensor influencing the price in the process, which surely is more complex that we both envision ...
Yes this is all speculative. It took Nikon until 2007 to produce a FF digital chip for widespread use. Everything is harder on FF sensors.
p.51 #18 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
kurt765 wrote:
The attached screen grab from the DPR shows clear as day that the 6D2 does not include a modern sensor like the 5DIV. It's about the same as a 5D3.
Canon is not going to die. The biggest company by market share has all the resources they need to make better sensors and they chosen to NOT use that tech in a new product. Why should that be applauded? Of course people will buy this camera and take good photos with it. You adapt to the tools you have, but that doesn't mean your tools are not holding you back. And by human nature people who go out and buy the inferior technology are not going to admit they were wrong. They are going to double down and point to the market share and say "See, Canon is the best!" Canon has lagged behind the competition for years in DR and so many Canon users have stuck their head in the sand and shrugged off technological gains enjoyed by users of other platforms.
I am a landscape shooter who used to shoot Canon. Now I have almost entirely switched to Sony, with the only real use of my 5D3 being when I want to have fast autofocus on my 100-400 (which is when I'm not shooting landscapes), which is one of only 3 Canon lenses I have left. And recently I've been eyeing getting rid of the rest of it. I love the extra DR the Sony sensors provide, which I now shoot on with almost entirely native Sony glass. The 5D4 showed that maybe Canon was finally advancing forward and to follow it up with this 6D2 sensor is disappointing. I had thought about replacing my 5D3 with a 6D2 until I saw the comically small AF point spread and now the final nail in the coffin is the old tech sensor.
Give us a break. For the last 5 years, doom has been heaped on each Canon camera model because the senor technology did not enable photographers to push shadows by 4, 5 or 6 stops. And each and every time sales figures show that the market cares not one jot.
Canon's job is to sell the maximum number of units and they do that very successfully. If the qualities you describe are so important, how come Sony has barely 30% of the market despite supposed sensor superiority. In every other tech field, superiority in technology and capability very quickly translates to market dominance - yet what is it about the camera market that runs counter to that?
If I shoot a landscape, I don't want the shadows to show every single detail as if it was in broad daylight and I have rarely met a shadow where more than a 2-stop push looks anything other than artificial.
There are more comparisons coming out that seem to demonstrate that the 6D2 has superior image to 6D. And considering that pre-launch the wishlist had image quality way down the list, the 6D2 seems to have done what people asked. And just because their priorities are different to yours does not mean they are hiding their heads in the sand being happy with a camera you see as being inferior - it just means they have different priorities.
p.51 #19 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
charlyw wrote:
False, it shows that Canon chose a sensor that can be manufactured to the price point of the camera and still leave some leeway for future price reductions...
Other camera manufacturers seem to have no problem producing better sensors in cameras at lower price points, like the D750. I should give Canon a handicap because with all their success they are inept at producing better sensors at a lower price point? Nope.
charlyw wrote:
And I am willing to bet a considerable amount of money that they did so because of the projected price point of the camera which leaves x$ for the sensor itself - and if that new sensor technology for a full frame sensor still is costing them y$ and y>x then they will chose a technology which gives them the projected price.
I care literally not at all for whatever the internal business forces are at work within the company. They produced an inferior product, and if that's what you want then go buy one but I sure won't.
charlyw wrote:
You can't keep afloat as a company if that means that you spend more money on the item sold than it brings in - all factors included, such as exchange rate risks, supply chain, yadda. Only if they were to limit the run so that they can claim that fame and still be certain not to lose too much money in the end they could do such a stunt....
*gasp* maybe they could invest some of their success into making their products better, because other makers are. Is Canon in danger of not staying afloat? I thought they were #1?
charlyw wrote:
I haven't seen a single photo which was only possible because of the other companies technological advantage - not a single fricking one - all I got to see were inept users using a technology to mask their lack of ability to compose a picture... The worst are those that use that technology to get rid of flash setups to the detriment of the results (i have seen truly horrible results that should never ever have reached the customers)...
This is a stupid argument. You are arguing that advances in technology are pointless, because you can still take good photos with old technology. While you can still take good photos, why not capture the most information possible when you click the shutter? Why throw away what you could be capturing? I like capturing more highlight detail and not having awful noise in the shadows. You don't have to push the exposure a ton to notice the difference in the raw files in my experience.
charlyw wrote:
What is the difference in landscape photography? What can you do that you couldn't do with a Canon - because landscape photography lives and dies with the light - literally, if you have bad light then you have bad light, you may be able to polish a turd but you will come off smelling like sh*t doing so...
Photos where previously I had to combine brackets to preserve dynamic range I can now capture with ONE exposure. I like that quite a lot. It saves a ton of time. I like both the increase in DR and the increase in resolution. Garbage in, gargbage out. If your sensor captures garbage there's not much you can do about it after the fact. I don't like to have piles of garbage lurking in the shadows or early clipping in the highlights. To each his own I guess.
p.51 #20 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
My thought, FWIW - Canon used the old dies one more time for the 6D2. They've undoubtedly paid for themselves over and over, so they're essentially free to use (raw materials only). And, they've taken basically the same AF module that is used on the 80D. In fact, I bet that there are a number of parts that are shared with other bodies.
So, Canon can make 6D2 bodies and sell them for less than their competitors, while bringing very good results. I think that Canon is positioning the 6D2 to be able to undercut the competition in terms of price if needed, while providing a very good update to an otherwise good camera.
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