p.33 #1 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
TurboJonte wrote:
Found this comment from Canon on Canons official Facebook page: "In terms of image quality, the sensor in the EOS 6D Mark II is from the same generation as the EOS 5D Mark IV, rather than EOS 5D Mark III, so the image quality will be similar to the EOS 5D Mark IV. There will be differences in certain shooting conditions but if its better, will probably come down to personal preferences."
So what's up with the Mk II?
+1 that the statement of 5D4 Gen is encouraging ... which suggests it goes along with DPAF and the other new gen models (as was assumed it would be).
+1 with Jim ... Welcome to FM, although you've been registered more than a decade. I think you must have the record as the longest lurker in FM.
p.33 #2 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
The secret is that Canon wanted to stifle a huge initial pre-order by putting out an inferior camera sample for people to go crazy testing and then pulling their hair out, and their pre-orders for the new camera.
p.33 #3 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
I've normally defended Canon's practices as intelligent business choices. Let's look at what Canon has done here, and it's pretty simple...
The 6D was frequently recommended over the 5D Mark III due to image quality and it's -3EV center AF point - and the resulting price vs features.
Canon took notice. Don't think Canon doesn't have people monitoring forums and social media. THEY DO, GUARANTEED.
This lost Canon a LOT of money in 5D Mark III sales from people who COULD HAVE afforded the 5D Mark III, but chose not to purchase it and bought a 6D instead.
So what's the fix? Ensure that the AF on the 5D Mark IV is better and more robust than the 6D Mark II (arguably, depending on shooting style, but generally, it is - especially for people who want off-center compositions) and that the IQ is also better (no doubt about it).
What has Canon done here? They've done their best to ensure that people with the budget for the 5D Mark IV use it on the 5D Mark IV. SMART business decision. HOWEVER...
Canon has also provided an opportunity for people with the budget for the 6D Mark II (especially consumers upgrading to FF) to NOT spend it at all, or to consider a camera from Sony - neither of which was too much of an option back when the 6D was launched.
As I opened this post, I generally defend Canon's (sometimes infuriating) decisions as smart business. In this case however, I think they've screwed the pooch.
Obviously, I'm just one person with an opinion and no marketing data, so Canon is still likely correct in their choice - especially given that they have access to all of the data regarding their costs. But if I were a betting man, I'd put some money on "red" (ie, Canon screwed up this time), and not "green" (ie, Canon is going to maximize revenue with the choices they've made).
p.33 #4 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
lighthound wrote:
And depending on how pissed off people get over this,
So.... I'm now clinging to the 0.002% of hope. At least it's an improvement from yesterday.
I'm not "pi$$ed" off" by it, but it sure is a head-scratcher as to whether this is going to be reality going forward, or somehow it is not representative of what Canon will be putting in our hands.
Those who have been long time users of Canon know that many upgrade models are met with a degree of "meh" by a lot of folks as Canon methodically / strategically plods along at their own pace of improvement. I wasn't shooting Canon when the 1D2 > 1D2 N (although I have both of those bodies) released, so I don't know what the sentiment was back then.
That said, the current (and hopefully somehow unrepresentative ray: ) response to the the prospect of the unimproved IQ of the 6D2 is being felt much more strongly than the "meh" of minor or modest improvements that get labeled as "not class leading" or "not innovative". Not class leading, not expected. Not innovative, not expected. Not improved IQ, not expected. The first two seem to be business as usual as "meh". The (current info) one seems to be NOT business as usual and has some eyes popping wide open for a lot of folks ... some seemingly popping right out of their head.
I thought the 6D2 was going to fit my goals like the missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle. But ... IF ... this IQ holds true, then I'll probably do something different. I like the IQ of my 80D at base ISO (but it's crop limits UWA, etc.) so I may simply pick up something in the 11mm range to offset that ... giving pause to see A) if the 6D2 is really as we are seeing here, and B) to see if Canon responds with a 6D2 N of sorts (if A holds true).
Those who have know I've shot the SLR/C for my FF (until the 80D IQ came along), know I'm long in the tooth overdue for a new FF. I really thought the 6D2 was going to be "the one" for me. At the moment, even the flippy screen doesn't override the drop in base ISO IQ from the 80D level down to the 6D2 level for me.
Like Dave, I haven't thrown out the 6D2 just yet ... but, I must acknowledge that alternative plans are being considered while waiting to learn if our concerns are indeed reality.
p.33 #5 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Jonathan Brady wrote:
As I opened this post, I generally defend Canon's (sometimes infuriating) decisions as smart business. In this case however, I think they've screwed the pooch.
+1 regarding the viewpoint of business / manufacturing. But, the preliminary info is conjuring up thoughts of Edsel / New Coke territory.
p.33 #6 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Good discussion going on here. Its nice to see nobody seems to be a crazy fanboy one way or the other.
Anyways, I cancelled my preorder last night. As a current owner of the 6D I just cannot fathom that there would be practically 0 increase in DR given that other more modern canon sensors seem to have a sizeable increase. I would not say no increase in IQ, but if its all high ISO stuff, I really just don't care. The extra increase in resolution is nice, but hardly that big of a jump and by making the pixels smaller dont we just run the risk of having less per pixel sharpness and worse IQ anyways, especially in the absence of other improvements?
So, given the current evidence staring us all in the face, I cancelled my preorder. That is not to say the 6DII will be a bad camera. I still really dig the features it has added, but I just dont think I can justify it as a $2000 upgrade over the 6D with no real improvement in image quality (for my purposes and wants).
So, by not having a preorder, I can now wait a little while for more reviews and confirmations. And even if the DR is actually improved, all I lose is a small amount of time while I wait for stock to replenish. And in the meantime, my 6D is still a fantastic camera, nothing has changed with that because of this.
And if it turns out that this is all true, well, I will consider other options. The original plan was to keep the 6D as a backup, but I may sell it to fund the 6DII, or I may just keep the 6D. And I hate to sound like one of those people who jumps ship because they dont get their way, but if this is truly a decision canon has made, to keep IQ exactly the same or worse than a 5 year old camera, then it seems my priorities might just be different than canons, and it might, just might, be time to maybe consider a sony body... if I truly still feel the need to upgrade now. I do however still love my small collection of canon lenses, and absolutely do not want to part with them.
p.33 #7 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
lighthound wrote:
Here, let me fix that for ya.
"The 0.001% hope that keeps popping up is based largely on the hope that these preliminary DR test results are from a pre-production camera. This comment from Canon moves that up to 0.002%, at least."
I gotta take every sliver of hope I can get here. A single decimal point shift helps.
I was honestly hoping to wake up this morning to read that someone discovered a flaw in the data, and that the 6DII DR is in fact in the same ballpark as it's little and big brother.
The above Crackbook comment gives me even more hope.
Something just isn't right here.
If you think about it, what made the 6D such a hot seller for Canon? We all know the answer to this, so why would Canon spend all the $$ developing the new 6DII and giving it all the asked for upgrades and many new improvements, then turn around and KILL the very thing that made the 6D legendary in the first place.
Even a 12 year old from Nebraska would know this would be product suicide. And depending on how pissed off people get over this, possibly corporate suicide.
So.... I'm now clinging to the 0.002% of hope. At least it's an improvement from yesterday. ...Show more →
My take on that Canon statement is that the 6DII is optimized for dynamic range at high ISO. It might even be better than the 5D IV. The 6D DR at high ISO is about equal to the 5D IV, and the slight improvement in the 6D II that cgarcia hinted at may be enough to make it slightly better than the 5D IV.
It increases the possibility of a high ISO improvement to above 50%, but reduces the probability of better low ISO DR than indicated here to 0.00001% at best.
p.33 #8 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Mashuto wrote:
it might, just might, be time to maybe consider a sony body... if I truly still feel the need to upgrade now. I do however still love my small collection of canon lenses, and absolutely do not want to part with them.
You could always try them on an A7R II with a Metabones adapter. You might be surprised at the results.
p.33 #9 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
I have to admit I'm scratching my head too. This is the first Canon DSLR that seems to have poorer IQ than its predecessor. I can't believe that they would do that. Maybe the guy that did the 24-105L$ MkII did the 6D Mkii?
I guess we will have to wait until a few more examples are available.
p.33 #10 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Ferrophot wrote:
I have to admit I'm scratching my head too. This is the first Canon DSLR that seems to have poorer IQ than its predecessor. I can't believe that they would do that. Maybe the guy that did the 24-105L$ MkII did the 6D Mkii?
I guess we will have to wait until a few more examples are available.
It is only one aspect of IQ that is affected, the whole balance is unknown yet.
You have a point, though. Sensor image quality has matured, there is not much room for further improvement under the current paradigm. It will be common to see new models that may be slightly better or worse than older ones.
There is also a new trend for Canon to refresh lens design in order to reduce production cost, not to improve image quality.
None of these cases will be the last ones we will see.
p.33 #11 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
alundeb wrote:
My take on that Canon statement is that the 6DII is optimized for dynamic range at high ISO. It might even be better than the 5D IV. The 6D DR at high ISO is about equal to the 5D IV, and the slight improvement in the 6D II that cgarcia hinted at may be enough to make it slightly better than the 5D IV.
It increases the possibility of a high ISO improvement to above 50%, but reduces the probability of better low ISO DR than indicated here to 0.00001% at best.
You might be right, but make take on the Canon facebook statement is that the 6DII is in fact the SAME sensor generation as the 5DIV and their own words, "the image quality will be similar to the EOS 5D Mark IV."
So all logic says, based on that statement, that the DR at base ISO should be very close, not necessarily better, to the 5DIV and 80D.
As Kent previous mentioned below, it should be in the same ballpark. Not worse than it once was 5 years ago.
And please don't get me wrong. I do not expect the IQ of the 6DII to be better than it's big brother the 5DIV but it should be better than it's little brother the 80D.
It's going to be very interesting to see how this all boils down in the end.
Does anyone know when the pre-orders will be shipping?
My B&H order says expected availability July 27 but when do they actually ship?
RustyBug wrote:
Good point regarding where the "x-over" points are.
But, when you compare the 6D to the 5D3 & 1DX, the curves are essentially the same.
As such, you would "think" that the curve on the 6D2 would parallel the 5D4 & 1DX II ... with just a bit of difference due to pixel size variance (similar to the 6D / 5D3 / 1DX relationship). That would suggest then, that the 6D2 would have ballpark DR @ base ISO to the 5D4 & 1DX II.
p.33 #12 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Thank you all for the welcoming!
I sent a message to Canon Sweden and just got a reply. I asked them about the dynamic range on the 6D Mk II and they claim that it will be considerably better than the Mk I. He also pointed out that no one outside Canon has got their hands on a camera with final firmware.
p.33 #13 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Here are the results from the two latest mid-ISO CR2s :
File : IMG_9282_0.tiff
CAMERA : EOS 6D Mark II
ISO : 3200
GMAX : 16383
AREA : 203889 pixels
MEAN : 2048.4727
STDDEV : 18.3388
DR : 9.61 EV
File : IMG_9281_0.tiff
CAMERA : EOS 6D Mark II
ISO : 6400
GMAX : 16383
AREA : 203889 pixels
MEAN : 2048.4191
STDDEV : 33.4989
DR : 8.74 EV
As a comparison, here are the results from Rob's sample :
File : ./6D2/IMG_9322_0.tiff
CAMERA : EOS 6D Mark II
ISO : 3200
GMAX : 16383
AREA : 203889 pixels
MEAN : 2048.2617
STDDEV : 18.7929
DR : 9.58 EV
File : ./6D2/IMG_9323_0.tiff
CAMERA : EOS 6D Mark II
ISO : 6400
GMAX : 16383
AREA : 203889 pixels
MEAN : 2048.4983
STDDEV : 34.5353
DR : 8.70 EV
Again, the noise levels (and thus the DR) are matching between the two samples.
p.33 #14 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
TurboJonte wrote:
Thank you all for the welcoming!
I sent a message to Canon Sweden and just got a reply. I asked them about the dynamic range on the 6D Mk II and they claim that it will be considerably better than the Mk I. He also pointed out that no one outside Canon has got their hands on a camera with final firmware.
This is the news I've been waiting to here. Let's hope this is truly the case!
Thank you for sharing this news and welcome to FM!
p.33 #15 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
bootster wrote:
The secret is that Canon wanted to stifle a huge initial pre-order by putting out an inferior camera sample for people to go crazy testing and then pulling their hair out, and their pre-orders for the new camera.
They should have told B&H because I already have their Canon 6D2 ads popping up on YouTube.
First time I have seen advertisements (no doubt there is an cookie on my computer because I shop there and visit their site often) for a camera that isnt available yet.
p.33 #16 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Canon may say what they want about how the 6D II is supposed to perform, but we have seen the evidence and it is not going to change with firmware or production units, sorry.
p.33 #17 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
Could firmware changes make that big of a difference on these numbers? I want to be hopeful, but I'm not finding it.
TurboJonte wrote:
Thank you all for the welcoming!
I sent a message to Canon Sweden and just got a reply. I asked them about the dynamic range on the 6D Mk II and they claim that it will be considerably better than the Mk I. He also pointed out that no one outside Canon has got their hands on a camera with final firmware.
Jul 09, 2017 at 10:36 AM
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p.33 #18 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
lighthound wrote:
This is the news I've been waiting to here. Let's hope this is truly the case!
Thank you for sharing this news and welcome to FM!
A few years ago, a journalist from dpreview asked the some guy from canon about the dynamic range. He said that he does not know about any problems, and in general their cameras have the best dynamic range.
p.33 #19 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
I'm not yet convinced myself but I will not cancel my pre-order at the moment. I specifically asked about base ISO performance. And if he didn't want to tell me the truth he could have given me a bullshit answer but he was quite convincing.
p.33 #20 · Official: Canon Announces the EOS 6D Mark II
I'm on a "wait and see" pattern here. I certainly don't need it, and unless it offers me something that the 5D4 doesn't have (besides a swivel screen and less weight), then I'm not going to jump on it. And by something, I mean DR and other sensor-related aspects.
ray: ) response to the the prospect of the unimproved IQ of the 6D2 is being felt much more strongly than the "meh" of minor or modest improvements that get labeled as "not class leading" or "not innovative". Not class leading, not expected. Not innovative, not expected. Not improved IQ, not expected. The first two seem to be business as usual as "meh". The (current info) one seems to be NOT business as usual and has some eyes popping wide open for a lot of folks ... some seemingly popping right out of their head. 