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Archive 2017 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX

  
 
akpo.ca
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p.6 #1 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Steve Spencer wrote:
This statement is not at all universally true. I am quite happy with my used/vintage MF lenses and a number of them cannot only rival but even surpass modern 35mm lenses.


It's a generalization and yes, it's true. The best vintage lenses cannot perform against today's best lenses.

A $400 135/2.0 modern day optic will wipe the floors with any vintage lens at any f/stop. A Sigma Art 85/1.4 or Otus 85/1.4 will wipe the floor with any vintage 85 in regards to sharpness, correction, distortion, etc. Vintage lenses have a place in the rendering capabilities, swirling for petzval/biotar, but if you're comparing sharpness/correction/fringing then vintage lenses will fall short. Especially vintage medium format lenses.

Sure, your experiences may be different and vintage lens IQ may work for your needs and standards, but do a quick comparison. Any vintage 35/1.4s that match a Sigma Art 35/1.4, Canon 35/1.4Lii or a Milvus 35/1.4?



Aug 19, 2017 at 01:24 PM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #2 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Here's a few other generalizations:

- Smaller format lenses are made to be sharper than lenses made for larger formats
- Modern optics are sharper/perform better for digital sensors because of advancements in optical design, computational optical design, designed for less fringing with digital sensors, are made to have a flatter plane of focus, and throughout the decades tolerances have gone up in regards to lens/optical de-centering.

If you have any vintage optics that rival today's renowned optics, please tell me what they are. I have several Bokina 90/2.5s that were regarded to be the sharpest of the film era, but compare it to a decent modern lens they'll fall short; i.e. 135/2.0 on a GFX (~105mm), ext. tubes for macro.



Aug 19, 2017 at 01:31 PM
Pavel
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p.6 #3 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


akpo.ca wrote:
It's a generalization and yes, it's true. The best vintage lenses cannot perform against today's best lenses.

A $400 135/2.0 modern day optic will wipe the floors with any vintage lens at any f/stop. A Sigma Art 85/1.4 or Otus 85/1.4 will wipe the floor with any vintage 85 in regards to sharpness, correction, distortion, etc. Vintage lenses have a place in the rendering capabilities, swirling for petzval/biotar, but if you're comparing sharpness/correction/fringing then vintage lenses will fall short. Especially vintage medium format lenses.

Sure, your experiences may be different and vintage lens IQ may work for your needs and standards, but
...Show more

I don't agree at all. But then I'm not a numbers only guy and appreciate the end results, rather than someones narrow idea of what is best, which typically boils down to some imacon test on pure resolution and sharpness number.

It's the "look" and "feel" of the image that the lens delivers that some of us consider "best" and todays modern 35 mm lenses are often clinical though sharp and one looks much like another within the same brand often. Sure, they deliver sharp contrasty images. I'm starting to consider many fine lenses to be a bit boring and "borg like" in their excellence.

Variety and character is definitely a valuable attribute to the idea of "best" to many of us. That of course is on top of the fact that some MF lenses (a few of my old Mamiya RZ lenses come to mind) put 90% of modern SLR optics in their place. 35mm designs are built to a poor mans price point often, lets not forget.

And if some don't get the benefits of the larger Fuji medium format sensor, I always marvel how at the same time so many who don't - feel that a smaller sensor than their choice is somehow inferior. It's all just a personal point on a continuum.

I've currently got M43 sensor size, 1.5 crop sensor and FF sensors. I often wonder why FF advocates don't lust about the better, sharper lenses in M43 with their automatic software correction which works so well. FF is nothing special, just different. In one direction there are the advantages in going down in sensor size, and not just in the size and weight and in the other there are advantages in going upwards. Disadvantages also, of course.

If tomorrow's M43 sensors of say 60 megapixels don't destroy the case for using FF for some, then a high megapixel FF certainly does not obviate the benefits of larger than FF 35, by the same logic. Mostly what you get is more diffraction. People like to ignore that little purple elephant in the middle of the room - don't they.

Stare down the opening of the GFX and then onto a 35mm sensor. The difference is more than some here like to imagine. It's not all that long ago where the 1.3 crop was considered a huge improvement over the 1.6 in Canon land as I recall.




Aug 19, 2017 at 02:31 PM
Pavel
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p.6 #4 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


akpo.ca wrote:
Here's a few other generalizations:

- Smaller format lenses are made to be sharper than lenses made for larger formats
- Modern optics are sharper/perform better for digital sensors because of advancements in optical design, computational optical design, designed for less fringing with digital sensors, are made to have a flatter plane of focus, and throughout the decades tolerances have gone up in regards to lens/optical de-centering.

If you have any vintage optics that rival today's renowned optics, please tell me what they are. I have several Bokina 90/2.5s that were regarded to be the sharpest of the film era, but compare it
...Show more

Here are a few more "generalization" for your list:

- "Modern digital photographers are programmed to worry about camera and lens statistic to the detriment of the Art of their photography, mostly due to the fact that they don't know how to put "art" onto a chart. This has been known to waste many hours on discussion boards as beauty is a complex subject not well suited to deconstructionist tendencies.
Older photographers know that the real best debates are to be had about which developer and film combination is the "best" ... and lately ... if their stuff still exists."

- "The more things change the more they stay the same, but the arguments are still fun"



Aug 19, 2017 at 02:41 PM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #5 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


My generalizations are for lenses, not regarding photographers lol. Lots of digital and film photographers these days so it's not really fair to say who's worrying about what


Aug 19, 2017 at 02:55 PM
Alex Phan
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p.6 #6 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


gdanmitchell wrote:
Something perplexes me about the attempts to adapt FF lenses to the GFX.

confused.


As the GFX owner myself, it is more of alternative. Since GFX is so new, there is not many native lens available. There are so many other lenses out there that can fit nicely with the GFX. Some that even cost you only $40 (minolta 45mm for example)

If you looking back to sony FE system. When they first release, not so many lenses. Now with all the G Master lenses release, i don't think anyone else would want to adapt non native lens to the new A9 anymore. Give the GFX few more years, you will see the adapting lens trend will fade away.



Aug 19, 2017 at 02:59 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #7 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


akpo.ca wrote:
It's a generalization and yes, it's true. The best vintage lenses cannot perform against today's best lenses.

A $400 135/2.0 modern day optic will wipe the floors with any vintage lens at any f/stop. A Sigma Art 85/1.4 or Otus 85/1.4 will wipe the floor with any vintage 85 in regards to sharpness, correction, distortion, etc. Vintage lenses have a place in the rendering capabilities, swirling for petzval/biotar, but if you're comparing sharpness/correction/fringing then vintage lenses will fall short. Especially vintage medium format lenses.

Sure, your experiences may be different and vintage lens IQ may work for your needs and standards, but
...Show more

Well, it is a generalization that is true in some cases and not in other cases. Even for 35mm there are some excellent older lenses, (e.g., the Leica R 280 f/4 APO, the Leica R 100 f/2.8 APO macro; the Zeiss C/Y 21mm f/2.8) that at least rival their modern equivalents. I have several older lenses that are excellent and you can see this in the MTFs as well as the shots. If you saw the examples I posted earlier in this thread the Hasselblad HCD 24 f/4.8 on the GFX stands up very well to the Zeiss Loxia 21 f/2.8 on the Sony A7r II. That is to be expected based on the MTF. Also the Hasselblad CFE IF 40 f/4 is a fantastic lens and stands up to the modern equivalents quite well too. I also have a Contax 645 120mm f/4 APO macro, that I am pretty sure will compete very well with anything modern and the MTFs for that lens are quite spectacular. Maybe just one more example, however, look at John Blacks review of the Mamiya 200 f/2.8 APO at Pebble Place. It is not an expensive lens, and I think you will see that it will compete very well with your 135 f/2 modern 35mm lens. I dare say, my guess is that the Mamiya will win that competition with equal sharpness and a bit better bokeh. And while we are talking about bokeh, one very nice feature of MF lenses on the GFX is that even if they only cover 645 film, out of focus highlight show almost no cat's eye effect. I love the rendering of the Hasselblad HC 100 f/2.2. It has beautiful bokeh with no onion rings, no harshness, and no cat's eyes and with the leaf shutter quite round highlights at all apertures. It also has flash sync to 1/800. Yes, it does have some bokeh fringing, so it isn't perfect, but it is a lovely lens and you would be hard pressed to find an 35mm lens that comes close. The Leica M 75 f/1.4 would be the closest. Oh, and it is very sharp stopped down to f/4 or so and the MTFs bear this out as well.
So, while I agree that many older MF lenses will not hold up to the resolution demand of the GFX and other modern digital cameras, a number of such lenses do and your generalization is an overgeneralization, in my view and much too much of an oversimplification.



Aug 19, 2017 at 03:28 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #8 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


akpo.ca wrote:
Here's a few other generalizations:

- Smaller format lenses are made to be sharper than lenses made for larger formats
- Modern optics are sharper/perform better for digital sensors because of advancements in optical design, computational optical design, designed for less fringing with digital sensors, are made to have a flatter plane of focus, and throughout the decades tolerances have gone up in regards to lens/optical de-centering.

If you have any vintage optics that rival today's renowned optics, please tell me what they are. I have several Bokina 90/2.5s that were regarded to be the sharpest of the film era, but compare it
...Show more

And these too are overgeneralization. True in some cases and not in others.The Bokina, although a very nice lens and an excellent budget option is nowhere near the paragon of the film era. I listed several excellent MF lenses above. Let me list some others: Pentax 67 75 f/2.8 Asph; Hasselblad CF 180 f/4; Hasselblad CFE 250 f/5.6 SuperAcromat; Hasselblad CFE 350 f/5.6 SuperAcromat; Pentax 645 120mm f/4 Macro; Mamiya RZ 55 f/4; and then if you want the real paragon of performance you can mount large format lenses on the GFX. Even though it is for an even larger format, go look at the MTFs for the Rodentstock 100 f/5.6 Digaron-S; they are simply stunning and wipe the pants off any 35mm lens, and it has zero distortion and APO correction much better than any Otus lens. Note when you look at these MTFs they post 10, 20, 40, and 80 lp/mm. This lens has that resolution and that correction despite having a 70mm image circle. So, again your generalizations are much to much of a simplification, IMO.



Aug 19, 2017 at 03:48 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #9 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


gdanmitchell wrote:
Agree. For some work I use a Pentax 80-160mm 645 lens on a TS adapter on my FF body — a fine lens, for sure.

As with any category of lenses – including FF lenses adapted to miniMF — some are better and/or more/less appropriate than others

Regarding a different post and as to aspect ratio, my preference is for the 4:3 ratio of miniMF, and I most often crop my FF images to that format, giving up something approximately 10+% of pixels. Regarding things like a square crop on miniMF systems like the GFX, I can imagine that a very small percentage
...Show more

Dan,

I am not sure that a test done in a better way might not show results that could be seen, but I think that is beside the point. I agree that the increase in resolution and even dynamic range and color are small. If that is what you are after, then you will be paying a lot more for some pretty small gains. I personally would not recommend the system to somebody who only wants to shoot landscapes. For me, I appreciate the small increase in landscape shooting, but it is for portraits and the range and flexibility of the lenses, and tilt/shift shooting with the Cambo Actus that sold the system for me. I think both those areas have some clear advantages that cannot be matched with 35mm. Not that you can't do those things well with 35mm--you of course can--but there are some abilities (like leaf shutter lenses, and flexibility in lens choice and ability to apply title and shifts) that set the GFX apart. I am happy I got the camera, but I realize it isn't for everyone and probably isn't even for very many people at all.



Aug 19, 2017 at 03:55 PM
rdeloe
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p.6 #10 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


I've read or heard this claim many times before. It simply doesn't make sense to me! Take the example of two Pentax lenses:
* SMC Pentax-A 645 35mm f/3.5
* SMC Pentax-A 35mm f/2.8

https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/data/12/SMC_Pentax-A_645_35mm_F35.jpg
https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/data/28/IMGP1538.JPG

The physical design elements are so similar that if you'd used one, the other would be completely familiar.

Now I'm trying to imagine the lens designers at Pentax saying "Let's make the 645 lens -- which costs a ton more and is made for demanding professional photographers -- less sharp than the one for 35mm film and consumers, because the 645 lens is for medium format."

That seems inconceivable to me. I'd love to see a link or reference to a source that backs this up (or refutes it) one way or the other.

akpo.ca wrote:
Here's a few other generalizations:

- Smaller format lenses are made to be sharper than lenses made for larger formats






Aug 19, 2017 at 04:40 PM
rdeloe
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p.6 #11 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


This is the kind of insight I was looking for (i.e., don't get it just for the resolution). Cheers.

P.S. Tilting and shifting can be done to good effect on APS-C sensors too! http://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Tiltshift-on-APSC
...but obviously not with the same amount of flexibility as with a Cambo Actus.

Mind you I've just been out again with my Canon FD 35/2.8 TS which resides on a Fotodiox FD-X shift adapter. I can now tilt independently from the direction of shift on my X-T2, and I can shift +/-10mm in two directions at the same time. I can't tilt and swing simultaneously, but that's a movement I didn't use much even with my view camera.


Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not sure that a test done in a better way might not show results that could be seen, but I think that is beside the point. I agree that the increase in resolution and even dynamic range and color are small. If that is what you are after, then you will be paying a lot more for some pretty small gains. I personally would not recommend the system to somebody who only wants to shoot landscapes. For me, I appreciate the small increase in landscape shooting, but it is for portraits and the range and flexibility of
...Show more




Aug 19, 2017 at 04:46 PM
Pavel
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p.6 #12 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Steve Spencer wrote:
Dan,

I am not sure that a test done in a better way might not show results that could be seen, but I think that is beside the point. I agree that the increase in resolution and even dynamic range and color are small. If that is what you are after, then you will be paying a lot more for some pretty small gains. I personally would not recommend the system to somebody who only wants to shoot landscapes. For me, I appreciate the small increase in landscape shooting, but it is for portraits and the range and flexibility of
...Show more

Thats the big question for me and I'm glad to hear you speak of it - the very small incremental gains. I only got to play with the GFX a while and was really impressed with the handling of it and the way little details clicked with me, such as the button layouts, but of course when considering spending such a large amount of money, one starts to wonder what one will get at the end of the day on the print.

The problem for me is that I haven't printed at all like I always thought I would. Only in the darkroom, where it was the fun of the process. The prints are in piles in drawers, mostly. Numbers aside, how noticeable and obvious the gains I wonder. I suspect, just as you said - not much. And I never print over 11x14.



Aug 19, 2017 at 05:40 PM
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p.6 #13 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


I love using FF lenses on my GFX. As good as Fuji lenses are, I just love the variety and options that I can get with FF lenses. Not all of them are perfect fit for GFX but many of them offer excellent alternatives. For example, Leica 80/1.4R, while I love its rendition on FF sensor, at f1.4, it is really quite soft. It sharpens up very nicely at f2-f2.8 but you lose some of that nice rendering at f1.4 . On GFX, I can step down to f2 to sharpen up the in focus area a bit more but not really losing out much in term of oof area. In the right setting, at f1.4, it also will give a very nice render that I cannot get with FF format either. Sticking Noctilux 50/.95 on it was always interesting. I tend not to crop very much and try to work the vignette into the pictures that I take. If vignette bother me, I rather switches lenses unless I plan to go to 4:5, 1:1 ratio anyhow.
Lately, I play quite a bit with Leica M 35/1.4AA with GFX and I get some interesting result. It is inferior to some modern lenses in certain way but its look is not neccessarily worse depending on what you are trying to achieve. Even if resolution is inferior, sharpness is not uniform across the frame, there is some vignette in the corner, that does not neccessarily imply that the picture is bad always.



Aug 19, 2017 at 06:05 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.6 #14 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Steve Spencer wrote:
Dan,

I am not sure that a test done in a better way might not show results that could be seen, but I think that is beside the point. I agree that the increase in resolution and even dynamic range and color are small. If that is what you are after, then you will be paying a lot more for some pretty small gains. I personally would not recommend the system to somebody who only wants to shoot landscapes. For me, I appreciate the small increase in landscape shooting, but it is for portraits and the range and flexibility of
...Show more

Two points.

First, I appreciate your point that the appeal will be different for different photographers doing different kinds of work. For example, in my case, for my landscape photography (though not for my street and travel photography) I often make use of long focal lengths — it is an element of my style. I would have to make some tremendous compromises in order to switch to the miniMF systems for that reason... and my photography would suffer. But for someone who doesn't have that need — for example someone well served by the existing Fujifilm lenses (or some of the third party MF lenses) — the appeal would be different.

Second, it is hard to imagine a meaningful test done in a better way. This was done by a person who had every reason to believe in the superiority of the 80MP Phase One system, into which he had invested a lot of money and a number of years of his photography. And he is — you'll just have to trust me on this (or PM me if you want to know a name) — a master printer, literally among the best today. The examples he shared incorporated his printing skills and, as such, provide an excellent real world test of what these systems are capable of.

Take care,

Dan



Aug 19, 2017 at 10:11 PM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #15 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Steve Spencer wrote:
And these too are overgeneralization. True in some cases and not in others.The Bokina, although a very nice lens and an excellent budget option is nowhere near the paragon of the film era. I listed several excellent MF lenses above. Let me list some others: Pentax 67 75 f/2.8 Asph; Hasselblad CF 180 f/4; Hasselblad CFE 250 f/5.6 SuperAcromat; Hasselblad CFE 350 f/5.6 SuperAcromat; Pentax 645 120mm f/4 Macro; Mamiya RZ 55 f/4; and then if you want the real paragon of performance you can mount large format lenses on the GFX. Even though it is for an even
...Show more

I have many of the lenses you're talking about, they come nowhere near modern lenses in terms of optical design. The 120/4FA is a heavy, non-apochromatic lens, and much softer than my $400 135/2 even if my 135 is shot wide open and the FA is stopped down to 5.6-8.0. Mama RZ 55/4, Pentax 6x7 75/2.8 Apsh, all get trounced by the recent Fuji 63/2.8. As for the Rodenstock 100/5.6, have you even compared it to the Otus yet? I'd love to see your comparisons. My Otus gives me moire at infinity focus wide open on the GFX. For a 44x33mm sensor, you don't really need large format lenses, nor are they better performance. Larger coverage lenses have less resolution (lp/mm) because simply they were made for larger films that do not have the dense pixels found on modern digital sensors.

Let me know if you want to buy my "superior" pentax 645 120/4 macros. I have two.



Aug 20, 2017 at 07:49 AM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #16 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


rdeloe wrote:
I've read or heard this claim many times before. It simply doesn't make sense to me! Take the example of two Pentax lenses:
* SMC Pentax-A 645 35mm f/3.5
* SMC Pentax-A 35mm f/2.8

https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/data/12/SMC_Pentax-A_645_35mm_F35.jpg
https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/data/28/IMGP1538.jpg

The physical design elements are so similar that if you'd used one, the other would be completely familiar.

Now I'm trying to imagine the lens designers at Pentax saying "Let's make the 645 lens -- which costs a ton more and is made for demanding professional photographers -- less sharp than the one for 35mm film and consumers, because the 645 lens is for medium format."

That seems inconceivable to
...Show more

The smaller film formats are more demanding on resolution per square area than larger formats. Larger formats do not require lenses to be designed for such extreme resolution for a small area. The design requirements are different; medium format and large format lenses tend to go for image quality across the entire frame rather than for a limited area.

Therefore the generalization is that c-mount, industrial machine vision and m4/3 lenses are sharper and can resolve a higher lp/mm for the centre of the image circle compared to apsc lenses, which are sharper for their respective formats when compared to 35mm full frame lenses, which are sharper compared to 645/66/67/69 lenses, which are sharper compared to 3x4, 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 lenses. The point here is that although a smaller format lens will tend to be sharper, sometimes they are over-designed and cover a larger area quite nicely; that is to say the sharpness goes to the edge of the image circle. Some 35mm lenses will cover 44x33mm with amazing IQ to the edges wide open.

Recently developed lenses tend to be of smaller formats too, so they gain the advantage of optical advancements and higher requirements for digital sensors.

One can see this from MTF charts and if you want comparisons. I don't have a comparison between the two Pentax 35s, but if you have them both you can do it yourself. De-centering has a larger factor in softening up a corner or two when using larger formats, so take that into account.



Aug 20, 2017 at 08:15 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #17 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


akpo.ca wrote:
I have many of the lenses you're talking about, they come nowhere near modern lenses in terms of optical design. The 120/4FA is a heavy, non-apochromatic lens, and much softer than my $400 135/2 even if my 135 is shot wide open and the FA is stopped down to 5.6-8.0. Mama RZ 55/4, Pentax 6x7 75/2.8 Apsh, all get trounced by the recent Fuji 63/2.8. As for the Rodenstock 100/5.6, have you even compared it to the Otus yet? I'd love to see your comparisons. My Otus gives me moire at infinity focus wide open on the GFX. For a
...Show more

Well, I don't want your Pentax 120 f/4 because I have the even better Contax 645 120 f/4 APO. What I said would trounce your 135 f/2 was the Mamiya 200 f/2.8 APO and in that comparison you will see the difference. Hey, if you can read MTF charts and accept them as a good measure of sharpness then you would realize already that you are not correct. If you can't you will have to wait until people do tests. I have done one already in this thread and that one already refutes your massive over generalization, but I suspect you are just another guy on the internet who makes unsubstantiated statements that can't be backed up and then will not back down even when it is clear they are wrong. I will keep adding tests as I have time, but the evidence is already there.



Aug 20, 2017 at 08:26 AM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #18 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Steve Spencer wrote:
Well, I don't want your Pentax 120 f/4 because I have the even better Contax 645 120 f/4 APO. What I said would trounce your 135 f/2 was the Mamiya 200 f/2.8 APO and in that comparison you will see the difference. Hey, if you can read MTF charts and accept them as a good measure of sharpness then you would realize already that you are not correct. If you can't you will have to wait until people do tests. I have done one already in this thread and that one already refutes your massive over generalization, but I
...Show more

Obviously 200mm and 135mm are very different lenses, on the same camera. I don't know why you would be comparing the two? 120mm f/4 (a 1:1 macro, ok cool) and a 135/2 comparison would be fairer...

Let me know if you have full resolution jpgs of the 200/2.8 or 120/4 apo/fa to enlighten us with. I have 135/2 full resolution gfx samples to show you. Wide open. Infinity focus or portrait distance. Let me know when you are ready.



Aug 20, 2017 at 08:34 AM
Luvwine
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p.6 #19 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Re modern lenses trouncing older ones, show me a modern lens that beats the Leica R 280/4 apo or the Leica R 180/2.8 apo. I suspect there are none, but certainly the point that modern optics usually provide advances over older ones is usually true--just not always. Another might be the Zeiss VS 100-300. Even the new Sony GM 100-400 does not really beat the older Zeiss across the frame at common apertures.


Aug 20, 2017 at 08:55 AM
akpo.ca
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p.6 #20 · Adapting Lenses to the Fuji GFX


Luvwine wrote:
Re modern lenses trouncing older ones, show me a modern lens that beats the Leica R 280/4 apo or the Leica R 180/2.8 apo. I suspect there are none, but certainly the point that modern optics usually provide advances over older ones is usually true--just not always. Another might be the Zeiss VS 100-300. Even the new Sony GM 100-400 does not really beat the older Zeiss across the frame at common apertures.


Any modern 300/2.8 from Canikon. All of these lenses should cover 44x33mm quite well too



Aug 20, 2017 at 09:10 AM
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