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Archive 2016 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action

  
 
uhoh7
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p.7 #1 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
i realize now you are asking about counteracting the AWB bias you entered on your A7mv2. yes, setting them both to daylight should give them the same color settings and any differences should be due to the coverglass. i don't really think this is terribly useful though, of course they will have different color biases. i'm more interested in IR contamination and whether colors can look good with a simple white balance correction.


TY so much for that.

I know what you guys are saying about gray cards etc. But god know what a mess I will make of color editing with all the variables which are obviously in play with the different ways these two IR filters are letting through colors.

I'm not used to such taxing demands

The M9 may not please everybody, but it's usually very very simple for me to get something I like. So before I even try dealing with this UT in color seriously, I really want to know: what exactly is it doing different to the V2? I hope I can use that when I try to fine tune later and maybe do a real profile. Remember, just pm for RAWs with file name, if anybody is impatient.


Kolari V2 and UT Prototype by unoh7,M9 75 Lux

OK, Steve I guess there is another clue besides the duct tape and thumb grip.....

Where is my sharpie?





Feb 19, 2017 at 07:56 PM
sebboh
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p.7 #2 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


uhoh7 wrote:
I know what you guys are saying about gray cards etc. But god know what a mess I will make of color editing with all the variables which are obviously in play with the different ways these two IR filters are letting through colors.


there's no extra variables, it's just as easy as setting WB to "daylight". just take a picture like your m9 image above and use the WB eyedropper in LR to click on the same part of the white paper in the pictures from both cameras. it will give us much better info on the sensor performance.

i'm impatient, i'll take some raws btw...



Feb 19, 2017 at 09:59 PM
uhoh7
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p.7 #3 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


sebboh wrote:
there's no extra variables, it's just as easy as setting WB to "daylight". just take a picture like your m9 image above and use the WB eyedropper in LR to click on the same part of the white paper in the pictures from both cameras. it will give us much better info on the sensor performance.

i'm impatient, i'll take some raws btw...


RGR I will try that
I'll get you some files soon as I have a chance.

Meanwhile CV21

V2_CV21_f11 by unoh7, on Flickr

So above, edited, is CV21/4, the lens which caused Michael to get Kolari going on a A7 mod in the first place, at F/11 on the V2. Nico uses F11 alot, and gets the best results I've seen with this lens on digital, using M of course.

Color shift plainly visible, as it does on M9 without profile. But frankly, I didn't think it did this well on the v2, to be honest.

I'm not sure how much better it is on the UT, it might not be as good even, but it's possible colorshift is lessened


UT_CV21_f11 by unoh7, Little or no PP.

Unedited V2 at F11:

V2_CV21_f11 by unoh7, on Flickr
V2 corner F/11

V2_CV21_f11-2 by unoh7, on Flickr
UT same:

UT_CV21_f11-4 by unoh7, on Flickr

These have been brightened because the lens vignettes so much, which may ruin the comparison, I could not decide which was better, for sure, below one more UT at F11 in case there was some issue in the first:

UT_CV21_f11-2 by unoh7, on Flickr

And UT at F8:

UT_CV21_f8-3 by unoh7, on Flickr

I plan a complete retest with bright light when possible. Focus is hardest with a 21, because the A7 original EVF has some noise in mag. I was surprised there was not more difference, as was obvious with the 35s

Anyway I was confused by the preliminary CV 21 shots, and I can't decide on the limited observation so far if the UT is making it better.

It's worth noting that the SEM 18 is already equal in the corner to M240 with V2, according to Kasson and Lloyd, so that's an example of a lens which would not be expected to get any better, perhaps. But the color shifting 21 Skopar is a close surprise to me.



Feb 20, 2017 at 02:25 AM
uhoh7
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p.7 #4 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Kolari UT "soft launch" likely

So, Illija is liking the results. Even though we have limited testing and don't fully understand the performance, he is confident enough to being seriously considering a soft launch in the very short term. The glass is aprox .2mm, so cleaning may require special care, he is looking into that right now.

Basically he is feeling that people who are asking for V2 now should have this option. My input was: make sure they know there is no way we can have a full picture so early, but if they don't mind that...

I do think the UT is shooting nice on the edges as seen in the 2 35s, at least a full stop ahead with a superior bottomline at f/11. I just have not got a handle on color and IR, because I'm buried this week and can't get after it as I would wish. But if there is IR it's not jumping out so far. There may be other unforseen issues. Kolari had no problem replacing the V1 and V3 for me, so that makes me feel less guilty that I've missed something: certainly I have, but those misses may also be positive ones.

So if anyone is impatient with my snowbound pace of testing, you can contact Kolari, and I hope you will share your results

Edited on Feb 22, 2017 at 01:46 AM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2017 at 12:18 AM
uhoh7
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p.7 #5 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Who is aware of "ColorLock" filter stacks?

http://www.reynardcorp.com/colorlock.html

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-50/issue-11/features/optical-filters-filter-stacks-transmit-wide-angle-incident-light-without-shifting-wavelength.html

My very helpful M9 expert who detected Leica is using BG55 for the new M9 replacement of S8612, sent me those





Feb 22, 2017 at 12:28 AM
uhoh7
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p.7 #6 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Another review of NK mod performance vs M9 and M240

In Kasson's methodical testing with a series of M lenses: one thing seemed clear to me: the "harder" the lens, the bigger the gab between the M240 and A7.kolariv2. As noted, the SEM 18 was equal, but that was very much an outlier. SEM24, ZM35/2, 21/2.8 pre-asph(i think), the M240 was well ahead, though of course the V2 utterly killed the stock A7ii(which Kasson used in both) with the same lenses.

So in trying to access how effective the NK mod in Sam Lee and Astroman's camera really is, I was on the lookout for a classic. If the M240 could shoot it well, then the best which could be shown would be the NK was "as good", in unprofiled performance. So I hunted for common, good lenses, which were not good on digital M. The ZM21/4.5 came up again and again. The least distortion ever seen in a 21 by many experienced photographers and very high performance on film has made this lens a legend. It was so good many wanted to use it with M9 and M240. The howling was such, that its very easy to find many discussions of the problems.

Then I suddenly noticed Sam actually had one mounted in one of his stream photos. He is often trying very unusual lenses. I begged him to do some tests for us. Now I did not explain about the diagonal etiquette which has evolved here, but that very telling method is not the only way to see anything.

Anyway, once Sam had a number of sample F/5.6 shots I sent them to the two most experienced users of the ZM21/4.5 on M9 and M240 I could find. Dante and MarkP (at LUF), both of whom used cornerfix for quite some time, but both who eventually gave up. You can see Dante's reaction up above few pages ago.

MarkP recently got back to me, after he finally had time to really look:

"So if these are uncorrected in PP, then your modified sensor is indeed most impressive. Not only is there no significant red-dege, there appears as best as I can tell on these images to be no significant corner smearing. Especially as the lens' nodal point is so close to the sensor.

The 4.5/21 ZM C-Biogon is a fabulous lens with excellent resolution and minimal distortion in a compact and relatively cheap package. I initially bought it as a light companion to my 21 Summilux. However, the red edging really bothered me after a while. Even if used for B&W conversions there were still tonal irregularities that needed correction and almost always left some 'damage' to the final file.

When I finally bought a 21 SEM I initially kept the 21 Biogon. On further comparison the 21 Biogon really didn't compare to the 21 SEM in resolution, 3D rendering, etc. I then sold on the lens.

Kind regards,
Mark"


Sam's NK modded A7rii is beating the M240 and M9 with the ZM 21/4.5, which has a chief ray angle of 44.4 degrees, with or without any M in-camera profile, in the eyes of people who know the lens very well, and not by a small margin. Anyone whose jaw does not drop at this either doesn't care or doesn't want to know.

I post my own edit of Sam's RAW shot at 5.6:

Testshot by Charlie Webster, on Flickr

As Sam has noted many times, his .7mm is a bit weird in WB, but Astroman's STC .85mm is very near to the stock Sony WB. The shot is at infinity, so I was gasping at the 44 degree left edge. I challenge anyone to show better performance from any M, including M10, with the Zeiss Biogon ZM 21/4.5 at f//5.6 (let alone the Kolari V2 which has never beaten the M240 with ANY lens).

At some point I hope we will see it on the UT Kolari. Sam has set a very high bar with his remarkable coverglassless mod by NK of Taiwan



Feb 22, 2017 at 01:20 AM
uhoh7
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p.7 #7 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Kolari UT shots with 28 cron
I took the 28 cron and new Ultra-thin .2mm Kolari on some house calls today. Derek was curious


UT_28cron_F4_or_faster by unoh7, on Flickr
Above, focus is well before infinity. Note lower corners.


UT_28cronWO by unoh7, on Flickr
WO details at the edge, though such a frame may mask FC.


UT_28cron_F8+ by unoh7, on Flickr


UT_28cron_F8+ by unoh7, on Flickr


UT_28cron by unoh7, on Flickr

It seems to work.
a few more in here



Feb 24, 2017 at 09:50 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #8 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I put the question to Kolari Vision via e-mail, but I thought I'd ask it here as well...

Would we get the same (or better) uptick in corner performance using a full-spectrum converted camera (obviously with hot-mirror filters in front, like MaxMax's XNite-CC2) and have fewer color/contamination issues?



Feb 25, 2017 at 02:11 PM
artur5
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p.7 #9 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


I asked Kolari almost the same question time ago. If I recall correctly, they told me that the clear glass used for full spectrum conversions (or the filter for two spectrums), is thicker than those used for Sony A7x special mod. Also, there's the non trivial matter of the sheet of glass glued to the sensor that Kolari doesn't removes, which adds to the total stack thickness. All summed up, I don’t think that a full spectrum conversion would be that good for having the best performance from RF wides. Anyway, technology changes fast (see that new ultra thin filter..) and it's been quite a while since I asked Kolari, so let's see what they answer to you now.


Feb 25, 2017 at 03:47 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #10 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


The full spectrum and two-spectrum are as thin as the current v2 mod. I asked about the possibility of getting a full-spectrum conversion as thin as the v4 but haven't heard back yet.




Feb 25, 2017 at 04:08 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #11 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


So in discussions with Kolari, they mentioned they'd done a "naked sensor" conversion, so just taking the away the hot mirror and not replacing it with the thinner quartz filter for full-spectrum or two-spectrum, on an a7rII that was very successful. I asked about downsides, like cleaning, IBIS, etc., and this was the response.

"It's still possible to clean the sensor like normal, and IBIS still works. The biggest drawback is that if you scratch the sensor, you scratch the actual sensor, not a protective filter."

I'm pretty careful with my cleanings and have never scratched the protective filter, so I don't think I'm any more likely to scratch the protective glass on the sensor. So here's what I'm thinking.

Pros:
1. You wind up with a full-spectrum camera. That can be useful for all sorts of things with different filters.
2. The downsides to using hot mirror filters, rather than the UV/IR cut filters, to correct color seem to be fairly minimal. I've read that people with converted NEX cameras haven't had a problem with white balance using MaxMax's filters when they want a visible light shot. You also don't run into any problems using UWA lenses.
3. I can have Kolari calibrate focus to my ZM 18 and Hawk's and that should be good for all of my m-mount lenses.
4. Short of going the "extreme" conversion route, this is as thin as the stack's going to get.
5. It's $200 cheaper than the v2 conversion.
6. I don't have to open up my lenses to remove any shims.

Cons:
1. Expense. The conversion's cheaper, but I've got a lot of lenses. Even if I only start out with the M-mounts and hot mirror, that's five different filter sizes on eight lenses of different focal lengths. Still, it'd be about the same for PCX lenses for all of them, and this has the potential to improve all my adapted lenses. IR-pass filters will have to come later.
2. I'd have to sell off the two PCX lenses I've already ordered, along with a set of Proxars. That shouldn't be too difficult for at least the 5m (the one that works with the ZM 35/1.4). The 1m... we'll see.
3. Probably not the best solution for native-mount lenses.
4. I'm also thinking the teles and super-teles will get their own stock a7rII, so that's another expense.

Am I missing anything?





Feb 25, 2017 at 11:13 PM
samlee.hk
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p.7 #12 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Share some GR21/3.5 LTM w A7RII (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) + M240 Testing From my Taiwan net-friend w NK mod

M240 + GR21/3.5 LTM , LR to jpeg Shadows +40, Vignetting amount +4



A7RII (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) + GR21/3.5 LTM , LR to jpeg Shadows +40, Vignetting amount +4



For the whole set testing : GR21/3.5 LTM + M240 +A7RII mod Testing

There are another VM21/1.8 Testing with A7RII(removed Glass +0.85) + M9
VM 21mm F1.8 Testing



Share Some VM21/4 LTM w A7II (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) from my Macau Net-Friend w NK mod

@F4


See more : @F5.6 @F8 @F11 @F16

Share my friend Astroman colour / WB Testing w A7RII (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) Direct Jpeg from Camera


Sony A7R2 0.85
F8
ISO200
AWB / A+1
+0.3EV
Standard Color / Sharp +1 / Sat +1 / Contast +1
Full size

Sony A7R2 0.85 + Contarex 55 f/1.4

F8
ISO200
AWB
+0.3EV
Standard Color / Sharp +1 / Sat +1 / Contast +1


Full Size

Sony A7R2 0.85

F8
ISO200
AWB / A+1 / G+1
+0.3EV
Standard Color / Sharp +1 / Sat +1 / Contast +1


Full Size

Nikon D750 + Contarex 55 f/1.4

F8
ISO200
AWB
+0.3EV
Standard Color / Sharp +1 / Sat +1




Feb 26, 2017 at 02:56 AM
artur5
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p.7 #13 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


freaklikeme wrote:
So in discussions with Kolari, they mentioned they'd done a "naked sensor" conversion, so just taking the away the hot mirror and not replacing it with the thinner quartz filter for full-spectrum or two-spectrum, on an a7rII that was very successful. I asked about downsides, like cleaning, IBIS, etc., and this was the response.

"It's still possible to clean the sensor like normal, and IBIS still works. The biggest drawback is that if you scratch the sensor, you scratch the actual sensor, not a protective filter."

I'm pretty careful with my cleanings and have never scratched the protective filter, so I don't
...Show more

Interesting post, for sure. On further thoughts, Kolari offers also a 'naked' conversion - i.e. removing all the filters. Now, in Sony A7x cameras, we know that a last sheet of glass glued to the sensor isn't removed by Kolari (unlike the Taiwan mod ). Thus, the sensor itself wouldn't be totally exposed and it will be possible to clean it with the usual procedures, although if you scratch that protective glass, it means replacing the whole sensor. A bit risky, but it would be the ultimate mod. We'd have a super versatile camera able to shoot IR, normal light or full spectrum, just adding a filter on the lens. Last but non least, with only a thin sheet of glass over the sensor, perfect also for use with wideangle RF lenses. Expensive solution though; apart from the cost of the conversion, it needs at least a couple of filters (IR and hot-mirror) for each thread size and those aren't cheap.




Feb 26, 2017 at 08:12 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.7 #14 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Interesting comparison but the modified camera's shots appear to be tighter crops. Why is that? Was the camera moved or were some of the corners cropped out?

samlee.hk wrote:
Share some GR21/3.5 LTM w A7RII (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) + M240 Testing From my Taiwan net-friend w NK mod

M240 + GR21/3.5 LTM , LR to jpeg Shadows +40, Vignetting amount +4

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/646/32873544686_7ae3067cb0_b.jpg

A7RII (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) + GR21/3.5 LTM , LR to jpeg Shadows +40, Vignetting amount +4

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2066/32914162435_9920cef437_b.jpg

For the whole set testing : GR21/3.5 LTM + M240 +A7RII mod Testing

There are another VM21/1.8 Testing with A7RII(removed Glass +0.85) + M9
VM 21mm F1.8 Testing

Share Some VM21/4 LTM w A7II (removed cover Glass+0.85mm thin filter) from my Macau Net-Friend w NK mod

@F4
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/274/32046663933_0d5759e3d0_b.jpg

See more : @F5.6 @F8 @F11


Feb 26, 2017 at 08:33 AM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #15 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


Steve Spencer wrote:
Interesting comparison but the modified camera's shots appear to be tighter crops. Why is that? Was the camera moved or were some of the corners cropped out?



I think the difference in those two shots are just framing, Steve. It looks the the M240 was pointed down and a bit more to the right than the Sony.



Feb 26, 2017 at 02:01 PM
freaklikeme
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p.7 #16 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


artur5 wrote:
Interesting post, for sure. On further thoughts, Kolari offers also a 'naked' conversion - i.e. removing all the filters. Now, in Sony A7x cameras, we know that a last sheet of glass glued to the sensor isn't removed by Kolari (unlike the Taiwan mod ). Thus, the sensor itself wouldn't be totally exposed and it will be possible to clean it with the usual procedures, although if you scratch that protective glass, it means replacing the whole sensor. A bit risky, but it would be the ultimate mod. We'd have a super versatile camera able to shoot IR, normal light
...Show more

Agreed. I'm not finding any big gotchas in my research. Putting the hot filter in front of the lens doesn't have the same effect as putting it in front of the sensor, so far as the lens corner performance is concerned. It is expensive ($300 for the conversion, $380 for a set of filters to cover the 18, 24, ZM 35, 75, and 180). I've got a couple of lenses that will take some thought. The pre-A Summilux 35, which has a filter compartment in the hood but it's series VIIi, so I'll have to see if I can make either a 49 or 52 work, and the oh-so convenient 60mm thread of the APO-Elmarit-R 100 may be tricky, but I'm sure it's surmountable. I think this may wind up being the answer for me.



Feb 26, 2017 at 02:36 PM
uhoh7
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p.7 #17 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


artur5 wrote:
Thus, the sensor itself wouldn't be totally exposed and it will be possible to clean it with the usual procedures, although if you scratch that protective glass, it means replacing the whole sensor.


Unless of course, you then sent the camera to NK, who pulls that off anyway

UT on Nikkor 500/4 P today with overcast


UT_500/4P by unoh7, on Flickr


UT_500/4P by unoh7, on Flickr

Bokeh on the Nikkor 300/2.8 and 500/4 MF lenses.....I swoon



Feb 26, 2017 at 04:38 PM
artur5
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p.7 #18 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


uhoh7 wrote:
Unless of course, you then sent the camera to NK, who pulls that off anyway

I hadn't thought of that.
Seriously now; maybe for you guys in the US, the Kolari mods makes much more sense for cost, expedited delivery, no Customs hassles etc.. but for people based in Europe/Asia the "Taiwan Master way" might be well worth considering ( but not before the warranty of my A7II expires )



Feb 26, 2017 at 05:12 PM
uhoh7
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p.7 #19 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


artur5 wrote:
I hadn't thought of that.
Seriously now; maybe for you guys in the US, the Kolari mods makes much more sense for cost, expedited delivery, no Customs hassles etc.. but for people based in Europe/Asia the "Taiwan Master way" might be well worth considering ( but not before the warranty of my A7II expires )


The NK mod is awesome.

But on your point: every Leica user cleaning their sensor is cleaning the bare coverglass. It is easier to damage than the hard clear coverglass on the A7x sensor, because the Leica IR cut glass is softer. If the A7x coverglass was somehow damaged, NK is not the only option. Techs in the USA will replace that clear glass with whatever you want for less than the cost of a new sensor. Yes, the glued glass


UT_CV35/1.4_WO by unoh7, on Flickr

As far as blacks and reds, if there is an issue, I have not seen it. I need to find a victim for a skin tone comparison with good light. I keep looking for a reason to not upgrade my own v2 to the UT. So far, I have not seen it, but it's early.

One thing that's great, the A7x has now been modded a lot by many different techs, including DIY. So Illija and NK now know how to move the sensor forward, etc. and other tricks that come with experience.

BTW my UT prototype goes well past infinity, as Illija told me it would. He just wanted to be positive we could get infinity for testing, and really "hitting" it is time consuming. My V2 is close to nailing infinity with several adapters.



Feb 26, 2017 at 05:33 PM
uhoh7
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p.7 #20 · First Sighting: A7rii Thin filter in action


OK I found a sucker

It's sort of interesting. Keep in mind I'm in the sun very often at high altitude. I'm in front of a window, snow outside, but very overcast.

So, here we have 50 Cron, F/5.6 AWB 1/100


V2_50cron_5.6_AWB by unoh7, on Flickr


UT_50cron_5.6_AWB by unoh7, on Flickr

Yes, I'm a little underexposed, but I wanted at least 5.6 and not too high ISO. It's 640.

Now to be fair, I edited both images. Not much.


V2_50cron_5.6_AWB_PP by unoh7, on Flickr


UT_50cron_5.6_AWB_PP-2 by unoh7, on Flickr

I had no expectations here. Frankly I'm always surprised when the UT "wins" except for edge sharpness. But I grabbed a mirror sat in the same light and compared. Skin tone is more accurate on the UT than V2 IMHO.

Why is my face so red?


Round House Below by unoh7, on Flickr

This was yesterday. I was out there 6 hours or so. Yes, I've had melanoma. I'm not bragging, it's just context to interpret skin tones.

My conclusion (which can be proven wrong), is that there is no exceptional problem with skin tones on the UT. As well all know, skin tones can be a struggle in some light with any camera.

Edited on Feb 26, 2017 at 07:14 PM · View previous versions



Feb 26, 2017 at 06:48 PM
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