fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              6              8              35       36       end
  

Archive 2015 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...

  
 
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #1 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


mawz wrote:
No flip screen is a deal-ender for me. Absolute design fail in a mirrorless body, and moderate fail in a DSLR. Articulated screens are simply such a massive improvement for tripod and non-eyelevel handheld work that I wouldn't buy a body without one today. For those who don't like them, high-end ones are thin and tuck away readily (like on my E-M1)


I find the flip screen on my A7R very beneficial for the reasons you mentioned - even I would love to have the option to tilt it sideways, too (advantageous for vertical shooting)


Sony does not cover themselves in glory with the battery for the A7. They should have used the A99 battery rather than the low-capacity battery from the smaller NEX series. The issue here isn't so much power management as it is a tiny battery with inadequate capacity for the camera's needs.


I hear this complaint often, but it does not align with my personal experience. Last week I used one fully charged Sony battery in my A7R for a daytrip hike in temperatures around 40F. The Li-batteries drain quickly in the cold, still I was able to capture about 150 photos during the hike with one single battery. I always have a second one with me as spare, but never more than two. I recommend to use the airplane camera mode to disable WiFi which otherwise drains the battery much more quickly.



Oct 21, 2015 at 06:32 AM
Zony_user
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #2 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Tmuussoni wrote:
Well... I must say I am so disappointed. No other way to say it. That thing is just MASSIVE. Size wise its much closer to Nikon D600/D750 and Canon 6D, than Sony A7 -series (or A7R II). I think this was a huge mistake. Now it seems Leica is going head to head against CaNikon, a potential suicide already there. They should have tried to keep the size small. And yes, A7r II still does have size advantage compared to full frame DSLRs. But compared to SL body and lenses I've seen, Leica does not have the same advantage. And
...Show more


Agreed. I think what everyone wanted was basically a Kolari-modded A7ii --- a camera that would allow usage of all the M lenses with an adapter, while we waited for native AF glass.

All they had to do was add a decent grip and maybe 4K to the highly-touted Q, take the 28mm lens off and make it a T-mount, price it at around $3,500-$4,000, and call it a day. It would have been perfect with IBIS, great ergonomics, and a small size --- a true threat to the A7 series. But no, they had to screw it all up by making a behemoth that costs $7,450. What a poor poor business decision.



Oct 21, 2015 at 06:34 AM
Matt Grum
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #3 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


alundeb wrote:
The LCD screen both generates heat in addition to the heat from the sensor, and it insulates the body. Flipping out the screen solves both of these problems, as the heat from the LCD does not enter the body, and the heat from the sensor can be freely radiated and convected away from the back of the body.


Oops I totally misread the post it sounded like he was suggesting a flip screen helps to cause overheating!



Oct 21, 2015 at 06:46 AM
wolfloid
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #4 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


All they had to do was add a decent grip and maybe 4K to the highly-touted Q, take the 28mm lens off and make it a T-mount, price it at around $3,500-$4,000, and call it a day. It would have been perfect with IBIS, great ergonomics, and a small size --- a true threat to the A7 series. But no, they had to screw it all up by making a behemoth that costs $7,450. What a poor poor business decision.

I totally agree.

Leica does seem to be asleep at the wheel sometimes. Their SL-R adapter will not be ready until fall 2016! Why haven't they been getting this ready for a simultaneous launch, if its R lens customers they want to attract? Their 50/1.4 will not be ready until the end of 2016. So if you want to try its auto focus out then you have to invest $4000 dollars in a 1.12 kg great fat zoom lens. What were they thinking? No one is going to buy this just for M lenses.



Oct 21, 2015 at 06:47 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #5 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


I think the choice of the size has a lot to do with Leica's other cameras. If you want a small camera there is the M. The SL is the medium size camera and the S is the large MF camera. If they made it as small as the Q, then where would that leave the M. Leica has no interest in making a camera that competes in cost with the Sony A7 series. They also don't want to compete in cost with the Canon 5Ds or 6D or the Nikon D750 or D810. This camera will have a different user experience than any of those cameras. Much better EVF and more responsive than the Sonys. Much simpler interface and approach with a different aesthetic than Canikon. Is it a good value proposition? Of course not. Will they sell enough to make it profitable? I think so, but I could easily be wrong.


Oct 21, 2015 at 07:30 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #6 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think you are mischaracterizing Jono Black's review. He said he thought the edges and corners were *slightly* better on the M240, but that was without side by side testing. He also said he shot tons with the a number of M lenses and that, "Results have been excellent, and compare well with those from My Leica M240." So, from this review there is no indication of problems with M lenses. They seem to work well.

This camera seems to work well with Leica lenses that the Sony cameras do not and it works with Leica S lenses that
...Show more

Let me quote that whole paragraph to see if I mischaracterized it:

"For me then, the $64,000 dollar question was whether the Leica SL would perform well enough with Leica M lenses. To that end I dusted down my tripod and headed to the Suffolk coast with my Leica M240, the Leica SL, and my son Silas’s Sony A7 mark 2, together with a selection of Leica lenses which have proved problematic. I took a leaf out of Sean Reid’s book, and did this properly, shooting at f2.8, f4, f5.6 and f8 with each lens, with focus bracketing for each set. I am intending to post the original files and the comparison between the Sony A7 mark 2 and the Leica SL in a later article, but suffice to say, that although the edges and corners of the M240 were slightly better than the SL, the results for the SL were hugely better than those from the Sony A7 mark 2. Sadly, I didn’t have a Sony A7r mark 2, but the cover glass is the same thickness as that on the A7, and there is no reason to suppose that the results will be any better than the A7 mark 2."

He actually used his tripod to do an aperture test, instead of the usual Steve Huff's "non technical" opinion. I think that is pretty conclusive there. I just paraphrased what he said really.

So the champ of Alt lenses? If we actually list all the non-native platforms each camera can actually work with (in the case, you will see. We have working AF adapters for Contax N, Canon EF, Nikon F (prototype), Contax G, Contax 645.

As soon as Leica releases their working Leica S to L adapter, we would no doubt have one for Sony soon by reverse engineering. Sony will be, at least in the near future, a much more popular platform that third party adapter makers would spend more R&D on it. It's hasty at this point to say Leica SL can do more. We're not even sure if it's going to last long. The difference is again academic at best since this Leica is not going to dominate the market by any measure.

Edited on Oct 21, 2015 at 07:40 AM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:39 AM
alundeb
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #7 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the choice of the size has a lot to do with Leica's other cameras. If you want a small camera there is the M. The SL is the medium size camera and the S is the large MF camera. If they made it as small as the Q, then where would that leave the M. Leica has no interest in making a camera that competes in cost with the Sony A7 series. They also don't want to compete in cost with the Canon 5Ds or 6D or the Nikon D750 or D810. This camera will have a
...Show more

+ Some people actually want a mirrorless camera to be that size. It is emerging what kind of camera this is, a rugged, high responsive, high user experience camera. The problems with it may not at all be what we complain about here, but rather that it does not AF as well as a DSLR in all conditions, especially follow focus, and that it will be outperformed in frames per second by the next Canon and Nikon flagships. This is the first serious attempt in the mirrorless world to really go after those benhcmarks.



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:40 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #8 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Steve Spencer wrote:
Leica has no interest in making a camera that competes in cost with the Sony A7 series


And this is where Leica makes a big mistake IMO.



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:41 AM
Luvwine
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #9 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


zhangyue wrote:
Here is another photo Looks pretty good in size.

2 year down to the road, your A7RII may be worth $1500, this thing might be still $4500, resell value wise, Sony camera is worst of bunch so far.


Well, that remains to be seen (on both accounts), but assuming you are correct, even though Leica might have lost less in a percentage basis, the person who bought the Leica would lose $3,000 where person who bought Sony would lose $1800.



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:45 AM
Matt Grum
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #10 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I don't get why people complain about the price. It's around the same level as the Nikon D3X was, and the D3X was price in 2008 dollars. The 3 year old Canon 1D C was twice as expensive and offering less of everything except size and weight. It's a Leica intended for professional use this, not a Digital Rebel.


The problem is not with the body price as I see it but the lenses, $5000 for a standard zoom that isn't even f/2.8 through the zoom range.

That's $1000 more than a Zeiss Otus. You're almost up there with the Coastal Optics UV-VIS-IR 60mm. It had better be spectacular optically to justify the price tag... which leads to the next problem. The sensor is "only" 24MP. Now people will say they don't need more than that as they don't print posters, but the point is will a good lens on a 42MP sensor produce a sharper more detailed image than the very best lens on a 24MP sensor? From medium to long focal lengths where corners aren't so much an issue I think the answer is yes.




Oct 21, 2015 at 07:45 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #11 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


retrofocus wrote:
And this is where Leica makes a big mistake IMO.


And this is what Jorge Torralba had after talking one of rich friends, who is using Leica right now:

“Then it dawned on me. My friend said something that caught me by surprise. Totally unexpected and never saw it coming. He said to me, Leica does not need to compete. Leica is for it’s own niche market. It’s for those who want to wear the label. He went on to say he would never be seen with a Sony again. He was embarrassed to have one around his neck and would put tape all over it to mask the word Sony.”



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:46 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #12 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Luvwine wrote:
Well, that remains to be seen (on both accounts), but assuming you are correct, even though Leica might have lost less in a percentage basis, the person who bought the Leica would lose $3,000 where person who bought Sony would lose $1800.


Exactly, if we put a value on that depreciation, it would come out more. But I guess whoever spent $7500 on this early on, $3000 would not be a concern.



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:50 AM
relms
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #13 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...




This camera seems to work well with Leica lenses that the Sony cameras do not and it works with Leica S lenses that the Sony camera cannot use. So for alt lenses it does seem to work with more lenses that the Sony A7 series. In my book that makes it the champ for alt lenses, but YMMV.


One of the things that sells me on the SL is it's ability to utilize R, M And S lenses, but more importantly it speaks volumes about the direction that Leica is taking - that they are willing to offer cameras that make full use of current technology, while respecting the substantial investments that have been made by their user base. We saw with the Q that Leica has the ability to change and to innovate, and we see with the SL that Leica can, and will, continue to be a contender into the future, providing options for those who demand quality products. The SL is not for everyone, but then neither is a Porsche.



Oct 21, 2015 at 07:59 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #14 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


hiepphotog wrote:
Let me quote that whole paragraph to see if I mischaracterized it:

"For me then, the $64,000 dollar question was whether the Leica SL would perform well enough with Leica M lenses. To that end I dusted down my tripod and headed to the Suffolk coast with my Leica M240, the Leica SL, and my son Silas’s Sony A7 mark 2, together with a selection of Leica lenses which have proved problematic. I took a leaf out of Sean Reid’s book, and did this properly, shooting at f2.8, f4, f5.6 and f8 with each lens, with focus bracketing for each set.
...Show more

So, he says it is hugely better than the stock Sony and the M240 is slightly better in the edges and corners here and later he says the SL is excellent with M lenses and compares well with his M240, and you paraphrase that as the M240 is better than the SL. Sorry, IMO, that paraphrase is a mischaracterization and doesn't paint the full picture of what he is saying. The SL is much better than the Sony A7 II and very close to the performance of the M240 would be a much fairly characterization. And this characterization is important, IMO, because it strongly suggests that the SL has thin cover glass. Your paraphrase can and I think did lead some to believe the SL has thick cover glass.

As far as whether what makes something a king of alt lenses, it is clear we have very different ideas. You seem to be suggesting that wide spread adoption is what will make something the king of alt lenses. From my perspective alt lenses has never been and will never be about wide spread adoption.

Instead for the king of alt lenses I just mean the system that can use the widest array of non-native lenses. I think it is clear that the Leica SL will be that system. It can use M lenses more effectively--to use Juno Black's words it is hugely better. It can use S lenses, and I have some serious doubts that there will ever be third party adapters for the Sony to Leica S. Is there really enough money in S adapters to bother with reverse engineering an adapter for Sony? I kind of doubt it given how many of these lenses are on the market, but I guess we will see. So, IMO, the SL is the most adaptable system out there. The Sony is great for alts and the IBIS is very nice, but being able to use all the wide Ms well, IMO, certainly tips the crown to the SL. A win on points to be sure and not a knock out, but still a win in my book.



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:01 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #15 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


retrofocus wrote:
And this is where Leica makes a big mistake IMO.


It may well be a mistake, but its how Leica has always operated so hardly a surprise. They would be a very different company if they went for volume sales at lower prices. It might make business sense to do so, but that is beyond anything I know about to comment on that.



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:03 AM
telyt
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #16 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Luvwine wrote:
Well, that remains to be seen (on both accounts), but assuming you are correct, even though Leica might have lost less in a percentage basis, the person who bought the Leica would lose $3,000 where person who bought Sony would lose $1800.


I find direct cost comparison ludicrous at best. There are numerous areas where the Sony a7-series camera leave much room for improvement and unless the SL has the same problems price comparisons are apples/oranges.

For example (using my a7II for comparison):


  1. The a7II's first viewfinder magnification step is too big; I'd prefer the SL's 3x/10x steps
  2. The a7II's RAW bit depth drops in multi-shot mode and the RAW file compression is lossy, compromising file quality
  3. The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with my adapted lesns it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec and switching EFC on or off requires menu-diving


The a7-series cameras leave a lot of room for improvement and I'd like to see how the SL compares in these problem areas before drawing any conclusions. BTW, how do the a7-series cameras do at 11 frames/sec?



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:09 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #17 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


hiepphotog wrote:
And this is what Jorge Torralba had after talking one of rich friends, who is using Leica right now:

“Then it dawned on me. My friend said something that caught me by surprise. Totally unexpected and never saw it coming. He said to me, Leica does not need to compete. Leica is for it’s own niche market. It’s for those who want to wear the label. He went on to say he would never be seen with a Sony again. He was embarrassed to have one around his neck and would put tape all over it to mask the word Sony.”


Leica has changed ownerships several times, and one thing is for sure a goal: maximizing profitability. One way to do it is going after customers willing to pay for luxury items and/or camera gear collectors. I am sure Leica has seen an increase of their M lens sales caused by the Sony FF mirrorless cameras. That should make them think seriously about competing with Sony to increase their market share. The attitude "Leica does not need to compete" hurts in the long run. Kodak also once said that they don't see digital as threat and worthwhile to compete with...

Edited on Oct 21, 2015 at 08:19 AM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:11 AM
hiepphotog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #18 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Steve Spencer wrote:
So, he says it is hugely better than the stock Sony and the M240 is slightly better in the edges and corners here and later he says the SL is excellent with M lenses and compares well with his M240, and you paraphrase that as the M240 is better than the SL. Sorry, IMO, that paraphrase is a mischaracterization and doesn't paint the full picture of what he is saying. The SL is much better than the Sony A7 II and very close to the performance of the M240 would be a much fairly characterization. And this characterization is
...Show more

Let me re-quote myself then: "In the end, I would consider buying it if it's not for what Jono Black said in his review that its M compatibility is good but not as good as the M240." His later assessment is more like practical shooting, a little smearing with normal shooting would not be as noticeable. A modded Sony would give similar result as well.

As for adaptation, I think you conveniently left out what I have mentioned above. Sony system can currently AF with Canon EF, Nikon F, Contax G, Contax N, Contax 645. Nope, Leica SL can mount Leica S, which can mount Contax 645 (I think), and that's it. That is the here and now. As soon as third party figures out the protocol for Leica L mount to make Canon EF, Nikon F, Contax G, Contax N available for the L mount, they can just reverse engineer what Leica has done with their S-to-L right there. It's just part of the R&D process. Without those third party adapter makers, I doubt Leica (or Sony) would ever have so much adaptability.



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:15 AM
Tmuussoni
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #19 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


telyt wrote:
I find direct cost comparison ludicrous at best. There are numerous areas where the Sony a7-series camera leave much room for improvement and unless the SL has the same problems price comparisons are apples/oranges.

For example (using my a7II for comparison):


  1. The a7II's first viewfinder magnification step is too big; I'd prefer the SL's 3x/10x steps
  2. The a7II's RAW bit depth drops in multi-shot mode and the RAW file compression is lossy, compromising file quality
  3. The a7II's EFC feature makes the camera more responsive and quieter but with my adapted lesns it's useless at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec and switching EFC on


The a7-series cameras leave a lot of room for improvement and I'd like to see how the SL compares in these problem areas before drawing any conclusions. BTW, how do the a7-series cameras do at 11 frames/sec?
...Show more

No doubt the A7 -series have a lot to improve, but A7r II certainly was the step in right direction. And I am fine with A7's viewfinder magnification. You get used to it easily. It's true A7II's bit dept drops in multishot mode. But there is still a chance we get a firmware update that will fix this. Time will tell. About menu diving: can't you assign enabling EFC to a custom button on the A7II? I don't own A7II so can't test this one.

Secondly, SL can do only 11 fps with locked focus and exposure.. with full AF and AE it can do only around 6 fps. Seems like a draw there. My point: SL has lot to proove. And it will take very, very long time before their lens selection becomes competitive. Sony did it in less than 2 years, but I just can't see Leica doing the same due to their much more limited resources.







Oct 21, 2015 at 08:18 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.7 #20 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


hiepphotog wrote:
Let me re-quote myself then: "In the end, I would consider buying it if it's not for what Jono Black said in his review that its M compatibility is good but not as good as the M240." His later assessment is more like practical shooting, a little smearing with normal shooting would not be as noticeable. A modded Sony would give similar result as well.

As for adaptation, I think you conveniently left out what I have mentioned above. Sony system can currently AF with Canon EF, Nikon F, Contax G, Contax N, Contax 645. Nope, Leica SL can mount Leica
...Show more


Well it still find your original quote to be seriously misleading in how you describe Juno's assessment, but your decision is your decision and I won't belabour the difference in our assessments any more.

With regard to alt, this post makes it even more clear how we have different views of Alt. For me third party AF is not a real criteria for Alt. When I think Alt, I think manual focus and can you use a lens not whether it is AF and that has historically been a common view on this board. I realize that is a very idiosyncratic view and appreciate that others might really like third party AF. It just isn't my thing. So, I didn't conveniently leave it out. It just isn't part of my idea of Alt. Like I said we have different views of Alt and both those views have been pretty common on this board. So, it isn't surprising we would crown different champs.

By the way, I still don't think anyone will make an S adapter for Sony, but we will see and all I care about with the S adapter is that it allows MF and that the MF of the S lenses is excellent. That it delivers AF couldn't matter less to me, but that too is part of how I view Alt.



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:36 AM
1       2       3              6              8              35       36       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              6              8              35       36       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account