adamdewilde wrote:
Gary - I think you'd like it. But with the amount of hiking you do with your family. You'd have to spend less time at the dentist chair and more time at gold's gym... And then maybe wouldn't have enough $$ for the camera
Very interesting discussion guys. Thank you for your valuable input. Initially I was very excited about the SL but the more I think about it the more I'm convinced it won't add much to my photography. I'm essentially an M person and really enjoy the rangefinder experience. I have also considered the S and even discussed it with Adam by pm but have ultimately reached the same conclusion. I won't be able to use DSLR sized bodies and lenses for what I shoot. So now I'm shifting my interest to the next M and what advances from the SL and Q will trickle down to it.
edwardkaraa wrote:
Very interesting discussion guys. Thank you for your valuable input. Initially I was very excited about the SL but the more I think about it the more I'm convinced it won't add much to my photography. I'm essentially an M person and really enjoy the rangefinder experience. I have also considered the S and even discussed it with Adam by pm but have ultimately reached the same conclusion. I won't be able to use DSLR sized bodies and lenses for what I shoot. So now I'm shifting my interest to the next M and what advances from the SL and Q will trickle down to it. ...Show more →
Probably the smarter move.
Though I'd love to see what you get with an S+45S, I think the discrete shooting an RF offers is probably more valuable then the increase in IQ.
Adam, thank you for letting us know your experience with the SL.
I read somewhere saying the SL produces better colors than the M? do you agree with that assessment?
Dewolff wrote:
Are there any people who actually like the design?
I guess you are used to posts which just rave about every aspect of a camera, including obviously silly things. These guys are clear eyed and honest, which is refreshing. The design is a very complex issue and the "complaints" here are specific. The same reporters would/do have an equally long list about nearly every body they use, though obviously different.
Goodrich wrote:
I don't think that the Kolari is available in Europe and it seems to degrade native lens performance, so it's not a viable option for me, I think. Pity.
I'm a broken record on Kolari But it has turned the A7 from a shelf queen to one in constant use for me. You send the camera to them or buy it through them, and this can be done from anywhere.
Yes the natives are slightly degraded, but the only reason you would want any of them is for the AF, otherwise there are smaller nicer options in M mount at every step, many of which you already own
In a year or two, I may get an A7r2 just for this. In general I don't crop, but for wildlife the 42mp would be useful I think by this time next year we will see the camera in exe condition well under 2K.
davewolfs wrote:
Based on Adams comments it seems like the body is bound to become a paper weight.
Well, I think that is a pretty extreme reading. The body isn't perfect and Adam has been honest, but I think if he like the 50 Lux and his S glass on the camera, he will keep it. If you have listened to Adam, then it would be clear that if people shared his views the Sony A7 series would become paper weights too. Adam is a tough and particular critic. I appreciate his views very much, but I don't see them as dooming the camera.
This camera looks pretty interesting to me but I will pass on it. I would love to try one out for a few weeks as I think it does have some unique "benefits" depending on what type of shooting you prefer. I happen to love the 50noct samples I have seen with the SL... However, I will save my pennies for now and spend them on the next M. Any guesses when it will be released?
Nov 30, 2015 at 03:12 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Gary Clennan wrote:
This camera looks pretty interesting to me but I will pass on it. I would love to try one out for a few weeks as I think it does have some unique "benefits" depending on what type of shooting you prefer. I happen to love the 50noct samples I have seen with the SL... However, I will save my pennies for now and spend them on the next M. Any guesses when it will be released?
Hi Gary,
I am betting it will be released next year at Photokina which is in the Fall.
You have a lot of gear to buy. Please let us know when you have the SL in hand
I'm not sure how my interpretation is extreme.
He doesn't like the zoom - check.
There is no AF prime - check.
He doesn't like the colors - check.
He can't use his S lenses in the body any time soon - check.
He speculates it will cost $1800 for an S lens adapter - check.
He can't focus his M lenses with any EVF assistance since you can't turn focus ring and press button at same time (ok for some lenses bad for others) - check.
The battery life isn't great - check.
Am I missing something?
Steve Spencer wrote:
Well, I think that is a pretty extreme reading. The body isn't perfect and Adam has been honest, but I think if he like the 50 Lux and his S glass on the camera, he will keep it. If you have listened to Adam, then it would be clear that if people shared his views the Sony A7 series would become paper weights too. Adam is a tough and particular critic. I appreciate his views very much, but I don't see them as dooming the camera.
adamdewilde wrote:
I just seen your earlier post about the fuji zoom. I had a lot of fun with my little fuji APS-C camera. It came when I was selling off the M9 cameras in anticipation of the M240.. It was a good little guy, and it took M lenses well enough. I do remember liking the JPG files. But at the time, the only good lens was the 35/1.4, I had the macro too, but it was terrible to auto focus and I didn't much like it.
I'm on my 2nd try with the Fujis. 1st time round I had the 18-55 and 35. I agree the 35 was good but the 18-55 was just average for both the copies I tried, although many raved about it. This time I have the wide zoom an both 2.8's. And they're really really good. I have yet to see something I don't like about the 16-55 or 50-140.
The 56mm 1.2APD might be the best 85mm equivalent I've ever used. It's astounding. I like it more than the 90mmAA Leica M. And there's a new fast "standard" coming. A 33mm 1.0 apparently.
Gordon
Nov 30, 2015 at 05:04 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
You have a lot of gear to buy. Please let us know when you have the SL in hand
I'm not sure how my interpretation is extreme.
He doesn't like the zoom - check.
There is no AF prime - check.
He doesn't like the colors - check.
He can't use his S lenses in the body any time soon - check.
He speculates it will cost $1800 for an S lens adapter - check.
He can't focus his M lenses with any EVF assistance since you can't turn focus ring and press button at same time (ok for some lenses bad for others) - check.
The battery life isn't great - check.
Your snarky message about my budget and your current snarky message about my having a lot of gear to buy is not the sort of behaviour we normally have in this forum. People who know me, know that I take a lot of time thinking about buying gear and then save up and get what I decide on. I will be getting the SL in August or September of next year if nothing comes up to dissuade me and no I don't need to justify that to you, but you raise it as a issue so I might as well address it.
Now what are you missing--I think a lot.
1) Adam very much likes the EVF and finds it better than a DSLR OVF in most circumstances. He will likely replace his Nikon, which he also has many complaints about, and this preference for the SL EVF might well still make it the replacement for his Nikon.
2) The big thing that you missed is that several of the things you mentioned will change and several others may well be fixed with firmware, and Leica has a decent record of fixing a number of things with firmware upgrades. So let me review the things you listed as fundamental problems that may well change.
There is not AF prime -- this will change by next Fall
He doesn't like the colours -- this is primarily for jpegs and could easily change with a firmware upgrade
He can't use S lenses with the body any time soon -- this will change by April supposedly
He speculates the S adapter will cost $1,800 -- I think he may be right about this high cost but keep in mind Adam has 5 S lenses worth about $20,000 to $25,000 or so. Adding $1,800 for an adapter while an obscenely high price may still be worth it to take fuller advantage of his investment in S glass.
He can't focus his M lenses with any EVF assistance since you can't turn focus ring and press button at same time (ok for some lenses bad for others) - This may well be fixed with a firmware update
What does this leave of your list - he doesn't like the zoom and the battery life isn't great. Hmm, I think the Sony A7 series has done pretty well with exactly those same two complaints and it too had many complaints about shutter shock, compressed RAW, and many other small things that got fixed in time.
3) Adam very much likes the ergonomics of the camera -- except for the magnification issue.
4) Adam likes the size of the camera
5) Adam finds that M lenses work well on the camera
6) Adam is clearly an earlier adopter. There are issues that need to be fixed and how those issues are addressed will no doubt affect whether he keeps it.
I stand by my assessment. Your calling the camera a paper weight is an extreme assessment. It has its flaws like any other camera--especially one just released but it is hardly a paper weight.
I'm not asking you to justify it to me and I'm sorry that you think my comments are snarky. I think you are being overly sensitive. I think it's awesome you plan to splurge on all that gear. In a years time things will be very different.
Well my calling of the camera a paper weight is in the context of Adam using it. Based on what he's shared it doesn't seem like it would be something that would get much use until April or Fall. So yes I think my assessment in this context is pretty accurate. Maybe we will get some insight to how it performs on some active outings or jobs. Perhaps than his opinion will change.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Dave,
Your snarky message about my budget and your current snarky message about my having a lot of gear to buy is not the sort of behaviour we normally have in this forum. People who know me, know that I take a lot of time thinking about buying gear and then save up and get what I decide on. I will be getting the SL in August or September of next year if nothing comes up to dissuade me and no I don't need to justify that to you, but you raise it as a issue so I might as well address it.
Now what are you missing--I think a lot.
1) Adam very much likes the EVF and finds it better than a DSLR OVF in most circumstances. He will likely replace his Nikon, which he also has many complaints about, and this preference for the SL EVF might well still make it the replacement for his Nikon.
2) The big thing that you missed is that several of the things you mentioned will change and several others may well be fixed with firmware, and Leica has a decent record of fixing a number of things with firmware upgrades. So let me review the things you listed as fundamental problems that may well change.
There is not AF prime -- this will change by next Fall
He doesn't like the colours -- this is primarily for jpegs and could easily change with a firmware upgrade
He can't use S lenses with the body any time soon -- this will change by April supposedly
He speculates the S adapter will cost $1,800 -- I think he may be right about this high cost but keep in mind Adam has 5 S lenses worth about $20,000 to $25,000 or so. Adding $1,800 for an adapter while an obscenely high price may still be worth it to take fuller advantage of his investment in S glass.
He can't focus his M lenses with any EVF assistance since you can't turn focus ring and press button at same time (ok for some lenses bad for others) - This may well be fixed with a firmware update
What does this leave of your list - he doesn't like the zoom and the battery life isn't great. Hmm, I think the Sony A7 series has done pretty well with exactly those same two complaints and it too had many complaints about shutter shock, compressed RAW, and many other small things that got fixed in time.
3) Adam very much likes the ergonomics of the camera -- except for the magnification issue.
4) Adam likes the size of the camera
5) Adam finds that M lenses work well on the camera
6) Adam is clearly an earlier adopter. There are issues that need to be fixed and how those issues are addressed will no doubt affect whether he keeps it.
I stand by my assessment. Your calling the camera a paper weight is an extreme assessment. It has its flaws like any other camera--especially one just released but it is hardly a paper weight....Show more →
Nov 30, 2015 at 05:24 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
It is hard not to see such a comment as snarky. Then when I talked about what my plans were, you again commented on budget, and then in this latest comment you again said I had a lot of gear to buy, and then said you thought it was great I could splurge. Perhaps this is just a poor attempt at humour, but in my view commenting on other's budget (especially repeatedly) is not really appropriate. If you have been paying attention at all this is a sensitive issue to many people who buy Leica, and you know nothing about my budget and whether I am splurging or not. I think it is fine to comment on price and value and to note that different people have different budgets which clearly affects buying decisions is fine, but commenting on a specific person's budget and noting how much they are spending whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing is just bad manners in my book.
Nov 30, 2015 at 05:57 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
davewolfs wrote:
Well my calling of the camera a paper weight is in the context of Adam using it. Based on what he's shared it doesn't seem like it would be something that would get much use until April or Fall. So yes I think my assessment in this context is pretty accurate. Maybe we will get some insight to how it performs on some active outings or jobs. Perhaps than his opinion will change.
Well I think a much better way to describe Adam's situation is that a lot depends on what happens with the camera. How it performs with S and AF primes and whether and how nice the firmware upgrades are will determine if he keeps the camera and perhaps even loves it or whether he ditches it. I think until April he will use it with some of his M glass and while this won't be his preferred use, it won't be a paper weight either.
davewolfs wrote:
He can't focus his M lenses with any EVF assistance since you can't turn focus ring and press button at same time (ok for some lenses bad for others) - check.
I don't want to defend Leica in this design area because I think it's stupid that the focus magnify button isn't user assignable, but isn't the magnify button in a good spot to rest your thumb on while you use the focus tab on most m lenses?
sebboh wrote:
I don't want to defend Leica in this design area because I think it's stupid that the focus magnify button isn't user assignable, but isn't the magnify button in a good spot to rest your thumb on while you use the focus tab on most m lenses?
Nope.. You have to fully remove your hand from the lens. Move your face out of the way. Press the button. Move your face back. Focus, shoot... I suppose everyones hands are different, but that's what I have to do.
clmusic wrote:
Adam, thank you for letting us know your experience with the SL.
I read somewhere saying the SL produces better colors than the M? do you agree with that assessment?
In some scenarios I like the colors of the SL more. BUT for every day use, I think the sensor will need to be tweaked through firmware updates to make it more friendly for situations that can be unpredictable. Leica has pulled it off before in firmware updates. I don't see why they couldn't do it for the SL.
