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Archive 2015Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
p.22 #1Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
That looks very good for the Loxia. I would say a little less of that mustache style distortion than in my example. I did my test at 2m distance, so yours is showing the close to infinity behaviour. Seems like the distortion is corrected for infinity.
BTW: For which distance is the distortion corrected properly in the distortion profile? If the lens does not provide any distance information, there can only one setting be corrected.
Two more sun star samples:
Water Castle Neuhaus by Jannik Peters, auf Flickr
I like the bokeh pretty much for a lens of that focal length. The flare can be seen here too:
December Lighting by Jannik Peters, auf Flickr
BTW: For which distance is the distortion corrected properly in the distortion profile? If the lens does not provide any distance information, there can only one setting be corrected.
Two more sun star samples:
Water Castle Neuhaus by Jannik Peters, auf Flickr
I like the bokeh pretty much for a lens of that focal length. The flare can be seen here too:
December Lighting by Jannik Peters, auf Flickr
Dec 21, 2015 at 06:47 AM
p.22 #2Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
bjornthun wrote:
I think you may be looking at a decentered lens in the case of the Loxia 21/2.8. I had a decentered ZF.2 18/3.5, and there were "zones" of sharpnes and unsharpness that didn't correspond to a simple out-of-focus. The good news is that Zeiss in Oberkochen could fix it quickly for me. That lens I had bought used, and it looked like it had never been out of the box. I shot it exclusively with a Sony A7 and a Voigtländer adapter. When it came back everything was top notch. And the ZF.2 18/3.5 is defintely better than the rumour...Show more →
Thanks Bjorn. I was thinking about returning it to my dealer but that motivates me to keep the lens and let it get fixed in Oberkochen. Hopefully I will make the same experience as you made.
I think you may be looking at a decentered lens in the case of the Loxia 21/2.8. I had a decentered ZF.2 18/3.5, and there were "zones" of sharpnes and unsharpness that didn't correspond to a simple out-of-focus. The good news is that Zeiss in Oberkochen could fix it quickly for me. That lens I had bought used, and it looked like it had never been out of the box. I shot it exclusively with a Sony A7 and a Voigtländer adapter. When it came back everything was top notch. And the ZF.2 18/3.5 is defintely better than the rumour...Show more →
Thanks Bjorn. I was thinking about returning it to my dealer but that motivates me to keep the lens and let it get fixed in Oberkochen. Hopefully I will make the same experience as you made.
Dec 21, 2015 at 07:02 AM
p.22 #3Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Phillip Reeve wrote:
I am very disappointed by the decentering of Jannik's copy. It takes about 5 minutes to detect decentering of that degree but Zeiss shipped that copy for 1499€ none the less.
Decentered lenses have always been around, but it's just way too common in these expensive E mount lenses, and when I see them for sale I wonder if the seller is trying to find a better one. I think the Sony users should get together and get the message loud and clear to Sony: build quality must improve for E mount lenses.
It's an issue that should be very rare.
Another thing we learn: distortion on a lens chart does not preclude the in camera correction. But do the curves reflect the effect on MTF of such correction?
I am very disappointed by the decentering of Jannik's copy. It takes about 5 minutes to detect decentering of that degree but Zeiss shipped that copy for 1499€ none the less.
Decentered lenses have always been around, but it's just way too common in these expensive E mount lenses, and when I see them for sale I wonder if the seller is trying to find a better one. I think the Sony users should get together and get the message loud and clear to Sony: build quality must improve for E mount lenses.
It's an issue that should be very rare.
Another thing we learn: distortion on a lens chart does not preclude the in camera correction. But do the curves reflect the effect on MTF of such correction?
Dec 21, 2015 at 08:42 AM
p.22 #4Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Jannik Peters wrote:
My A7 has the original, allegedly wobbly, stock Sony mount, which has never been exchanged.Thanks Bjorn. I was thinking about returning it to my dealer but that motivates me to keep the lens and let it get fixed in Oberkochen. Hopefully I will make the same experience as you made.
Seeing Zeiss (unlike Sony) should be able to fix a de-centerd lens I think I would send mine back to be corrected rather than taking a punt on a 2nd copy. Personally I would wait to after the new year and send it
bjornthun wrote
I think you may be looking at a decentered lens in the case of the Loxia 21/2.8. I had a decentered ZF.2 18/3.5, and there were "zones" of sharpnes and unsharpness that didn't correspond to a simple out-of-focus. The good news is that Zeiss in Oberkochen could fix it quickly for me. That lens I had bought used, and it looked like it had never been out of the box. I shot it exclusively with a Sony A7 and a Voigtländer adapter. When it came back everything was top notch. And the ZF.2 18/3.5 is defintely better than the rumour has it.My A7 has the original, allegedly wobbly, stock Sony mount, which has never been exchanged.
Seeing Zeiss (unlike Sony) should be able to fix a de-centerd lens I think I would send mine back to be corrected rather than taking a punt on a 2nd copy. Personally I would wait to after the new year and send it
Dec 21, 2015 at 11:29 AM
p.22 #5Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Interesting points Jannik!
Unfortunately I did not have the time for some serious sessions with the Loxia, but here are 2 close up samples with crops. These downsized jpgs mangled by flickr sharpening do not really convey the rendering on screen, which is a pity, but there you go. I have a cat picture too, but dare not post it here :-)
Wide open, very close to MFT.
Loxia21mm 1 by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
Loxia21mmDetail 1 by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
Loxia21mm 2 by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
Loxia21mmDetail 2 by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
To me it is quite amazing that this Loxia gets so close to the classic. Surely at least the smaller barrel size must come at a penalty (I suspect Samuli will point out the pour bokeh in the corners compared to the classic. That being said, he is not a UWA person anyway.....). Does this mean there is actual advantage in lens design without having to cater for the space a mirror needs?
Unfortunately I did not have the time for some serious sessions with the Loxia, but here are 2 close up samples with crops. These downsized jpgs mangled by flickr sharpening do not really convey the rendering on screen, which is a pity, but there you go. I have a cat picture too, but dare not post it here :-)
Wide open, very close to MFT.
Loxia21mm 1 by Hans van den Bosch, on FlickrLoxia21mmDetail 1 by Hans van den Bosch, on FlickrLoxia21mm 2 by Hans van den Bosch, on FlickrLoxia21mmDetail 2 by Hans van den Bosch, on FlickrTo me it is quite amazing that this Loxia gets so close to the classic. Surely at least the smaller barrel size must come at a penalty (I suspect Samuli will point out the pour bokeh in the corners compared to the classic. That being said, he is not a UWA person anyway.....). Does this mean there is actual advantage in lens design without having to cater for the space a mirror needs?
Dec 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM
p.22 #6Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I would return to dealer. The repair wait could be long and I personally have zero patience waiting on gear.
Dec 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM
p.22 #7Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
I would return to dealer. The repair wait could be long and I personally have zero patience waiting on gear.
But then the wait could be even longer because only a small first batch of lenses was shipped last week and the next shipment is scheduled for mid January.
I would return to dealer. The repair wait could be long and I personally have zero patience waiting on gear.
But then the wait could be even longer because only a small first batch of lenses was shipped last week and the next shipment is scheduled for mid January.
Dec 21, 2015 at 11:59 AM
p.22 #8Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
GMPhotography wrote:
I would return to dealer. The repair wait could be long and I personally have zero patience waiting on gear.
Well they used to say 'Patience is a virtue' and I think that I personally would prefer Zeiss to get it right rather than trying another lens. I am still slowly testing mine and if it is de-centered I will send it off to be calibrated even if this does take sometime as at least I will know that I should get a perfect lens back and I always have my FE16-35 if I need it
I would return to dealer. The repair wait could be long and I personally have zero patience waiting on gear.
Well they used to say 'Patience is a virtue' and I think that I personally would prefer Zeiss to get it right rather than trying another lens. I am still slowly testing mine and if it is de-centered I will send it off to be calibrated even if this does take sometime as at least I will know that I should get a perfect lens back and I always have my FE16-35 if I need it
Dec 21, 2015 at 12:20 PM
p.22 #9Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
The decentering could have happened after the lens left Cosina. Freight companies don't treat packages with kid gloves. Let's see if more copies exhibit this. My copy has been located and I should have it right before Christmas.
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
Dec 21, 2015 at 12:58 PM
p.22 #10Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
philber wrote:
The decentering could have happened after the lens left Cosina. Freight companies don't treat packages with kid gloves. Let's see if more copies exhibit this. My copy has been located and I should have it right before Christmas.
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
It could be worse, he could be photographing moustaches.
Rich
The decentering could have happened after the lens left Cosina. Freight companies don't treat packages with kid gloves. Let's see if more copies exhibit this. My copy has been located and I should have it right before Christmas.
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
It could be worse, he could be photographing moustaches.
Rich
Dec 21, 2015 at 01:04 PM
p.22 #12Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
philber wrote:
The decentering could have happened after the lens left Cosina. Freight companies don't treat packages with kid gloves. Let's see if more copies exhibit this. My copy has been located and I should have it right before Christmas.
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
I don't buy this "Freight companies" excuse for decentered Zeiss and Sony lenses. This seems to be a growing theory, that just happens to take the blame off of Zeiss. Even if it did happen during transport it means that Zeiss need to build more robust lenses. Their packaging seem to offer plenty of protection, so the actual impact of any handing during transport would not be that great. I have many 20-30 year old lenses that have survived all sort of much worse transportation in my truck on 4x4 roads, and in my backpack being abused. They are just as sharp as they day I got them, and still no centering issues.
The decentering could have happened after the lens left Cosina. Freight companies don't treat packages with kid gloves. Let's see if more copies exhibit this. My copy has been located and I should have it right before Christmas.
As regards mustache distortion of Loxia Vs Classic, what are you seeing? Which one shows more on the posted sample (thanks, Hans!!!). Note how Hans cleverly chooses to shoots mushrooms, so the distortion is not noticeable
BTW, very nice shots, both of you!
I don't buy this "Freight companies" excuse for decentered Zeiss and Sony lenses. This seems to be a growing theory, that just happens to take the blame off of Zeiss. Even if it did happen during transport it means that Zeiss need to build more robust lenses. Their packaging seem to offer plenty of protection, so the actual impact of any handing during transport would not be that great. I have many 20-30 year old lenses that have survived all sort of much worse transportation in my truck on 4x4 roads, and in my backpack being abused. They are just as sharp as they day I got them, and still no centering issues.
Dec 21, 2015 at 03:20 PM
p.22 #13Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Decentered lenses are common and have been sold and delivered to customers ever since.
Most customers *never* noticed.
Today, the difference is, that with 36 or 42 MP sensors you now can detect *minimal* decentering you never would have seen before with a D700/D3 or a 5D/5DII/1DM2 some months ago...
Step back and rethink your knowledge about final output size /vs/ gear craftsmanship tolerance in modern lens/camera combination ...
Most customers *never* noticed.
Today, the difference is, that with 36 or 42 MP sensors you now can detect *minimal* decentering you never would have seen before with a D700/D3 or a 5D/5DII/1DM2 some months ago...
Step back and rethink your knowledge about final output size /vs/ gear craftsmanship tolerance in modern lens/camera combination ...
Dec 21, 2015 at 03:40 PM
p.22 #14Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
pdmphoto wrote:
They are just as sharp as they day I got them, and still no centering issues.
Uh huh.
They are just as sharp as they day I got them, and still no centering issues.
Uh huh.
Dec 21, 2015 at 08:57 PM
p.22 #15Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
MAubrey wrote:
Uh huh.
Meaning? Are you adding to this discussion in some reasonable way? I'm sure there are plenty of Canon and Nikon folk who would say the same. My lenses happen to be older manual focus. Some are Zeiss. Like my excellent Rollei 18/4 and 35/1.4.
Like I said, I don't buy the theory of decentering issue being caused by shipping companies...I've tested my lenses at 36MP with the A7R.
pdmphoto wrote
They are just as sharp as they day I got them, and still no centering issues.Meaning? Are you adding to this discussion in some reasonable way? I'm sure there are plenty of Canon and Nikon folk who would say the same. My lenses happen to be older manual focus. Some are Zeiss. Like my excellent Rollei 18/4 and 35/1.4.
Like I said, I don't buy the theory of decentering issue being caused by shipping companies...I've tested my lenses at 36MP with the A7R.
Dec 21, 2015 at 09:18 PM
p.22 #16Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
JocoFoto wrote:
Just to chime in on the question regarding distortion - at the moment I have both the ZF21mm and the Loxia 21mm.
The 'classic' is so amazing - that I am hesitating to let it go and sell it. Therefore I wanted to test anyway, so I happen to have a boring building comparison at hand.
First the Classic:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5661/23886029115_8928d2cef9_o.jpgZF21mm by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
And here's the Loxia:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/696/23518109589_ab8fbc1cd2_o.jpgLoxia21mm by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
I've double checked and all in-camera lens corrections are switched off.
Btw - those in camera corrections seem very convenient to me. Do they come at a penalty?...Show more →
Thanks for posting these, Hans. It certainly looks improved, but not completely gone.
Sorry I can't return the favor and answer your question, but I have no idea how the in-camera corrections work. I don't have any lenses the camera would recognize as native, so I've never turned them on.
Just to chime in on the question regarding distortion - at the moment I have both the ZF21mm and the Loxia 21mm.
The 'classic' is so amazing - that I am hesitating to let it go and sell it. Therefore I wanted to test anyway, so I happen to have a boring building comparison at hand.
First the Classic:
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5661/23886029115_8928d2cef9_o.jpgZF21mm by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
And here's the Loxia:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/696/23518109589_ab8fbc1cd2_o.jpgLoxia21mm by Hans van den Bosch, on Flickr
I've double checked and all in-camera lens corrections are switched off.
Btw - those in camera corrections seem very convenient to me. Do they come at a penalty?...Show more →
Thanks for posting these, Hans. It certainly looks improved, but not completely gone.
Sorry I can't return the favor and answer your question, but I have no idea how the in-camera corrections work. I don't have any lenses the camera would recognize as native, so I've never turned them on.
Dec 21, 2015 at 10:49 PM
p.22 #17Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Yes, thanks JocoFoto for posting those comparisons on distortion. Very interesting. At distance the Loxia has less distortion slightly. Wonder if that is true too at 2m.
Dec 22, 2015 at 09:19 AM
p.22 #18Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
I feel I have to do another test tomorrow :-)
Dec 22, 2015 at 09:21 AM
p.22 #19Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Today, I did a final analysis of the decentering.
First, I repeated the test:
Then, I did the test upside down but displayed the corners in the original direction. So bottom left is top right here. Same result as before although the lens was focused slightly different:
Finally, I checked my Canon nFD 20mm f/2.8. Here, left and right look the same although there is some difference between top and bottom.
So finally, I can only conclude that the lens must be decentered. What do you think about it?
First, I repeated the test:
Then, I did the test upside down but displayed the corners in the original direction. So bottom left is top right here. Same result as before although the lens was focused slightly different:
Finally, I checked my Canon nFD 20mm f/2.8. Here, left and right look the same although there is some difference between top and bottom.
So finally, I can only conclude that the lens must be decentered. What do you think about it?
Dec 22, 2015 at 11:49 AM
p.22 #20Zeiss Unveils the Loxia 21mm f/2.8
Jannik Peters wrote:
So finally, I can only conclude that the lens must be decentered. What do you think about it?
Yes, clearly a decentered copy.
So finally, I can only conclude that the lens must be decentered. What do you think about it?
Yes, clearly a decentered copy.
Dec 22, 2015 at 12:34 PM