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Archive 2015 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

chez
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p.2 #1 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

ggreene wrote:
From all the samples I have seen from the D810, 5Ds/R, and A7rII, I don't think anyone could reliably pick out what camera did them in a blind test. They are simply all very fine camera's with outstanding IQ.

Yes, you can achieve the same end result...but it's the path you need to take and the hoops you need to jump through that really separates the cameras.

Aug 15, 2015 at 10:43 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.2 #2 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

OntheRez wrote:
So here's the $64,000 question: does this make a difference in how the human eye perceives the photo particularly printed at a reasonable size? I know you can pixel peep to 200x and up, but come on, that really doesn't have much to do with what the photo looks like to other humans.

How serious/significant is this reported superiority of the Sony 7rxxx? Inquiring minds (well at least mine) want to know

This is source of one of the fundamental differences of opinion ��not just about these particular cameras, but about how to think about the meaning of this or that performance difference.

I'll use the DR issue as an example. Let me begin by stipulating that the Sony sensors can record a larger dynamic range than Canon sensors, and that for anyone who regards this particular difference in capability as the "be all, end all" of camera performance will likely be strongly attracted to the optimal DR of the Sony products.

For many people, a good decision will be complicated by a number of other factors. There are many such factors, but I'll mention two:

1. One question concerns the actual effect of the objective technical difference in real-world photography. This includes an assessment of how often the difference will solve (or not) a particular problem and how visible (or not) the improvement will be in photographic output. There is a lot to say about the specifics of this relative to prints made from a variety of cameras, but I'll mostly not expand on that right here. (My earlier links to some 5DsR examples are relevant.)

2. A second question concerns how that difference in one particular area of interest (say DR) relates to the total picture of all the elements that go into determining the suitability of a camera to particular kinds of photographic use. While camera A my have better DR, camera B may have better something else. (One could make the same point relative to other factors: sensor resolution, operational speed, lenses, handling, etc.)

These things become quite subjective. They are highly situational. One photographer may be trying to use a single camera or system to do a wide range of things, while another might have multiple systems tailored for different uses. One photographer may find it more appealing to have the latest thing, while a another values the functional efficiency of familiar tools. One may love using alt manual focus lenses, while another needs fast and responsive AF. And on and on.

ggreene wrote:
From all the samples I have seen from the D810, 5Ds/R, and A7rII, I don't think anyone could reliably pick out what camera did them in a blind test. They are simply all very fine camera's with outstanding IQ.

I think ��though clearly some will disagree ��that it is important to keep this in mind. I've shown work from as many as four different cameras at one time (17" x 22.5" prints from 5D, 5DII, 5DsR, Fujifilm XE1, for example) and even with close inspection by folks who know what to look for it is often hard, going on impossible, to tell.

YMMV,

Dan

Edited on Aug 15, 2015 at 12:24 PM · View previous versions

Aug 15, 2015 at 10:46 AM

Gunzorro
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p.2 #3 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

The DR issue, while real, is still a tempest in a teapot for me.

My top priority is resolution, and at the moment, Canon is the DSLR leader, followed closely by Sony, and then Nikon.

#2 is system depth, meaning many quality body models, lenses, flashes and other accessories -- with a long track record and inventory of previous models on used market.

I also value "controls" including ergonomics, buttons and dials, menu and features, owner manual, and processor. Customer support is also critical to me.

Finally, I get down to individual features like DR and AF point selection, etc. These are important, just like having a mode selection (P, Av, Tv, ...), but I could shoot in Manual and get images I want -- these aren't as critical as getting accurate focus (MF or AF) or desired resolution.

Anyhow, that's how I look at it from a practical stand point. Even if the Sony were a DSLR, my needs and wants put me in the Canon and Nikon camps, with Canon having the overall edge. That's just me, but I don't think I'm alone.

Aug 15, 2015 at 11:21 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #4 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

OntheRez wrote:
Ok, I'm well out of my level out of expertise here especially since optics was never in my university curriculum (got too fascinated with statistical analysis). So would someone (maybe in small words

) help me out here?

What I think I know is as follows:
(1) No camera (or for that matter any visual sensing device) can come anywhere near to the human eyes' ability to see both dark and light simultaneously - ignoring of course the extremes of "dark as a coal mine at midnight" and staring at the noonday sun.
(2) Variations in sensor technology do exist, and I'd...Show more →

Per the tester that has posted, which I think is still overstating the dynamic range because usable is different than some generous test with lots of noise in it where they declare. it achieves a goal - the best single shot dynamic range appears to be about 11 stops for full frame. With the 5dsr about a stop behind the a7rii at low iso's and maybe a quarter stop at higher iso, based on this analysis.

The human eye sees about 21 stops of dynamic range without banding or noise (or what we perceive as noise). Each stop is a doubling, So 20 is significantly less than 21 and 11 is mostly blind (

). The human eye/brain filters out the noise such that it is perceived as low s/n ratio.

No camera/sensor can achieve this yet. In fact even if you were to use really wide aeb and blending, you could in theory produce this kind of dynamic range but it would look bad because we are seeing in a constantly changing focus and attention - e.g. when we look at the dark mountain we change our focus and exposure compensation, when we look at the clouds we change them back. Thus we percieve our view at maybe 16 stops but we can see 21 stops. So the camera must display at 16 but be able to have detail to 21 to match our eyes.

Further, most computers and certainly prints cannot display that kind of resolution.

But my view is until the camera/sensor records >> 21 stops - more to take care of bad exposures, we will need to resort to HDR to achieve realistic looking picture.

And thus the art of photography is taking/processing/presenting a picture that - looks real and hints at detail but does not necessarily have it.

Here is my try of a very wide dynamic range from last week - 3x AEB blended (+-3stop = 13 stops) with single exposure to get the shadows back to realistic. I know that a7rii would not achieve this look in a single shot (and I would struggle more with the colors) because I have the a7r. The bright snow on the mountain was really hard not to blow out and get the trees on the right exposed. And then when I processed - I decided that i had to make the right hand trees dark (even though I had detail) because otherwise it just did not look right.

Ultimately for me, its about maximum resolution (blow up print as big as you can), closest colors (to minimize processing), and widest possible dynamic range (AEB) ( so that I have maximum amplitude of choices in processing). For what I do, mpx are more important than 1 stop of dynamic range that can be achieved through blending.

Aug 15, 2015 at 11:38 AM

chez
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p.2 #5 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

Gunzorro wrote:
The DR issue, while real, is still a tempest in a teapot for me.

My top priority is resolution, and at the moment, Canon is the DSLR leader, followed closely by Sony, and then Nikon.

#2 is system depth, meaning many quality body models, lenses, flashes and other accessories -- with a long track record and inventory of previous models on used market.

I also value "controls" including ergonomics, buttons and dials, menu and features, owner manual, and processor. Customer support is also critical to me.

Finally, I get down to individual features like DR and AF point selection, etc. These are important, just...Show more →

Last year I purchased an A7R for its resolution. Now we have a couple of new cameras with high pixel counts, the 5dsr and the A7R2. For now, I am sticking with my A7R as the extra cost if either of these new cameras does not add enough benefits. What I find really intriguing of the A7r2 is not only the extra DR which I find very handy in the A7R, but also the ability to use compact lenses with it in creating a nice travel camera and it's IBIS which comes in handy shooting street scenes with my manual lenses ( the Zuiko series of lenses make a great compact setup ) and the ease of manually focusing the camera.

For me, the A7R2 is a very good multi-use camera being an excellent tripod based landscape camera and one that can be minimized to make a compact travel camera. I'm also intrigued with it's ability to focus with many Canon lenses...especially the 24-105 and 24-70 which are my two main event lenses.

I guess we all have differing needs. Cost is the only obstacle stopping me from upgrading my A7R to the A7r2 camera. Thoughts in my head of selling both the A7R and 5d2 and getting the A7R2. It coupled with my A6000 would make an excellent setup for my travel photography. Heading to Vietnam next year on an extended journey.

I'd love to get the 5Dsr, but I just don't feel it's a good travel camera...and I love my manual focus lenses and Canon cameras struggle with manual focus. It does look like a good landscape camera.

Aug 15, 2015 at 12:06 PM

mttran
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p.2 #6 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

chez wrote:
Yes, you can achieve the same end result...but it's the path you need to take and the hoops you need to jump through that really separates the cameras.

+1, DR is cheap now day so why buying less since it is one of the keys of your IQ. It always giving you more room to collect better DR data either in one shot or multiple shots then why bother to debate this year after year. Camera has all kind of parameters (Tv,Av,Iso,DR,...) for user to control then the more working range of those parameters is the better for all of us, isn't it.

Aug 15, 2015 at 04:22 PM

rattlebonez
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p.2 #7 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

Canon narrower DR can't compete for IQ
what a load of BS

Aug 15, 2015 at 07:37 PM

mttran
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p.2 #8 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

rattlebonez wrote:
Canon narrower DR can't compete for IQ
what a load of BS

Like many, I don't think you read my msg well for what it means. Let me repeat this again "Camera has all kind of parameters (Tv,Av,Iso,DR,...) for user to control then the more working range of those parameters is the better tool for you, isn't it" . Yes, better tool is always giving your best chances to get better IQ in time and that is a competitive edge that counts under your work flows. So, narrower DR sensor can't IQ compete like many wider DR sensor and it's no science. If you don't believe in DR that gives you more in IQ edge, that's fine but don't forget lots of people do. And again, it's no science.

Please, stop your DR bubble talks. It helps no one, canon does need to step back into the game, seriously. They are 6th generation behinds some body at this point. And that was not included three generation of their advantage before others tries to explore on 35mm full frame. The success of BSI R structure from other MFG already blowing sands to their faces and the more advance "RS" version is not far away either.

Sorry if you don't like the sound of this but it's all true here. IQ is a reason people shoot canon and I believe the same reason people leaving them.

Aug 15, 2015 at 07:54 PM

mttran
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p.2 #9 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

For the first and last time. Please, don't revise my replies. I see so many my replies for Monito's posts have been removed in his favor. Thank you.

Aug 15, 2015 at 11:52 PM

KKFung
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p.2 #10 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

I don't want to dig into those scientific DR data too much (though I graduated from engineering) but I can share some actual use of the camera, I have both 1Dx and the brand new 5DsR, I found the raw file from them is quiet different in presenting the dark tone in the first place. In 100% look and shadow push the 5DsR have cleaner shadow, 1Dx still have some banding when push over 3EV. However in actual post processing I seldom need to push that much on 1Dx like the 5DsR's

Here are reference photos, this is not an AB test or some scientific but we can get some idea in actual situation

Raw file open in Lightroom, see the histogram, even the 1Dx have lower exposure, the dark tone of 1Dx looks equal to the 5DsR's (both photos took within 1 minute)
5DsR

1G5A0787-2 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

1Dx

KK__1789-2 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

Finished photo for reference

1G5A0787 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

KK__1789 by KK Fung, 於 Flickr

Aug 16, 2015 at 12:50 AM

mttran
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p.2 #11 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

Nice work, KKFung. I prefer the 1DX look than 5Dsr. 5Dsr highlights is better but over all the shadows was clipped too early that make it look more digital when we look at them from highlights to shadows transition. The smoothness is no longer there while compared them to wider DR cam. I have the same observation with Scott's image on previous post and many online images from 5Dseries as well.

Aug 16, 2015 at 04:48 AM

KKFung
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p.2 #12 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

mttran wrote:
Nice work, KKFung. I prefer the 1DX look than 5Dsr. 5Dsr highlights is better but over all the shadows was clipped too early that make it look more digital when we look at them from highlights to shadows transition. The smoothness is no longer there while compared them to wider DR cam. I have the same observation with Scott's image on previous post and many online images from 5Dseries as well.

5DsR highlight is over exposed, why better?

Aug 16, 2015 at 06:55 AM

MayaTlab
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p.2 #13 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

KKFung wrote:
see the histogram, even the 1Dx have lower exposure, the dark tone of 1Dx looks equal to the 5DsR's

If you're using Adobe's profiles, then it's normal since, for some obscure reason, Adobe decided to give the 5DS(r) profiles a much steeper tone curve, even with Adobe standard, than all other Canon cameras. Something even weirder is happening as the 5DS(r) Adobe Standard profile is the only Adobe Standard profile that I know of that has a different curve from the "Camera raw default" curve (you can visualise this in DNG Profile Editor).

Aug 16, 2015 at 07:34 AM

RustyBug
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p.2 #14 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

+1 @ not scientific, field example ... but a couple things come to my attention.

1) The field of view is not the same. Thus this histo of the wider view contains more dark areas in it. As such, making a determination of the file DR based on the histo may not be reflective of the camera's DR.

2) If we evaluate individual points in the file, we can find that the buildings actually have lighter values in the 1DX file than the 5DsR file (despite the histo suggesting it to be overall darker). And meanwhile, the brighter tonal sky values are darker in the 1DX than the 5DsR.

I think if you evaluate the values of like areas in the images (rather than the overall of the histo @ diff FOV), you'll find a slightly diff observation.

As to the final images ... the 5DsR looks more "pushed", while the 1DX looks more "natural". Noting that the delta in (#2) buildings values has carried through from capture to finished image.

Thanks for sharing.

Aug 16, 2015 at 08:28 AM

OntheRez
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p.2 #15 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

KK
Interesting experiment. Clearly the raw histogram of the 1Dx is dramatically pushed to the left compared to the 5Dsr. The difference in FOV (and I presume different lenses?) does confound the results a bit. Would it be possible to recreate the shot (or something similar) with the exact same FOV and lens? It would remove what might be a significant variable.

Still looking at what you did get, the 1Dx does seem to have produced the more pleasing photo. The blue in the sky is distinctly better and I agree that the 5Dsr lost it somewhere on the bright side of the spectrum. It does seem that Canon's profile for the 5Dsr differs from what we normally expect. OTOH I wonder how much the lights in the bay to the left on the 1Dx shot effected the overall light "available" in the image?

Dan, your summary fits fairly well with what I've been concluding. I recognize this is a "gear" forum so we get arguments from "gear heads"

BUT while the modern DSLR is an extraordinary bit of electro-mechanical wizardry, the end result is NOT technical, measurable, and/or capable of being evaluated with the scientific paradigm. The true test is actually simple but inexpressible. Does the resulting image convey what the artist saw, experienced, felt, believed, etc. at the time of exposure?

Truthfully? When I see a photo I never consider the technical aspects of image (well not at first). I have a gestalt reaction to what I see. I may or may not like it. It's possible that it won't produce much affect at all. It's also most likely that others will respond to it differently. Assuming the photo is "technically correct" it's interesting how wide the variation in response will be.

Now when I'm evaluating a scene or situation considering if there is a photo there or more likely is it possible for me to capture what I see, I do think technically. Many a fine moment has escaped me because I couldn't figure out how to capture the ephemeral. All part of the challenge and reward of this art.

Robert

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:02 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.2 #16 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

OntheRez wrote:
Dan, your summary fits fairly well with what I've been concluding...

Great photography can be and is made on a huge variety of gear. It is useful and interesting to consider real differences among products � one reason I follow FM and not just the Canon forum ��but it is easy to be misled into thinking that certain differences are far, far more consequential than they really are.

Regarding the two photographs shown above, with the fairly radical levels of post-processing exhibited, I think we are evaluating the nature of that post-processing interpretation as much as or more than the qualities of the respective cameras. It is hard to evaluate things such as "naturalness" and so forth when the files have been pushed to this extreme. (Though it is interesting to be reminded just how far away from the original capture a file can be pushed with extreme post processing approaches. And, of course, I do not reject significant work in post where it is appropriate and effective. I do it, too, sometimes.)

Dan

Edited on Aug 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM · View previous versions

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:16 AM

RustyBug
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p.2 #17 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

+1 @ technical is "en route" to the gestalt.

In the end, it will always be your message that you are delivering to your viewer(s). How you get it there ... your pic, your call.

Edited on Aug 16, 2015 at 12:05 PM · View previous versions

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:16 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.2 #18 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ technical is "en route" to the gestalt.

And the notion that "this is a technical forum" (which we hear from time to time), while true, suggests a very limited idea of the purpose of the "technical," perhaps that the technology itself and for its own singular sake is the only thing.

I'm very interested in understanding and mastering the use of photography technology and I put a fair amount of energy into this, but the most fundamental standard of reference for me and virtually all photographers I know and respect is how that technology plays out in the creation of photographs. Is it relevant? Does it make a difference? How significant of a difference? How do I use it? What do I see in my photographs?

Dan

Edited on Aug 16, 2015 at 10:53 AM · View previous versions

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:22 AM

RustyBug
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p.2 #19 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

I think we're all kinda saying the same thing a "a pair of threes", "six of one" and "half a dozen".

We want to understand the diff's on technical, so we can assess to the degree / extent we can harness it (or not fret over it) as regarding a meaningful change in our approach to our beloved craft.

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM

KKFung
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p.2 #20 · Interesting Reference Data on Dynamic Range - 5dsr

Thanks all for comments on my share!

Hopefully I can get another "big enough" DR shots next time with identical lens and identical exposure on both 1Dx and 5DsR at the same timing. Should be very interesting.

Aug 16, 2015 at 10:48 AM

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