artd wrote:
I don't believe that Sony's specs ever made the claim of "enironmental weather sealing." Their intial press release did say the camera was "dust and weather resitatant." Of course "resistant" is one of those meaningless marketing words that gets tossed around rather casually by companies to try create expectations that aren't necessarily correct. (Though the manual itself did state to not expose the camera to rain or moisture.)
As far as Canon's entry-level cameras having weather sealing, I don't know, and since I don't own one I've never had a reason to investigate that. I do know I've seen enough topics discussions of cameras of various levels (and various brands) suffering problems from water intrusion, and people disgruntled because their camera's supposed weather resistance was not what they thought it was. I'll leave that debate to others. (But personally, if my work required shooting in rain, I wouldn't trust anything below a 1D series.)
I was never told to bring my toys in from the rain, unless they happend to have batteries...my father (being an electrician) instilled in me from a very early age that I should never mix water with anything electronic. And he was very deliberate in educating me on the difference between "waterproof" and "water resistant." ...Show more →
Thanks for the clarification on Sony's marketing claims vs design reality, mea culpa.
uhoh7 wrote:
If it's true that number of 5D3 users is anywhere near A7 + Leica M users, I would say that is very encouraging for Sony and Leica, and anyone who wants to build a great alternative to the big prism DSLRs.
I would have guessed 5D3 use would dwarf A7+ Leica M, by video users alone.
Point is this:
Bubble is over.
DSLR market will exist, but is pretty mature. Shares are staked out, and incremental development will follow.
FF EVIL is the niche with growth potential: it should attract some adaptive radiation soon.
5D2: 2902
5D3: 2708
D800 + E: 1822
Sony A7 + r: 611
Leica M (All of them): 208
Sony A7 series + M series = 819
Literally, 3.3x more 5D3 users on flickr daily than ALL of the A7 series and M series COMBINED. What a huge surge in mirrorless cameras! #sarcasm
Extrapolations: We really need to keep in mind that despite what forum goers say about mirrorless being the next coming of Jesus - the market has shown no large desire to move into the segment. Nor are they showing any real desire to invest in Sony. Keep in mind that this is just on flickr, which is a photography enthusiast website and likely more skewed towards the fredmiranda/photoforum aspects than the entirety of the marketplace.
All of this to say that I still think Canon should move into the FF MILC segment and release a proper camera that isn't a poorly designed and poorly functioning toy, like the manufacturer that people continue to name drop as the savior of photography without any evidence of that being the case. ever.
5D2: 2902
5D3: 2708
D800 + E: 1822
Sony A7 + r: 611
Leica M (All of them): 208
Sony A7 series + M series = 819
Literally, 3.3x more 5D3 users on flickr daily than ALL of the A7 series and M series COMBINED. What a huge surge in mirrorless cameras! #sarcasm
Extrapolations: We really need to keep in mind that despite what forum goers say about mirrorless being the next coming of Jesus - the market has shown no large desire to move into the segment. Nor are they showing any real desire to invest in Sony. Keep in mind that this is just on flickr, which is a photography enthusiast website and likely more skewed towards the fredmiranda/photoforum aspects than the entirety of the marketplace.
All of this to say that I still think Canon should move into the FF MILC segment and release a proper camera that isn't a poorly designed and poorly functioning toy, like the manufacturer that people continue to name drop as the savior of photography without any evidence of that being the case. ever.
Ummm...those A7 series cameras might be coming from Canon's revenue which has been falling lately. I'm totally positive Canon would love those A7 series sales.
Glenn NK wrote:
It's generated a lot of talk about Canon. It has to do with the awareness of a product/company. If you're forgotten from the public's mind, you are gone. People will get over the "what was that all about?" but the name Canon will stick in one's memory.
Example: How many people here recall what Watergate was all about (or better yet, know the details)? Yet, the name lingers on and it's being used as a metaphor for something that went wrong. Just like the name Waterloo.
Canon laid a marker down though, someone made the call to advertise in the NYT and not the photography media. For the photography media this must have been a bitter pill to swallow, as 1) they didn't see any of Canon's advertising revenue and 2) the photography media had to report it, as Canon is the biggest player in the industry. I can't help wondering if Canon was trying to get a message across to more than just the public?
chez wrote:
Ummm...those A7 series cameras might be coming from Canon's revenue which has been falling lately. I'm totally positive Canon would love those A7 series sales.
You don't suspect existing Nex 5,6 ,7 and the Alpha mount owners, may have bought any of the A7/r cameras then?
It's also odd, that one of the more renowned quality adapter manufacturers, Novoflex, has dragged its feet a tad in producing an intelligent EF to FE adapter, in spite of the reported exodus/demand from Canon owners
chez wrote:
Ummm...those A7 series cameras might be coming from Canon's revenue which has been falling lately. I'm totally positive Canon would love those A7 series sales.
Clearly Canon would be better off targeting the lingering 5D2 users with a dSLR that shows benefits in use for landscapes. There are far more of them than the potential conquest market of MILCs.
Jon Tainton wrote:
You don't suspect existing Nex 5,6 ,7 and the Alpha mount owners, may have bought any of the A7/r cameras then?
It's also odd, that one of the more renowned quality adapter manufacturers, Novoflex, has dragged its feet a tad in producing an intelligent EF to FE adapter, in spite of the reported exodus/demand from Canon owners
Does it really matter where they came from. Bottom line is they did not buy Canon and Canon camera revenue has been dropping.
kezeka wrote:
Clearly Canon would be better off targeting the lingering 5D2 users with a dSLR that shows benefits in use for landscapes. There are far more of them than the potential conquest market of MILCs.
I'd love for Canon to come out with a targeted landscape camera, but it has not to date, at least not to rival the Nikon / Sony full frame cameras.
My biggest concern with Canon's high pixel large DR camera is the price Canon would be asking.
Cursory observation from my 12 day Colorado road trip. I encountered numerous other Canon shooters. Most of them had a "I wish Canon would..." list of things they want from Canon. I met several shooters who had the new Nikon d810. They were just happy.
I myself shot with my a7r for almost anything in the 24-70 range and other focal lengths with my 5d3's. In processing the photos from the trip, I find myself wishing that Canon would get some more dynamic range in their sensors. The extra of the Sony/Nikon cameras sure is nice but i still love the controls of the Canon the best.
Count me in the "Please make answer the D800 series with a high megapixel camera with more DR" camp (and that's NOT a gigantic 1 series body please!). The d800 series has been out since Feb 2012 and Canon have not produced a comparable product yet. Sigh.
If you can't be happy with any full frame camera on the market in the last several years, then the problem is not the camera. You would all rather turn to test charts to prove your points rather than enjoy the AMAZING photography that has been put out for far longer than any one here has even been alive. You people are insane with all of your bickering. If you do not know how to get around limited DR, then learn because there are several ways to do so....and increasing shadows 600% and then whining about banding isn't one of them
Kannalaphoto wrote:
If you can't be happy with any full frame camera on the market in the last several years, then the problem is not the camera. You would all rather turn to test charts to prove your points rather than enjoy the AMAZING photography that has been put out for far longer than any one here has even been alive. You people are insane with all of your bickering. If you do not know how to get around limited DR, then learn because there are several ways to do so....and increasing shadows 600% and then whining about banding isn't one of them ...Show more →
So tell us what you shoot with. Is it something more than a 5d? If so, why? Surely the 5d could produce amazing images and if you can't, then there must be something wrong with you.
My bet is you use the latest camera out there with some nice lens.
kezeka wrote:
Go look on the Flickr camera finder at the number of sony a7 and leica M users. The total combined number of all a7 users and all M users is smaller than the 5D3 user base alone. I honestly don't think there is nearly as much demand for those cameras as the alt forum users want to believe.
That's not to say that canon couldn't create a market for a FF mirror less camera that has decent battery life, excellent build quality, great layout, and actual AF. But right now, they don't appear interested in screwing about with sony's minuscule slice of the pie....Show more →
The Canon 5D3 has been around for three years. The A7 for about one year. Given the lack of a full lens system for the A7 I would think those numbers suggest FF mirroless will be a force to be reckoned with in a couple of years, not just a passing fad.
Glenn NK wrote
It's generated a lot of talk about Canon. It has to do with the awareness of a product/company. If you're forgotten from the public's mind, you are gone. People will get over the "what was that all about?" but the name Canon will stick in one's memory.
Example: How many people here recall what Watergate was all about (or better yet, know the details)? Yet, the name lingers on and it's being used as a metaphor for something that went wrong. Just like the name Waterloo.
So it seems nobody has yet found anything of substance here. I'm not into marketing but it does seem extremely strange: in the one non-targeted forum I've seen (Youtube) Canon USA got a universal barracking. In the targeted fora I've seen -- like this one -- the Canon bashers just get more gleeful and the Canon defenders more thin-skinned. Maybe this is in fact good marketing and I just don't know better. And perhaps I shouldn't conflate Canon with Canon USA. Its not like this was Canon's campaign, or that Canon USA can announce products Canon don't have.
BTW, those were odd examples to choose. Yes, Watergate and Waterloo have become part of the common lexicon -- but we only remember them as disasters. Not as a victory for the press or for Wellington and Blucher. No idea where the victory is in Canon See Impossible.
To me, the interesting point of this is that the 5D "marks" have such statistics, for "dumb" cameras that have no easy connectivity/direct upload capacity for the wired generation.
chez wrote:
Does it really matter where they came from.
Well if most buyers of the A7/R were from within the Sony ecosystem, then anyone advancing a case of migration from another camera maker would appear to have their own personal agenda.
chez wrote:
Bottom line is they did not buy Canon and Canon camera revenue has been dropping.
Looking at the bigger picture and A7/r owners clearly didn't buy Nikon/Pentax/Fuji/Olympus either and as far as I'm aware those camera makers revenues have dropped too, which might imply the stills camera market is now at a mature stage.
kezeka wrote:
5D2: 2902
5D3: 2708
D800 + E: 1822
Sony A7 + r: 611
Leica M (All of them): 208
Sony A7 series + M series = 819
Literally, 3.3x more 5D3 users on flickr daily than ALL of the A7 series and M series COMBINED. What a huge surge in mirrorless cameras! #sarcasm
I'm actually surprised it's as many as that, the A7 is the very first iteration of a new product category* and already has 10% of 5D2/3 usage. And Sony are a company that doesn't have anywhere near the reputation for photographic equipment that Canon built up over the decades, so there are many potential customers who are avoiding the A7 because of that. If Canon had put out an identical product then it's share would be far higher just by association with the brand.
*(mirrorless has existed but not really in the premium full frame way)
kezeka wrote:
Extrapolations: We really need to keep in mind that despite what forum goers say about mirrorless being the next coming of Jesus - the market has shown no large desire to move into the segment.
The relevant extrapolation is that A7 usage has gone from 0-10% in a year, we'll see what happens next year when more bodies and lenses are available before drawing any firm conclusions.
kezeka wrote:
All of this to say that I still think Canon should move into the FF MILC segment and release a proper camera that isn't a poorly designed and poorly functioning toy
I've owned and used* both an A7R and 5D3 side by side so I'm speaking from a position of experience. Neither resemble a "toy" in any way with regards to build quality. "Poorly functioning" could be applied to either depending on what your priorities are.
*I say "used" because having experienced the future of everything-but-sports cameras, the 5D3 went straight on eBay.
+1 for Matt's statement above - especially like that he used both camera types for a valid comparison.
This past weekend I shot with two friends of mine waterfalls in PA. I was using my A7R with Canon lenses, my friends were using 5D MKII and 5D MkIII cameras. Often the situations we photographed had a wide range from bright sunlit foliage areas to dark rock areas benear the waterfalls. My friends used bracketing and HDR to get this all right in one photo. I simply took one shot with the A7R, this was it . Post processing at home was easy - no shadow recovery needed, all the needed information was in one single shot due to the high DR provided by the sensor.
Not to mention that I had to carry much less camera weight, and the A7R fitted easily in one of my bags.
Kannalaphoto wrote:
If you can't be happy with any full frame camera on the market in the last several years, then the problem is not the camera. You would all rather turn to test charts to prove your points rather than enjoy the AMAZING photography that has been put out for far longer than any one here has even been alive. You people are insane with all of your bickering. If you do not know how to get around limited DR, then learn because there are several ways to do so....and increasing shadows 600% and then whining about banding isn't one of them ...Show more →
