zlatko wrote:
Or I can put on a rational hat and realize that the SL1 is not designed for the typical 5D3 user. It's designed for the typical SL1 user. Not *every* SL1 user in the world, but the typical one, at least in Canon's estimation. That typical SL1 user does not want AFMA or a slew of other features, does not want to use them or hear about them, or see them in the menus. That typical SL1 user may look at the already stripped down SL1 menus and already feel that it's wa-a-a-a-y too complicated, with far too many things they need to know just to make a photo....Show more →
There could always be some "master mode" or whatever, where these features could pop up. Also, many 5D3 users (or other "serious model" users) use SL1 as a walkaround camera, and you are the proof to yourself. I also carry SL1 when one 1D brick is too much.
But the lower model just can't have those features... Remember first digital Rebel? It was a 10D in a plastic body with many features disabled. There was even custom firmware to re-enable them. The ubercomplicated things like mirror lockup or ISO3200. With history like this, it's hard to give Canon the benefit of doubt and not use the terrible cr-word
DtEW wrote:
Actually, the sensor oil issue extends to the D800 as well, but perhaps not as prevalent as the D600 debacle. I have a shooting friend who had to send back his D800 no less than three times to resolve this issue, not to mention being screwed by Nikon who managed to send him somebody else's refurb. He has since gotten rid of his D800 at a loss and went on to a A7R.
I also have a cousin who has a D800 (yes, the D800 was very popular) who suffers because he tells me used D800 values are down in the dumps (this was prior to the D810)....Show more →
...funny guy....you one friend's oil issue constitutes extending to the whole line...
i have a friend, who's cousins friend has a second cousin with a sister that says you are full of it
mttran wrote:
I am wonder how many canon bodies be flooded on craigslist and B&S forum if canon had 15 stops DR bodies releasing next month. For sure, you can count me one. It is amusing just to think all canon DR cheer leaders dancing all year long with their tip toes. At this forum, we have seen so many impossible thing has happen to many individual
There is barely anyone left to switch. Retro has told is that most have switched already. So many in fact, that use lenses are dropping in value rapidly. I'm assuming he has done a thorough analysis and surveys of the market situation, since he wouldn't pass off his own guesses as facts.
Imagemaster wrote:
Isn't it amusing reading all the complaining about DR from Canon bodies not being up to the D800, while at the same time on the Nikon Forum, Nikon owners are complaining about impact damage accusations from Nikon when D800 owners send their cameras in for repair.
mttran wrote:
I am wonder how many canon bodies be flooded on craigslist and B&S forum if canon had 15 stops DR bodies releasing next month. For sure, you can count me one. It is amusing just to think all canon DR cheer leaders dancing all year long with their tip toes. At this forum, we have seen so many impossible thing has happen to many individual
jctriguy wrote:
There is barely anyone left to switch. Retro has told is that most have switched already. So many in fact, that use lenses are dropping in value rapidly. I'm assuming he has done a thorough analysis and surveys of the market situation, since he wouldn't pass off his own guesses as facts.
Interesting. I just returned from a two week vacation in Italy; Tuscany and Venice. Canon DSLR were by far the most common cameras, and a lot of people had cameras. The next most common seemed to be super-zoom/bridge cameras, followed by Nikon DSLR. I also saw some Fuji X (X-E1/-E2, X-T1), Sony DSLR (not A7/R/S), and Oly m4/3.
Of course, most photographers don't follow FM or other sites, and so most photographers are probably blissfully unaware of the tempest in our online teapot.
P.S. I follow Canon and Alt lens prices fairly closely, and there's no evidence that Canon used lens prices are dropping, or have recently dropped.
chez wrote:
I think many have supplemented their Canon gear with the Sony A7R. There is no need to sell your collection of Canon mount lenses. This gives you the best of both worlds...great sensor with great glass.
When you are a member of the herd moving away from the main body, it may seem like "many" are diverging. But to the main herd, it seems only that "some" are making the transition.
Gunzorro wrote:
When you are a member of the herd moving away from the main body, it may seem like "many" are diverging. But to the main herd, it seems only that "some" are making the transition.
No one really knows, but my understanding is the A7 series of cameras sold more than anticipated by Sony. How much of that is compared to your herd I don't know.
chez wrote:
No one really knows, but my understanding is the A7 series of cameras sold more than anticipated by Sony. How much of that is compared to your herd I don't know.
"More than they expected" is a poor metric. If they really did sell 3x as much as expected, doesn't say much for their understanding of the market...
jctriguy wrote:
"More than they expected" is a poor metric. If they really did sell 3x as much as expected, doesn't say much for their understanding of the market...
Better to underestimate and be pleasantly surprised than totally blow the market ( EOS-M ) and crawl away with your tail between your legs.
mttran wrote:
It is the same feeling for anyone who stepping down to lower series from 1dseries, but they all great camera and it's designed to serve their purpose. I really like the size of A7series, you don't need a tank for best IQ.
I'm aware of the 1D series build quality and I can't find anything unreasonable with the description of Toy-like build quality for an A7 series, but I'm struggling to quantify the gulf implied by your stepping down analogy. Do you mean a Felix Baumgartner type step?
Jon Tainton wrote:
I'm aware of the 1D series build quality and I can't find anything unreasonable with the description of Toy-like build quality for an A7 series, but I'm struggling to quantify the gulf implied by your stepping down analogy. Do you mean a Felix Baumgartner type step?
Hi Jon, there is no other best IQ toys out there beside A7series can be used with any available glasses from most MFG. Even D810 can't, A7series is the best tool available to explore multiple optic platform.
jctriguy wrote:
"More than they expected" is a poor metric. If they really did sell 3x as much as expected, doesn't say much for their understanding of the market...
As I recall, Sony targeted the A7 series at their Nex 5,6 and 7 user base, who frustrated with native lens quality were starting to leave for the stable camera systems of Canon/Nikon/Fuji/Olympus/Pentax/Panasonic. The A7 FE mount also offered somewhere for the long suffering Alpha mount users to park their Alpha lenses, albeit via an adaptor.
Cunningly the bait was also laid down for Leica M and R lens owners, a lot of RF film shooters finally had a cheap entry ticket into FF digital. Though M lens owners soon discovered issues with the A7 series sensor; colour shading, smearing and the deal breaker - startled expressions of people reacting to shutter noise. Leica benefitted in hindsight, as many ditched their A7's and finally ponied up for a digital MM/ME/M9/M240.
One indication of how well global A7's sales were going at one stage, was the desperate decision by Sony to offer their remaining employees the chance to buy an A series model at 50% RRP. The said Sony employees well aware of Sony's track record, production values and short term commitment to camera mounts, promptly offloaded their boxed unopened bargains onto the 2nd hand market. All good for Sony's sales figures though, if not for reputable retailers selling the A7 and disillusioned owners taking the hit on already depressed A7 used prices.
I guess Sony was surprised, when Nikon D800 owners jumped ship to gain access to Canon's 17&24 TS lens and decent Live view.
I'm not sure how much money has been made by Sony on Zeiss FE mount lens sales, but Zeiss have had to publicly defend their reputation by explaining the problems inherent with the dimensions of the FE mount/sensor for native lens designs.
Finally, Canon on balance, have done well out of the A7's from increased demand of tilt shift/macro/ 24-70/4 and 16-35/4 lens sales. More intriguingly their stock has risen in some quarters, by virtue of the old FD manual film lenses on the A7's proving to have pretty decent IQ.
Please feel free to correct any omissions or glaring errors
Jon Tainton wrote:
Cunningly the bait was also laid down for Leica M and R lens owners, a lot of RF film shooters finally had a cheap entry ticket into FF digital. Though M lens owners soon discovered issues with the A7 series sensor; colour shading, smearing and the deal breaker - startled expressions of people reacting to shutter noise. Leica benefitted in hindsight, as many ditched their A7's and finally ponied up for a digital MM/ME/M9/M240.
This is partially correct. Especially Leica wide angle lenses have issues on the A7 sensor because of the thicker DSLR sensor glass cover which Sony uses for its Exmor FF sensors. 50 mm and above Leica lenses work fine to my knowledge. It is interesting to see some Leica glass development - the M lenses which work fine on the A7 series increased in price quite a bit whereas lenses which suffer from some issues with this sensor remained constant or dropped a little. I was recently in a Leica store where I was told that Leica registered an increased demand for some M lenses whereas M camera sales remained fairly constant. So yes, Leica seems to profit from new mirrorless camera systems. Instead of replacing A7 series cameras with M bodies, it is more that M series owners have in addition ponied up with the A7 series and use both (the M series more for the 35 mm and other wide angle lenses).
One indication of how well global A7's sales were going at one stage, was the desperate decision by Sony to offer their remaining employees the chance to buy an A series model at 50% RRP. The said Sony employees well aware of Sony's track record, production values and short term commitment to camera mounts, promptly offloaded their boxed unopened bargains onto the 2nd hand market. All good for Sony's sales figures though, if not for reputable retailers selling the A7 and disillusioned owners taking the hit on already depressed A7 used prices.
I guess Sony was surprised, when Nikon D800 owners jumped ship to gain access to Canon's 17&24 TS lens and decent Live view....Show more →
Sony tried hard to get into this market with this camera and even gave for free the Metabones adapter for Canon mount in countries like Australia. IMO the A7 series sold in high quantities worldwide, even the price for the cameras dropped quickly it is still a big success for Sony.
I know some who only bought Canon TSE lenses to use them with Sony cameras - photographers who don't have any other Canon gear. I don't know anybody who switched from D800 to Canon for TSE lens usage, but it is possible. But I know a handful of landscape photographers who jumped from Canon to Nikon with the D800(E) and now D810. In fact I got my 24 TSE lens used from a landscape photographer who made this switch and had to sell his lens.
I'm not sure how much money has been made by Sony on Zeiss FE mount lens sales, but Zeiss have had to publicly defend their reputation by explaining the problems inherent with the dimensions of the FE mount/sensor for native lens designs.
The current FE Sony/Zeiss lenses seem still to incorporate DSLR lens designs which doesn't make them a lot smaller unfortunately. Zeiss realized this and introduced the Loxia lens line with manual focus prime lenses for the E-mount. Even those are not fully redesigned lenses and still not rangefinder size lenses. Currently there is a market niche for affordable, good quality small MF and AF based lenses which can be used with the A7 series.
Finally, Canon on balance, have done well out of the A7's from increased demand of tilt shift/macro/ 24-70/4 and 16-35/4 lens sales. More intriguingly their stock has risen in some quarters, by virtue of the old FD manual film lenses on the A7's proving to have pretty decent IQ.
I doubt that Canon profited from the A7 with 16-35/4 sales since Sony/Zeiss also released a 16-35/4 lens recently which is slightly better than the Canon equivalent lens. Agree with the demand for TSE lenses from Sony users (see my point above). FD lenses are available on the used camera market and no longer sold by Canon directly. Not sure if Canon's camera segment did so well since a while.....definitely several EF and L lens prices started dropping due to lower demand.
retrofocus wrote:
This is partially correct. Especially Leica wide angle lenses have issues on the A7 sensor because of the thicker DSLR sensor glass cover which Sony uses for its Exmor FF sensors. 50 mm and above Leica lenses work fine to my knowledge. It is interesting to see some Leica glass development - the M lenses which work fine on the A7 series increased in price quite a bit whereas lenses which suffer from some issues with this sensor remained constant or dropped a little. I was recently in a Leica store where I was told that Leica registered an increased demand for some M lenses whereas M camera sales remained fairly constant. So yes, Leica seems to profit from new mirrorless camera systems. Instead of replacing A7 series cameras with M bodies, it is more that M series owners have in addition ponied up with the A7 series and use both (the M series more for the 35 mm and other wide angle lenses).
Sony tried hard to get into this market with this camera and even gave for free the Metabones adapter for Canon mount in countries like Australia. IMO the A7 series sold in high quantities worldwide, even the price for the cameras dropped quickly it is still a big success for Sony.
I know some who only bought Canon TSE lenses to use them with Sony cameras - photographers who don't have any other Canon gear. I don't know anybody who switched from D800 to Canon for TSE lens usage, but it is possible. But I know a handful of landscape photographers who jumped from Canon to Nikon with the D800(E) and now D810. In fact I got my 24 TSE lens used from a landscape photographer who made this switch and had to sell his lens.
The current FE Sony/Zeiss lenses seem still to incorporate DSLR lens designs which doesn't make them a lot smaller unfortunately. Zeiss realized this and introduced the Loxia lens line with manual focus prime lenses for the E-mount. Even those are not fully redesigned lenses and still not rangefinder size lenses. Currently there is a market niche for affordable, good quality small MF and AF based lenses which can be used with the A7 series.
I doubt that Canon profited from the A7 with 16-35/4 sales since Sony/Zeiss also released a 16-35/4 lens recently which is slightly better than the Canon equivalent lens. Agree with the demand for TSE lenses from Sony users (see my point above). FD lenses are available on the used camera market and no longer sold by Canon directly. Not sure if Canon's camera segment did so well since a while.....definitely several EF and L lens prices started dropping due to lower demand. ...Show more →
Please put a big 'caution, BS follows here' at the start of your posts.
In your opinion, worldwide sales were excellent. This isn't something you can have an opinion about. Sony has those facts somewhere and might or might not choose to publicly release them.
Lens prices are falling for canon on the used market. Really?? Please cite examples for this. Again, this isn't something for opinions, but a measuarable fact. JColwell stated above that he has seen no recent price drops of any significance.
brian_sp wrote: ...funny guy....you one friend's oil issue constitutes extending to the whole line...
i have a friend, who's cousins friend has a second cousin with a sister that says you are full of it
I actually could not care less what your assessment might be in these fanboy gearsturbation lands (that I have chosen to largely remove myself from). These word-of-mouth anecdotes from trusted people I know and fraternize with in real life are enough for me and anybody else in those people's spheres-of-influence to form their own opinions... ones much firmer than anything that can be gleaned online.
I am merely writing to share what I know, and what an-otherwise-stranger reader takes away from this is really going to be a synthesis dependent upon all the other things they hear online and in real life. I am merely adding a data point. You should hope there aren't more data points. And you have shown yourself to be somebody who has a reflexive and indignant reaction to a possibility you can't accept.
Jon Tainton wrote:
I'm aware of the 1D series build quality and I can't find anything unreasonable with the description of Toy-like build quality for an A7 series, but I'm struggling to quantify the gulf implied by your stepping down analogy. Do you mean a Felix Baumgartner type step?
I'd disagree with the "toy-like build" assessment. I have found the build quality rather solid. Certainly not up to the 1D series, but to me it seems on par with DSLRs in the same price range. (Mine has certainly survived some abuse too, including a fall onto concrete from about 5 feet up).
That said, it is a little odd to be comparing an A7 series to a 1D series..
I also carry SL1 when one 1D brick is too much.
...funny guy....you one friend's oil issue constitutes extending to the whole line...
