snapsy wrote:
Mint used D800's are going for $1700. For the $6k difference many shooters could match their entire Canon lens collection with Nikon without selling a single one of their Canon lenses.
Not quite. There simply is no match in Nikon's lineup for the 17mm TS-E. Plus, Nikon's 24mm TS is not as good as Canon's. My guess is there are a few other folks that have fondness for certain other Canon lenses that would not match up so well in a Nikon mount.
That said, I think the cost issue is a red herring. It's likely Canon will come out with a high megapixel 5D series camera, too. They'll probably just wait until everyone who's willing to spend the money for a 1DsX has done so first.
gdanmitchell wrote:
It is virtually certain that Canon will produce something that equals or exceeds the capabilities of the Nikon and Sony cameras in regards to potential image quality.
The normal and typical process in the industry is that Brand A comes out with something really cool. Then Brand B comes out with something even cooler. The Brand A comes out with something that surpasses that. Perhaps Brand C pops up out of nowhere. Brand B and A respond with even better stuff.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
In the same way that I would generally advise Canon users to be patient and resist the temptation to switch to or augment with another brand (with a few rare exceptions) that has introduced some new improvements, should Canon come out with this speculative 46MP sensor camera I would urge Nikon and Sony users to stick to what they have....Show more →
Dan, I'm also conservative in that I've stayed with my gear, which is pretty great for my needs, but the temptations have been mounting lately. I've chosen to learn better processing techniques, an area I needed to work on rather than jump to the latest tech. I still have much to learn but the improvement in my processing has probably made a bigger difference than the latest sensor tech. And those skills will remain with each new piece of gear. But it is tempting, as the images I've seen from the A7r are quite nice. I may still pick one up as I feel the 5D4 is still some time away.
gdanmitchell wrote:
It is virtually certain that Canon will produce something that equals or exceeds the capabilities of the Nikon and Sony cameras in regards to potential image quality.
The normal and typical process in the industry is that Brand A comes out with something really cool. Then Brand B comes out with something even cooler. The Brand A comes out with something that surpasses that. Perhaps Brand C pops up out of nowhere. Brand B and A respond with even better stuff.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
In the same way that I would generally advise Canon users to be patient and resist the temptation to switch to or augment with another brand (with a few rare exceptions) that has introduced some new improvements, should Canon come out with this speculative 46MP sensor camera I would urge Nikon and Sony users to stick to what they have....Show more →
The Sony A7R served as a bridge for many Canon shooters looking for higher DR and resolution. That's an exception to your rule as many of us have kept our investment in lenses while taking advantage of superior sensor technology.
Fred Miranda wrote:
The Sony A7R served as a bridge for many Canon shooters looking for higher DR and resolution. That's an exception to your rule as many of us have kept our investment in lenses while taking advantage of superior sensor technology.
And, there will be very late adopters like myself that might grab one of these used A7R's at lower than initial prices. I've greatly benefited from this kind of 'trickle down' bonus and have no issues doing so
Fred Miranda wrote:
The Sony A7R served as a bridge for many Canon shooters looking for higher DR and resolution. That's an exception to your rule as many of us have kept our investment in lenses while taking advantage of superior sensor technology.
Fred:
There is no question that the Sony proposition is a compelling one for many folks — greater sensor resolution, improved DR, smaller body, ability to use a range of existing lenses via adapters. Among photographers I know, you are not the only one who chose to get one and who feels that it was worth the price, and I understand that. A couple of landscape photographer friends are using the Sony with Canon lenses and adapters or using the Nikons. Some street photographers are also using the A7r for its compact size, great IQ, and inconspicuous appearance.
Clearly Sony's choice to put a great sensor in a small, relatively inexpensive mirrorless body that accepts a wide range of lenses was a very smart one.
I also understand that, as a previous poster put it, "the temptations have been mounting lately."
Despite the compelling and wonderful features of the Sony A7r and the Nikon D800/D810 bodies (either as replacements for Canon systems or to augment Canon lenses), the extent to which moving to them in the interim between their introduction and Canon's eventual upgrade is a good value proposition will vary depending upon a lot of factors: how large one thinks the improvement in IQ is, how significant that improvement is relative to the work that one actually produces, to what extent the minuses outweigh the pluses, one's patience, and how deep the photographer's pockets are. For some, the answer is "move now." For others, the answer is "patience."
There is no single right answer to this sort of thing, and the issue isn't just the contemporary Canon versus Sony/Nikon one. The extreme points of view are "any improvement is worth any cost" and "no improvement has any value." For almost all photographers, their "truth" lies somewhere between the extremes.
Dan
(For those who are interested in such things, today's "Morning Musings" post at my blog is on this topic.)
gdanmitchell wrote:
It is virtually certain that Canon will produce something that equals or exceeds the capabilities of the Nikon and Sony cameras in regards to potential image quality.
I would have agreed with this statement a few years ago but as time moves forward I think the level of certainty is a little in doubt. I don't think many would have anticipated Canon taking this long. It's also unclear what Canon's position is on whether they think they actually need to respond; for MP I imagine they do but the DR question is another matter. As for the tipping point for system switchers (or at least dual-system straddling), Canon sure makes it hard with all the great lenses they've been releasing lately. I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
snapsy wrote:
I would have agreed with this statement a few years ago but as time moves forward I think the level of certainty is a little in doubt. I don't think many would have anticipated Canon taking this long. It's also unclear what Canon's position is on whether they think they actually need to respond; for MP I imagine they do but the DR question is another matter. As for the tipping point for system switchers (or at least dual-system straddling), Canon sure makes it hard with all the great lenses they've been releasing lately. I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
I agree. They are focusing on lenses first and bodies as a second priority. That being said, this 46MP rumor seems very likely true. I can also bet the 5D mk4 will have the sensor tech but wouldn't be released until either late in the year (2015 or 2016). Release higher end cameras first, then trickle down the technology.
And New York seems like a much bigger market to introduce it to. remember the EOS 1DC? They released that new line in LA. So NY seems plausible.
I think the issue with the $9k price is it would need to replace all cameras you need. i.e. let's say it's 46mpx, good DR, etc, but it has 4 fps. Then you would still need a 'sport' body. That means more money and a lot of weight when you could get a lot of bang out of two body solution of a 7DMII and an A7R both in terms of cost and weight. I mean, a used A7R and a new 7DMII would leave you enough money to almost get a 400DOII compared to a $9k body. Note, I don't do a lot of portraits where you would want an A7R with AF.
Schlotkins wrote:
I think the issue with the $9k price is it would need to replace all cameras you need. i.e. let's say it's 46mpx, good DR, etc, but it has 4 fps. Then you would still need a 'sport' body. That means more money and a lot of weight when you could get a lot of bang out of two body solution of a 7DMII and an A7R both in terms of cost and weight. I mean, a used A7R and a new 7DMII would leave you enough money to almost get a 400DOII compared to a $9k body. Note, I don't do a lot of portraits where you would want an A7R with AF.
I don't do any photography where I would want to interact with as poorly designed a camera as the A7 series. But hey, that's just my preference on owning cameras that are actually designed to be used by people with normal sized hands. #mostlysarcasm
artd wrote:
That said, my guess is that after the mythical 1DsX becomes reality, a high-megapixel 5DIV body should appear later down the road...by which point I will probably be ready to finally replace my 5DII and relegate the A7r to backup camera and vacation duty
Let's hope so. Especially that we don't have to use Canon for max resolution and Sony for the DR we are used to now
My guess is, however, that at the time a 5DIV comes to market, there may be other options also avilable from Sony.
snapsy wrote:
I would have agreed with this statement a few years ago but as time moves forward I think the level of certainty is a little in doubt. I don't think many would have anticipated Canon taking this long. It's also unclear what Canon's position is on whether they think they actually need to respond; for MP I imagine they do but the DR question is another matter. As for the tipping point for system switchers (or at least dual-system straddling), Canon sure makes it hard with all the great lenses they've been releasing lately. I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
Plus, since most on this forum are stills photographers (many of whom openly abhor the inclusion of video features in DSLRs), it is easy to overlook the intense pressure Canon is under, not only from other DSLR makers, but especially Red and Black Magic, to retain dominance of its leading edge in small DSLR and DSLR-like cameras for commercial purposes. I'm impressed how well Canon does at juggling more balls than any other manufacturer, staying competitive (it not outright dominant) in so many imaging arenas.
IMO, the lenses are critical to upgrade to the highest affordable degree before introducing new image capture devices.
snapsy wrote:
I would have agreed with this statement a few years ago but as time moves forward I think the level of certainty is a little in doubt. I don't think many would have anticipated Canon taking this long. It's also unclear what Canon's position is on whether they think they actually need to respond; for MP I imagine they do but the DR question is another matter. As for the tipping point for system switchers (or at least dual-system straddling), Canon sure makes it hard with all the great lenses they've been releasing lately. I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
I've been wondering the same, but I still have this view that 90% of photographers never really hit the internet forums and only 30% of those care about DR.
So they might lose 1-5% of their market and save £1bn in not making a new plant (or whatever). That might seem like a good strategy to the bean counters - or maybe they figure that they'd prefer to build it with "cash" and to do that they need to do it over a longer time .. (not sure if that makes sense with a company like Canon) or...?
snapsy wrote:
I would have agreed with this statement a few years ago but as time moves forward I think the level of certainty is a little in doubt. I don't think many would have anticipated Canon taking this long. It's also unclear what Canon's position is on whether they think they actually need to respond; for MP I imagine they do but the DR question is another matter. As for the tipping point for system switchers (or at least dual-system straddling), Canon sure makes it hard with all the great lenses they've been releasing lately. I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
snapsy wrote:
I almost wonder if part of their strategy is to compete first on lenses before bodies, which isn't a bad strategy IMO.
So long as they don't make too many so fed up they stop buying entirely, yeah lenses might make sense in that it costs them nothing in sensor fabs and they lock people in more. AF and lenses are a cheap way for them to push forward. Sensors cost money to improve.
I do get an increasingly bad feeling that they have gone so far down this line of thinking that better DR might not be in the 5D4 or maybe not even the 5D5. Anyway, if I don't hear about a 5D4 having improved DR soon, I'm afraid it's gonna be a bunch of non-Canon expenditures for me pretty soon though. Of course, why are they delaying a higher MP cam so long if not to improve DR? So maybe that implies some hope for it? Then again, why was the 7D2 so delayed? It turns out not to have been for a new sensor process.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Despite the compelling and wonderful features of the Sony A7r and the Nikon D800/D810 bodies (either as replacements for Canon systems or to augment Canon lenses), the extent to which moving to them in the interim between their introduction and Canon's eventual upgrade is a good value proposition will vary depending upon a lot of factors: how large one thinks the improvement in IQ is, how significant that improvement is relative to the work that one actually produces, to what extent the minuses outweigh the pluses, one's patience, and how deep the photographer's pockets are. For some, the answer is "move now." For others, the answer is "patience." ...Show more →
But the point is that "augmenting" a Canon system with an A7r is conceptually different than "moving" to another system. Photographers like Fred or myself have chosen to augment our existing Canon systems, not move from them. Tempted to change systems altogether? In such an instance I think the "patience" argument is sensible. But tempted to augment your existing system with an A7r? If you have the money, why not? If you're still retaining your Canon system, you're not incurring any minuses. You're expanding your options, not limiting them. Many people are willing to spend $2000 for a single lens that gives them an additional shooting option, so what's so strange about spending that much on an additional camera body which gives you more shooting options? I can still pack my Canon DSLR just as easily as I did before if I want to. And heck, an A7r is even smaller and packs easier than a lot of lenses I own.
So by the time Canon does come out with a more affordable, higher megapixel DSLR next year, and even if that DSLR matches the present DR of an Exmor, the A7r will still continue to be an augmentation of my kit, if for no other reason the fact that as a mirrorless camera it's going to be lighter and less obtrusive for the times when I desire such a thing. And in the meantime I'll have gotten a ton of usage and great photos out of it.
JesseShotland wrote:
9k is too much. ANything over 4k is too much to be honest. Unless they're going to break barriers.
If it has better video in every way than the 1DC, 10fps 46MP, exmor-DR then I think it could justify the 8-9k price. It would be the best DSLR ever made in every single way ever pretty much (well OK other than still a few fps slower than the very fastest of the fast cams, but whatever, close enough), couple with, IMO, the best UI and best line-up of lenses. Even at 8fps, perhaps more realistic, with all the rest it might justify it reasonably, although it leaves a touch less room for the 5 series to keep 6fps that's the only thing, but 8fps vs 6fps might be enough of a difference for that to not matter.
So I do think there are ways it could land at 8k and yet actually seem like a solid value and for their not to be anything to fault about it.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
No rumour, it is a Sony sensor.
Canon is already using Sony's 1" sensor. Most medium format players are using Sony's 50MP medium format CMOS sensor on their cameras. Nikon has been using Sony's FF CMOS sensor.
There are rumors that Sony has developed a higher MP FF sensor soon to be released. (~46MP)
So, there is a possibility that Canon may include Sony's newest sensor on their flagship body and then trickle it down to consumer models.
ggreene wrote:
Much of this will depend on what Canon is going to do with the 1D line. I'm not so sure Canon is going to drop 4K down from the 1Dc and if it's truly called the 1Ds then I doubt it will have the FPS that us sports shooters will want.
Canon was pretty adamant about unifying the 1D4 and the 1Ds3 into the 1DX. If this 1DsX rumor is true they have already back tracked on that after only one attempt. Kind of makes sense though as a true 1DX replacement could then be released ahead of the Olympics in 2016 while allowing Canon to pursue a higher MP pro body now.
It certainly would be very impressive if this rumor turns out to be the new unified 1D with 46MP at 12FPS. Digic 7 is next in line. I don't know a lot about the processors that Canon use but that seems like a lot of data to push around.
Canon's so-called merging of the 1 series line pleased no one. 1DIV users lot a lot of reach when FL limited and landscape and fashion, architecture people got even less pixels than before. I hope they re-split the line and that the 1DX2 is 24MP, 14fps (RAW), same per pixel noise, newer 7D II AF + further enhancements.
Archive 2014 · OMG - 1DsX in NYC...
