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Archive 2013 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless

  
 
bcaslis
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p.7 #1 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


sflxn wrote:
Their stockholders may not have the same opinion as you, and their's are the only opinions that matters. This business model of accepting losses to gain marketshare is one of the reason so many large Japanese companies are financially sick. It's fine for a few years, but some of them continue the practice for so long, they don't know what else to do. Less we forget Olympus almost went out of business and execs went to jail for trying to cover up all the losses.

The reason why many of these flunkies can never overtake Canon and Nikon is because DsLRs
...Show more

I agree with everything you said. I'd also add that one of the problems for players like Olympus, Panasonic and others at least in North America is distribution. Where does someone not already an enthusiast go to learn about and touch something like an E-M1 or GH3? The pickings are very small in major markets and non-exist in all others. Yes, you buy from Amazon but "joe I'm learning about cameras" is not going to buy a camera they have never seen in person or seen from one of their friends. The advantage Nikon and Canon have here is overwhelming. Sony comes in way behind those two but a little better than the other brands.



Jan 01, 2014 at 03:31 PM
Jabberwockt
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p.7 #2 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


If companies cannot innovate and find new niches to make themselves of value to consumers, I think they deserve to fade away, basic free market principle. It wasn't very long ago that I had a Sony Walkman or rented VCR tapes to watch movies. It is great that technology in consumer products keep advancing.


Jan 01, 2014 at 03:48 PM
philip_pj
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p.7 #3 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Sony Rumours are reporting the breakdown by maker and model of the rather different Japanese market mirrorless sales of 2013:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/2013-sales-sony-nex-5r-is-the-most-sold-mirrorless-camera-in-japan/

Sony got 23.1% of it, the rest was spread around a lot. What is interesting is that market power of the big two saw the Canon EOS m get 9.2% (2nd place) and the Nikon 1 series a little under 6% with the two series 1 models. m43 and APS-C were about equal and accounted for over 80% between them.

If we accept that neither the, well putting it bluntly, half-arsed C/N efforts are featuring in anyone's camera of the year lists - see how much market recognition matters? They got 15% - one in six mirrorless - from selling these turkeys. They must figure they don't need cutting edge design or performance...and at present they are almost certainly right. But Ford sells more cars than BMW, what would you rather drive?

And what will be Sony's share in 2014, I wonder?

The DSLR data is also given - over 90% APS-C - these look pretty vulnerable to phones from below and mirrorless from above and the flanks maybe.



Jan 01, 2014 at 03:56 PM
Beni
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p.7 #4 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Fuji have always made niche cameras that were always there without every being competition to anyone much. I doubt that they will go away just because they aren't competing with the big boys. They will continue doing their own thing just for the fun of it. Like always.


Jan 01, 2014 at 04:07 PM
JonPB
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p.7 #5 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


[My apologies for the length and incoherence of this rant. It is a new year, and I feel good, so my editing might not be up to par.]

Personally, I think it is all to the good. More people taking pictures means that more people have the opportunity to experience photography and adopt it as a hobby or develop it into a profession, which means that the industry as a whole will continue to make available the tools I need to continue my hobby.

More image sharing means more meritocracy among the top photographers, and more opportunities for the rest of us to learn from them. There have always been very few people with both a taste for and the financial means to buy fine art, and far more people who want to sell than who want to buy, so the effect on people who want to sell their photographs may be anecdotally poor but is likely no different from the plight of all artists in the rest of human history. But if a client has an eye for good photos, it is easier than ever for them to compare portfolios and put their money where the talent is, which is better for those of us who think our skills differentiate us from the pack.

Technologically speaking, the Lumia 1020 is posed at the diffraction limit of an f/2.2 lens on a small sensor. As that limit is capable of capturing an 8K resolution, I cannot see any reason to disparage the advance of compact imaging devices. However, that format of device can never provide a depth of field much shallower than a D800 or A7r using a lens at f/8. As such, while landscape photographers may find themselves drawn to tiny sensors, which are more easily taken out to the landscape in the first place, the people photographers--and the vast majority of pictures taken are of people--may come to see the need for larger sensored systems. A very low proportion of people who shoot with cameraphones will come to that conclusion, just like a very low proportion of people who bought a Canon Rebel will ever shoot through anything other than the kit lens, but more people taking pictures in the first place means more people who want to be able to take "better" pictures than what the default option offers. That might mean better ergonomics on a phone to allow for easier operation, or it might mean better dedicated cameras with larger sensors. Either way, as a consumer of high-end photo products, I win.

If anything, we're seeing the demise of the snapshot as a profit generator. Yes, the market is correcting from the rise of digital cameras, but I think a longer trend that is correcting is the practice of printing every image one took. How many people have hundreds or thousands of 3x5 prints in a box somewhere? I think the practice of printing everything in poor quality, lately transitioned to putting everything online in poor quality, is dying away. I saw a number of photobooks this holiday season, lightly curated collections of photos from the year that people paid to have printed for posterity. Likewise, people aren't posting everything to Facebook, but they're posting only their best shots from an outing. This implies a recognition that some images are better than others and that time/money is being spent to make more images of a higher caliber. These trends serve only to encourage people--again, maybe a small fraction of them, but nonetheless a meaningful portion--to seek out ways to make better images, which can include better kit. Meaning, there's still profit to be made through research, development, marketing and sales of photographic equipment, even if it takes a non-traditional form.

Admittedly, I'm glad I'm not working in the photographic industry right now, for these are indeed "interesting times" in the sense of the curse. But I'm not worried that the tools necessary for my hobby are going to disappear, even if my favorite brands do. We have seen Kodak fall apart, but there are perfectly viable alternatives to those items Kodak no longer sells and we've also seen a legion of new companies like Metabones and Chamonix come around with quite exciting products. While the American economy may or may not flounder, there is a worldwide boom of people entering the middle class and for whom photography will, at some level, be important. I wouldn't place any bets on any particular company, especially when all but the top two seem to be innovating rapidly toward unpredictable booms or busts, but I'm not worried about the industry as a whole--which is what ought to be important to us as consumers.

Cheers,
Jon



Jan 01, 2014 at 04:14 PM
carstenw
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p.7 #6 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
Sony Rumours are reporting the breakdown by maker and model of the rather different Japanese market mirrorless sales of 2013:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/2013-sales-sony-nex-5r-is-the-most-sold-mirrorless-camera-in-japan/

Sony got 23.1% of it, the rest was spread around a lot.


Erm, with MFT getting over 43%. Spread around a lot indeed.

I would caution against looking at these numbers too closely, as apparently they cover only 40% of the Japanese market, and we simply don't know what is going on in the majority part which is missing.



Jan 01, 2014 at 04:23 PM
philip_pj
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p.7 #7 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Good to hear other views on the matter as always, Jon.

'more people taking pictures in the first place means more people who want to be able to take "better" pictures than what the default option offers.'

I see very little evidence of this, in fact more to the contrary, as image taking becomes a birthright of kids and teenagers, and everybody is as good an anybody else, they seem happy with the quality, such as it is. Cameras are cameras, right? All thanks in part to the endless time sink of social media and 'instancy' in life today.

'but it does nothing to solve many of the problems that DSLRs solved years ago. Mirrorless does not replace DSLRs for most photographic needs'

Is this really true, especially the word 'most'? I'd like to hear about these problems and the DSLR solutions that mirrorless *as a category* fails at, esp the mature systems like Olympus/Fuji. I mean, Leica M has done really well for decades, did they solve the problems too, or fail?

Not being snippy here, but this is the kind of ideology that helps keeps C/N afloat, a vague but unarticulated belief system that somehow DLSRs do it all better and everything else is by default crippled - with respect to 'most photographic needs'.

Remember we just got through saying how phones are eating the market, and they sure don't solve too many photographic needs. So that is what success look like, for most people's photographic needs.

It cuts both ways of course, with things like low vibration shutters, IBIS, focus accuracy via peaking and magnification, live histo feeds, instant eye level review, low light ability, lighter payloads, silent operation and so on. What is on the compelling DSLR list apart from fringe interests like perhaps very long telephoto and TS - (these are patently not most peoples' needs)?



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:00 PM
sflxn
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p.7 #8 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Everyone always brings up the Japanese numbers, but I tend to throw them out the window. The Japanese market is an oddball. Extrapolating mirrorless success in Japan to all of Asia is a mistake. A few years ago, the m43 fanboys were exclaiming m43 were taking over Japan, Asia, and Europe and that the US market was an oddball. Fast forward to the present, the picture looks a lot different. Outside of Japan, Sony is either number 1 or 2 in every market. The two markets that matters most, North America (due to ease of language and law) and China, it appears Sony is number 1 in mirrorless. In two more years, I expect Sony will have at least 40% of the mirrorless market world wide, including Japan.


Jan 01, 2014 at 05:19 PM
sflxn
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p.7 #9 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
'but it does nothing to solve many of the problems that DSLRs solved years ago. Mirrorless does not replace DSLRs for most photographic needs'

Is this really true, especially the word 'most'? I'd like to hear about these problems and the DSLR solutions that mirrorless *as a category* fails at, esp the mature systems like Olympus/Fuji. I mean, Leica M has done really well for decades, did they solve the problems too, or fail?

Not being snippy here, but this is the kind of ideology that helps keeps C/N afloat, a vague but unarticulated belief system that somehow DLSRs do it
...Show more

When we're talking about professional use, then yes, it is absolutely true. For those who do sports, wildlife, architectural, and many othe categories, there is no replacing a DSLR yet. Let's be completely honest. Mirrorless solved exactly two problems, size and weight. When it comes to continuous autofocus, lenses, 3rd party support, flash, etc, DSLRs are still heads and shoulders ahead. Olympus is desparately trying to get their pro m43 to the same level as Canon and Nikon. They are just starting to try with the E-M5 and E-M1. They tried back in the 43 days and could never get there. I've seen a D800 in fire and iced and dropped 5 meters and keep on clicking. I doubt the E-M1 could get anywhere near that same level of punishment. For those shooting extreme sports, that's likely to matter.

It's far too easy to project our individual needs to the rest of the population. For my needs, the A7R fits me perfectly, but it and many other mirrorless have major drawbacks as we have discovered. The one area where I believe some mirrorless have surpassed DSLR is in manual focusing with high quality EVFs. For everything else, it's not easy to overcome the huge head start Canon and Nikon has. The professional market will keep the big 2 alive for decades to come. The non-pro market is getting eaten alive by smartphones. It is no coincidence that every mirrorless player is now trying to move into the pro market.



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:33 PM
carstenw
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p.7 #10 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


philip_pj wrote:
It cuts both ways of course, with things like low vibration shutters, IBIS, focus accuracy via peaking and magnification, live histo feeds, instant eye level review, low light ability, lighter payloads, silent operation and so on.


I see that you are not talking about the A7s here...



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:42 PM
carstenw
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p.7 #11 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


sflxn wrote:
When we're talking about professional use, then yes, it is absolutely true. For those who do sports, wildlife, architectural, and many othe categories, there is no replacing a DSLR yet. Let's be completely honest. Mirrorless solved exactly two problems, size and weight. When it comes to continuous autofocus, lenses, 3rd party support, flash, etc, DSLRs are still heads and shoulders ahead.


I am not sure that I would include tilt-shift on the DSLR side. The A7s do quite well at that, with their brilliant EVFs.

Olympus is desparately trying to get their pro m43 to the same level as Canon and Nikon. They are just starting to try with the E-M5 and E-M1. They tried back in the 43 days and could never get there.

Well now, that isn't quite fair, is it? Olympus is not desperately trying as much as they are getting there, step by step, through sheer persistence. I dare say that the Olympus cameras are closer to the DSLRs in functionality than any other mirror less camera.

I've seen a D800 in fire and iced and dropped 5 meters and keep on clicking. I doubt the E-M1 could get anywhere near that same level of punishment. For those shooting extreme sports, that's likely to matter.

For camera tossers, yes, you are probably right. Most photographers take better care of their equipment than that though, and the E-M1 can surely withstand a decent amount of abuse.



Jan 01, 2014 at 05:48 PM
sflxn
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p.7 #12 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


carstenw wrote:
I am not sure that I would include tilt-shift on the DSLR side. The A7s do quite well at that, with their brilliant EVFs.


Yes, I am extremely hopeful of this. It's one reason I bought one. I think Nikon will eventually come out with improved TSE lenses, but Canon have them now. However, the last time I checked Fred's thread in the Canon forum, they were having some issues with reflections from adapters and decentering due to adapters. I'm still hopeful this will get worked out.

Well now, that isn't quite fair, is it? Olympus is not desperately trying as much as they are getting there, step by step, through sheer persistence. I dare say that the Olympus cameras are closer to the DSLRs in functionality than any other mirror less camera.

It wasn't a slam on Olympus. I like what I see them doing, and I hope all the mirrorless try as hard as Olympus, but pros are not going to wait for equipment that may come tomorrow, when Canon and Nikon delivered equipment that did the job 5 years ago (in some cases, 20 years ago). Olympus is closer to Canon and Nikon than any other player, but as the BIF discussion in this thread a few comments back illustrated, they are closer, but it's like being 1 meter closer and still a kilometer away. Functionality isn't enough. The E-M1 is like a computer. The pro DSLRs are photo gear with a lot of 3rd party support, worldwide. Olympus is really great at mimicing a pro DSLR, but don't kid yourself.

I am being realistic. I'm a mirrorless fan and have migrated completely to them, but I'm not blinded from reality. None of these mirrorless can hold a candle to a pro DSLR for professional use.



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:06 PM
carstenw
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p.7 #13 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


I hope that the adapter issue is resolved. For the first time since leaving the Canon system, I have been eyeing one of their lenses: the 17 TS-E... The Novoflex adapter I have seems very good quality. I wonder if Fred has tried it?

Yes, Olympus, as far as they are, still have a ways to go. I wish them good luck, they are trying very hard, and need the success. They do have a serious SLR background, so I am hopeful that they can make it. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that they have more resistance from within than from without. The customers seem to eat up every new and more serious product they release...

I am enjoying my A7 at the moment, in spite of its flaws, but as my urbex tour last weekend showed, the D800 is still a good step ahead. I had flare problems with the A7 under some circumstances, rather unattractive flare, and the operation of the DSLR is still more satisfying and coherent. Maybe the A9 will resolve some of this...?



Jan 01, 2014 at 06:43 PM
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p.7 #14 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


snapsy wrote:
E-M5 + 35-100mm:
http://horshack.smugmug.com/Other/California/i-cFkF33G/0/XL/california_10-XL.jpg


That really is not a good example of BIF focus ability . Its an example of focusing on a really large, really static rock formation with some birds way in the background.

I will take my 7d or T3i anyday for BIF over ANY mirrorless camera.

Here is a BIF



Edited on Jan 01, 2014 at 08:40 PM · View previous versions



Jan 01, 2014 at 07:32 PM
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p.7 #15 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


sflxn wrote:
Everyone always brings up the Japanese numbers, but I tend to throw them out the window. The Japanese market is an oddball. Extrapolating mirrorless success in Japan to all of Asia is a mistake. A few years ago, the m43 fanboys were exclaiming m43 were taking over Japan, Asia, and Europe and that the US market was an oddball. Fast forward to the present, the picture looks a lot different. Outside of Japan, Sony is either number 1 or 2 in every market. The two markets that matters most, North America (due to ease of language and law) and China,
...Show more

Exactly. The idea that mirrorless is being saved by Asia is demonstrably false, once you land there. Where I live, China, SLR's reign supreme, by an enormous margin. Mirrorless cameras are hard to find, very expensive, and even harder to find out in the wild. The camera vendors that I talk to all repeat the same story: Chinese customers demand SLR's. They are big, they are flashy, they show off their new wealth.

It is not uncommon at all to see some young Chinese kid or young adult walking around with a Canon 5D MKIII and a very price piece of L glass. Not uncommon at all. I see waaay more L lenses here in China than I ever did back in the US.

Mirrorless is a distinctly second class purchase in China. The sole exception seems to be Sony and their A7. It's too early to say, but the Sony stores that I visit seem busy and active. Sony is the one mirrorless company that has actual distribution in China. Olympus and Fujifilm are virtually non existent in comparison.



Jan 01, 2014 at 07:42 PM
sflxn
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p.7 #16 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


rattymouse wrote:
Exactly. The idea that mirrorless is being saved by Asia is demonstrably false, once you land there. Where I live, China, SLR's reign supreme, by an enormous margin. Mirrorless cameras are hard to find, very expensive, and even harder to find out in the wild. The camera vendors that I talk to all repeat the same story: Chinese customers demand SLR's. They are big, they are flashy, they show off their new wealth.

It is not uncommon at all to see some young Chinese kid or young adult walking around with a Canon 5D MKIII and a very price piece
...Show more

I wouldn't call it a second class purchase in the US, but I almost never see anyone else using them. When I do see someone using them, it's always a NEX and sometimes a Fuji (among the hipsters). The price difference between DSLR and mirrorless is shocking enough to most consumers here that they don't even explore mirrorless. 6 years back, it was very common to see people with full size DSLRs with L and G lenses where I live. I think that fad wore off. Maybe in time, it will wear off in China. I have to admit it looks kind of douchy walking the street with a giant white lens and 5D with grip. I've done it. Not anymore. I think when digital imaging began, people got excited about the convenience. Once they bought into their first $1.5k + camera, the gateway into the expensive lenses were thrown wide open. After awhile, the size and weight does get on the nerves of some, enough to make them switch. When I'm thinking about the weight and back aches and not enjoying the photo taking experience, it ceases to be fun for me.

I still believe mirrorless has a future. It's not a grand future that fanboys envision. I doubt that any mirrorless will ever match a pro DSLR, but then again, not everyone needs a pro DSLR. If you need a cam that can do almost everything well, then get a DSLR. It's wrong to compare mirrorless to DSLRs. They can never match. Even Leica RF cannot match the all purposeness of DSLRs, but they don't need to. That's the point. Mirrorless, like RF, have limitations, and if you're ok with those limitations, they maybe a better fit than a DSLR.



Jan 01, 2014 at 08:50 PM
snapsy
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p.7 #17 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Stpix wrote:
That really is not a good example of BIF focus ability . Its an example of focusing on a really large, really static rock formation with some birds way in the background.

I will take my 7d or T3i anyday for BIF over ANY mirrorless camera.

Here is a BIF
http://stpix.smugmug.com/Raptors/i-rQCJ3ZK/0/L/IMG_9380-2-L.jpg


Sure, I understand and can't disagree. And I will take my OM-D over any DSLR when it comes to focusing on anything that doesn't happen to be flying across my FOV at 30mph. In other words, for 95% of general photography.



Jan 01, 2014 at 08:54 PM
sflxn
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p.7 #18 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


snapsy wrote:
Sure, I understand and can't disagree. And I will take my OM-D over any DSLR when it comes to focusing on anything that doesn't happen to be flying across my FOV at 30mph. In other words, for 95% of general photography.


This is the point I was trying to make about mirrorless not comparable to DSLRs. For 95% of general photography, mirrorless is fine. It's that 5-10% that requires the refinement that only DSLRs provide. I am always floored by how much money birders spend on gears to capture BIF images. For them, a $3k m43 kit just won't do. They will easily spend $10-20k because, to them, BIF may actually be 95% of what they do. It's always the 10/90 rule. 10% of the use takes up 90% of the spend.



Jan 01, 2014 at 09:07 PM
galenapass
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p.7 #19 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


I am a birder and just to chime in here. Not everything is a BIF. Many times birds are perched. Or, I am sitting at a nest so I am already prefocused....etc. I'd say only 15% of my photographs are BIF.

A MFT system would offer portability and superior IS. An OMD EM-1 is definitely on my short list, and as soon as I see good lenses available I'll get one. I took a 500mm into the Amazon basin for 1 week, it was a PITA. If I could get lighter gear and not give up too much IQ, it would be a no brainer.



Jan 01, 2014 at 11:55 PM
sebboh
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p.7 #20 · Dismal Outlook for Mirrorless


Stpix wrote:
That really is not a good example of BIF focus ability . Its an example of focusing on a really large, really static rock formation with some birds way in the background.

I will take my 7d or T3i anyday for BIF over ANY mirrorless camera.

Here is a BIF
http://stpix.smugmug.com/Raptors/i-rQCJ3ZK/0/L/IMG_9380-2-L.jpg


um, i'm pretty sure that was a joke.

none of the mirrorless players even have decent birding lenses, doesn't matter that their tracking AF doesn't work for anything. the sony's are probably the best though (better than the e-m1 too) since you can use phase detect AF and a-mount lenses. that would probably be better than the t3i but not the 7d.

anyway if you want a real BIF with a mirrorless, here is one with a sony 5n:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2816/9768662886_45536a43cc_o.jpg
it's manual focus of course though, and not really the type of bird shooting i like.




Jan 01, 2014 at 11:58 PM
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