mark1958 wrote:
This is exactly right. Also the size, weight and center of gravity of the particular lens can influence the specific vibration of a lens.
It gets even more complicated than that - frequency of the movement, 2nd and 3rd harmonics, dampening of the materials (tripod) their own specific frequency
Having established to my satisfaction that the a7r has no inherent or serious vibration problem for handholding, it got me thinking that a good monopod might be a very good idea, and would complement the small mass of the camera and sensible lenses, with a good small tripod head.
philip_pj wrote:
Having established to my satisfaction that the a7r has no inherent or serious vibration problem for handholding, it got me thinking that a good monopod might be a very good idea, and would complement the small mass of the camera and sensible lenses, with a good small tripod head.
I did some shots of the moon with the A7r and 135mm APO - (not really close ups) but enough to see that even with the center column up and intentionally trying to induce shutter blur by going 1/160 or less I wasn't able to make it happen.
Hand held also might mean our hands are working like bean bags and preventing the blur as long as we stay high enough to prevent motion blur.
According to my testing (which is not necessarily authoritative) you need to get out to about 400mm before the shutter vibration starts to affect things on an A7. It might happen a little earlier on an A7R, maybe 300mm. Not bad, all told, and normal long-lens technique would probably help, such as beanbags etc.
carstenw wrote:
According to my testing (which is not necessarily authoritative) you need to get out to about 400mm before the shutter vibration starts to affect things on an A7. It might happen a little earlier on an A7R, maybe 300mm. Not bad, all told, and normal long-lens technique would probably help, such as beanbags etc.
Carsten,
If you did not see and my subsequent 2 posts/photos:
This is one of my first posts here on the fm forum.
I come from the Nikon world, still owning Nikon cameras, but also got a Sony Nex-7 18 months ago. After a while I learned about the electronic first curtain, and experimented with the Nex-7 and D800 combined with an old Nikkor Ai-S 400/5.6. At certain shutter speeds I could never get 100% sharp images using the D800 with MLU on a sturdy tripod. Enter Nex-7. Combining the Nex-7 and the 400/5.6 using the electronic first curtain, the vibration problems were gone. When the A7 and A7R came out I opted for the A7 with only 24 mpix and electronic first curtain. I knew in advance what to expect.
bjornthun wrote:
This is one of my first posts here on the fm forum.
I come from the Nikon world, still owning Nikon cameras, but also got a Sony Nex-7 18 months ago. After a while I learned about the electronic first curtain, and experimented with the Nex-7 and D800 combined with an old Nikkor Ai-S 400/5.6. At certain shutter speeds I could never get 100% sharp images using the D800 with MLU on a sturdy tripod. Enter Nex-7. Combining the Nex-7 and the 400/5.6 using the electronic first curtain, the vibration problems were gone. When the A7 and A7R came out I opted for the A7 with only 24 mpix and electronic first curtain. I knew in advance what to expect. ...Show more →
But for many of us older photographers we had knowledge and experience as to how to limit and/or mitigate problems with shutter vibration issues on long focal length lenses on film that could be applied.
naturephoto1 wrote:
But for many of us older photographers we had knowledge and experience as to how to limit and/or mitigate problems with shutter vibration issues on long focal length lenses on film that could be applied.
Keeping the NEX-7 to go along with the A7r will be a good option to me, becuase it also adds the benefit of higher pixel density that is desirable when focal length limited.
It is also kind of good to know that the D800 will not be worth keeping over the A7r for this reason.
But in answer to your question, the problem will tend to arise when using high magnification such as longer telephoto lenses and macro work. You can use higher shutter speeds when possible. You can implement the usage of damping materials including the usage of bean bags which will increase mass, damp, and lessen any movement. Additionally providing you can use these options for the circumstances is to have multiple support locations under the lens and/or the camera as something based upon RRS long lens set-up:
You can change the position of the fulcrum point when using adapters to support a non-collared lens supporting under the lens adapter using either an L bracket and/or rotating collars as for Novoflex NEX adapters with the Novoflex ASTAT-NEX rotating collar.
For some collared lenses there may be issues with the support system and/or rotating collars. RRS as an example offers replacement collars and improved plates for the Arca Swiss QR system for Nikon and Canon lenses.
Additionally, if it is possible (though it will interfere with using your camera as quickly) and particularly with an L bracket on the camera body is to use a system of locking the camera in place along the bracket particularly if the other end can be locked to the QR plate or rail. You can use things such as the Manfroto Arms, Noga Arms, Variable Friction arms (available on ebay and Amazon). These can be used with Manfrotto Super Clamps or the likes as well as a variety of Arca Swiss Type QR clamps.
There are extension arms (or used to be) that could attach to the leg of a tripod and with an Arca Swiss Type QR clamp that could attach to the plate under a long lens (again will restrict movement).
The most extreme case normally particularly with very long lenses (though this would restrict movement of the system) would to use 2 tripods to support everything.
Also, and this is particular to my Leica 560mm f6.8 Telyt lens which was designed to work on a pistol stock and is very front heavy, the lens was totally re-balanced through a custom made plate that was then attached to a rail that would allow me to balance the whole system based upon the camera used.
Ah, I did miss that. So it looks like at 300mm or so (combining your and Fred's results), there is a slight issue around 1/25-1/60s, and otherwise barely any effect. That is a touch higher shutter speed than where I saw the most problems (1/15s), which could be attributed to the slightly different equipment.
Bottom line: there is a small problem area, but with good technique, and moving the exposure around a bit, it ought to be possible to avoid it.
If EFC is activated, the A7 has no shutter vibration at all, because when the second curtain "slaps", the picture is already taken
If EFC isn't activated in the A7, my guess is that the vibrations are aprox, the same in both cameras, but the higher pixel density of the A7r will make the effect more visible
AGeoJO wrote:
Is it pretty much the consensus that the A7 is better in the aspect of shutter vibration than the A7r?
AFAIK - shutter blur is an issue for the A7r getting north of 150mm and less than 1/160.
Bean bag dampening can help. Hand holding - provided you avoid motion blur can help.
The A7 with EFCS is like the NEX7 and not an issue except in extreme cases like Carsten noted - eg 400mm - by that time you're probably already in the vibration resonance and wind created blur anyway.
Note that at 400mm, with good technique but no beanbag, only the regular first curtain has problems on my rig. I don't know at what focal length the problems start with the electronic first curtain. I haven't seen anything yet.
In that case, isn't the A7 a better alternative over the NEX 7? In addition, the A7 is reported to handle wide-angle rangefinder lenses better. I realize that there is a difference in price and sensor format between the two. I am referring to the A7 as a second/backup body here, BTW although I am thinking too far ahead at this point but hey, it won't hurt, right ?
Better depends on what you need. For what I need, the A7 is better. Better AF, 24MP (for me better), electronic first curtain, potentially better performance with *some* RF lenses, better high ISO, faster FPS... Granted, many of these improvements are very small, even almost non-existent, but they all exist, and for me, they are *all* in the right direction. I might add the A7R as a second camera if I find that it can replace my D800, but at the moment I am tending against that.
naturephoto1 wrote:
But for many of us older photographers we had knowledge and experience as to how to limit and/or mitigate problems with shutter vibration issues on long focal length lenses on film that could be applied.
Rich
It depends - I'm sure if I would shoot just birds from tripod with 400+ mm in landscape orientation and macro in landscape orientation I could mitigate A7R first curtain vibration.
However in real life >50% of my photos are in portrait orientation. On Lloyd's pages it's clearly shown issue is much much worse when camera is on portrait orientation (verified by my own tests with panohead). Also there are other factors, which cause that I can't mitigate the vibration in many situations:
a) travel or lightweight hiking ==> smaller tripod with smaller head
b) panorama head (it combines much weaker head AND portrait orientation of camera)
I don't have A7r but on my A7 tests with mechanical first curtain shutter it was obvious that Zeiss APO-Sonnar 2/135 on panorama head is not usable unless used in midday with sun is shining at full power.
Handhold situations: Also I'm slightly starting to doubt theories that 1/focal length just needs to be turned to 1/(2-3 x focal length) just because camera has 36Mpix. At same time I have enjoyed getting 1/30s sharp images with 35mm lens with A7 - something, which never was possible with 20Mpix 5DmkII while using live view (=using electronic first curtain, no mirror slap or shutter "shock"). Thou this is only with 1.4/35, using small lens like FE35 it makes camera holding so difficult that 1/60s is my limit and I have got bad images even at 1/100s since A7 is so small that it's impossible to handhold without big lens. If I enable mechanical first curtain, there is no way I get any tack sharp 1/30s images with 35mm, even at 1/50s all don't come as good as 1/30s mostly comes with EFCS.
Even with all shutter vibration related issues I'm not sure will I get "just another" A7 or A7r for 2nd FE-mount body. Idea of 36Mpix sounds so tempting. Before A7 I had Canon 5DmkII as my main camera body, and I have no experience of high megapixel cameras (well A850 I use for handheld/zoom shooting and it has 24Mpix, but it's just 3Mpix more than 5DmkII).
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