Oh, I still remember listening to the quadraphonic 8 Track in my mom's late 70's Lincoln. Yeah Baby! Guess I would have been shooting with a Minolta SRT back then.
zhangyue wrote:
Rich, what is the conclusion? Are we testing diffraction limit or shutter vibration?
Michael,
Unfortunately both at once. I am not sure where the diffraction actually starts with the lens, but with the added weight of the bean bag, some other weight, or using additional points of support (2 or 3 points) and/or locking the camera itself down we can extend the sharpness performance and the acceptable shutter speeds for longer lenses.
I have most of this RRS long lens set-up with some back to back clamps. If I have the time, maybe I will try this to see how well this help to limit vibration.
I am forming the belief that a lot of people need to understand what the camera was designed for, and it would be great if they stuck with their giant Nikons which can do detail really well at the suddenly much needed shutter speeds around 1/30 to 1/60.
That would be me.
I'm used to the forums, so it's no surprise if my results didn't jibe with the agenda of some, they're discounted. In any case, I satisfied myself that the a7r doesn't suffer from shutter vibration.
I recall reading a user test several years ago(and I've been unable to relocate the link) on mirror lock-up and telephoto lenses. The fellow's conclusion: Using a remote release had the greatest influence on camera shake. Using one's finger to actuate the camera's shutter release, even with a 2 second delay with mirror lock-up, introduced more camera shake than no mirror lock-up and using a wired remote.
Graham, thanks for the documentation of minimal visible effect of shutter vibration with the lenses you tested. The effect is greatly increased with longer focal lengths, and 200 mm seems to be an upper limit in order to be on the safe side. Since the issue is mechanical vibration, the mass distribution and tripod mount point of each lens is important. The APO-Telyt 280/4 seems to be particularly bad. My Sigma 100-300 F/4 is a little better.
I find the quantitative description he uses quite accurate:
The effect is about 1/5 the magnitude of the D800 mirror slap. (Excluding inteference with optical image stabilisation)
If the usage is handheld looking through the viewfinder, the shutter induced vibration of the A7r is a 5x improvement over using a DSLR.
If the usage is on a tripod, it is like having a MLU that is only 80% effective. Knowing about the critical focal lengths and shutter speeds, one can apply workarounds, and good old long lens techniques come in handy.
This is why blanket statements in either direction are useless for some other people. We want to know our gear and understand the quirks and limitations like in every other case.
Is it safe to say that shutter vibrations are common across cameras, or most cameras have them?
Is it safe to say that this isn't a problem peculiar to Sony's?
I have 28 pages of tests a small group has been doing on the shutter vibration issue. Additionally, Lloyd Chambers published results using a Zeiss 135 and Leica 180 and 280mm lenses at http://diglloyd.com
All of the test results I’ve seen involve various lenses champed to a tripod, either directly on the camera, or on the lens foot or adapter foot. For these people the vibration issue is real, and generally quite pronounced. in some instances they have been able to eliminate it by attaching a metal weight to the bottom of the camera (the weight used was about 10 oz, 670g). I’m told (by the guys spending untold hours running these tests), that the consensus is 1/100th is the most vulnerable shutter speed, and the worst vibration blur is in the direction of the shutter travel (up/down with the camera in a horizontal position, and left/right when it is in a vertical position). I told them I would run a series of tests today with the Leica 180 f2.0 lens at 100th second and adjacent shutter speeds, but I do have images with this lens and with the Sony 70-400 at 200mm at shutter speeds of 1/13th - 1/15th, and images I took with a Nikon 200-400 at 400mm f4.0 at a 500th and 640th which do not show any vibration. These guys want to use the A7r in place of their large medium format cameras for landscape and industrial work, hence their focus on tripods and a variety of shift-tilt adapters and lenses. If I’m going to use long lenses, I will use the D800E (or D3s) and the Wimberly II head - I wanted the A7r because it is a small, lightweight, 36MP camera sans AA filter. Using Leica M lenses on it is one of the main uses I intended for it. I took the camera with the 35mm f2.8 lens on a hike in the woods with the dogs and shot a variety of scenes I’d photographed before with the Sigma DP2M and 3M. When I looked at them, most had image blur, while that has simply not been an issue with the leaf shutter Sigma cameras. I did a series on a tripod with the 35mm and some M lenses (the 28 f2.0 and 28 f2.8 have issue at the edges), and they were fine. Now I just need to get time to carry the camera around and use it like I intended to see whether the issue is a problem or not, and if so, when is it most likely to occur.
nandadevieast wrote:
Is it safe to say that shutter vibrations are common across cameras, or most cameras have them?
Is it safe to say that this isn't a problem peculiar to Sony's?
No, It's not accurate to say that universally, shutter vibration issues are common across most cameras. Some cameras are clearly worse than others. It's also not a "Sony" issue per se but likely has more to do with design choices/ trade-offs in designing a small, light body with full frame sensor. As I stated back on page 3:
Given a larger and heavier DSLR body, there would seem to obviously be more design flexibility versus an extremely small body. In the larger body, there may be more room for a larger, more sophisticated shutter with more dampening technology built into the actual shutter mechanism. I think it's logical to also consider that a heavier body might act as dampening in itself.
nandadevieast wrote:
Is it safe to say that shutter vibrations are common across cameras, or most cameras have them?
Is it safe to say that this isn't a problem peculiar to Sony's?
Problem isn't particular to Sony but most bodies have mechanisms to work-around vibration issues, including mirror lockup (DSLRs), electronic first curtain (MILC), and anti-shutter shock delay (MFT). Sony will need to add an anti-shutter shock delay in the A7R to work around the vibration people are seeing. It's a configurable delay between the shutter closing (to stop Live View and reset the sensor) and the shutter opening to start the exposure.
Based on the experiences of people here, how do you guys think the A7r shutter vibration would affect the Image stabilization of lenses such as the Sigma 70-200 OS and the Sigma 105 macro OS mounted with LA-EA4?
This is the issue that has me leaning toward the A7. I shoot mainly handheld.
Jon35 wrote:
Based on the experiences of people here, how do you guys think the A7r shutter vibration would affect the Image stabilization of lenses such as the Sigma 70-200 OS and the Sigma 105 macro OS mounted with LA-EA4?
This is the issue that has me leaning toward the A7. I shoot mainly handheld.
It'll have to be tested on a case-by-case basis. I see blur issues with Canon IS with the 28mm and 35mm lenses but not with the 70-200 f/2.8 II. Someone on dpreview couldn't reproduce the issue with their 28mm. Fred M. tried a 24-105mm f/4 IS with his A7R and didn't see the issue.
In a few years, when the all-electronic shutter gets rid off of the current issues ( banding, ghosting ) we'll laugh reading back this and similar threads. By then, the only one to blame by the vibrations will be the photographer ..and I see no technical fix for that one.
snapsy wrote:
It'll have to be tested on a case-by-case basis. I see blur issues with Canon IS with the 28mm and 35mm lenses but not with the 70-200 f/2.8 II. Someone on dpreview couldn't reproduce the issue with their 28mm. Fred M. tried a 24-105mm f/4 IS with his A7R and didn't see the issue.
Adam,
Is that more because of the IS, in other words you see that pretty much at various shutter speeds or is that due to the shutter vibration, more noticeable at the "affected" shutter speed range? I know it is not scientific but still, what is your hunch related to this issue? Both Canon 28 and 35mm are on my radar screen since they optically great, fairly light/compact and most of all, with IS.
AGeoJO wrote:
Adam,
Is that more because of the IS, in other words you see that pretty much at various shutter speeds or is that due to the shutter vibration, more noticeable at the "affected" shutter speed range? I know it is not scientific but still, what is your hunch related to this issue? Both Canon 28 and 35mm are on my radar screen since they optically great, fairly light/compact and most of all, with IS.
Thanks,
Joshua
It appears to be entirely from IS. At the effected shutter speeds (around 1/80) I get sharp photos with IS disabled but blurred photos when IS is enabled (see results here). I'm guessing this is the same shutter-shock phenomenon that occurs on the OM-D IBIS, where the vibration from the shutter is feeding into the IS/IBIS mechanism, which reacts to the vibration as if it were human motion and tries to counteract it but due to the fast timing the IS/IBIS is still in transition when the exposure starts.
Pardon me if this is naive...but if a camera has this issue at 200mm, then why will it not have the same issue at 35mm? Maybe not so day and night, but shouldnt it have the issue at shorter focal lengths as well..?
nandadevieast wrote:
Pardon me if this is naive...but if a camera has this issue at 200mm, then why will it not have the same issue at 35mm? Maybe not so day and night, but shouldnt it have the issue at shorter focal lengths as well..?
The higher the optical magnification the more sensitive the capture is to any movement or vibration. You can demonstrate this yourself by using a zoom lens and viewing an object at maximum LV magnification at both ends of the zoom's focal range. It's the same reason why longer focal lengths require higher shutter speeds for hand-held use.
This is exactly right. Also the size, weight and center of gravity of the particular lens can influence the specific vibration of a lens.
snapsy wrote:
The higher the optical magnification the more sensitive the capture is to any movement or vibration. You can demonstrate this yourself by using a zoom lens and viewing an object at maximum LV magnification at both ends of the zoom's focal range. It's the same reason why longer focal lengths require higher shutter speeds for hand-held use.
