I don't know for sure of course, but my guess is the shutter is identical on A7 and A7R. It wouldn't be economical to have two different designs. Not offering it as a feature on A7R is likely because it caused unacceptable results for some combination of shutter speed (1/8000?) and other factors.
I like my Lowepro Flipside 400AW very much as the Backpack that I turn to when I want to carry a reasonable amount of gear on my back. It is comfortable and has a good harness.
Carsten,
If you want a really small but rather spartan bag, I have been using this by Kinesis Gear:
When I want to break up my kit instead of my Backpack (Lowepro Flipside 400AW) or one of my Lowepro AW shoulder bags I often use the Kinesis Gear bag above along with another Kinesis Gear Bag that has been discontinued for some years.
The Kinesis M330 is a great small bag. I made the mistake of giving mine away so I will be ordering another one. I love how flexible the bag is and will accomodate a load larger than the bags stats.
Why hasn't someone designed a simple 300gm weight that will slide onto the dove tail of a a7R L-bracket that will eliminate the shutter shock when using long lenses at lower shutter speeds? When using longer lenses most will attach to their ball head via the lens foot which leaves the L-bracket free. Suppose you could add a clamp but really wouldn't be necessary.
You sure about that? The a7R has a higher max shutter speed and from what I understand the a7 has a different shutter sound even with EFCS turned off. I guess part of that difference could be due to the plastic vs. magnesium being used in the two cameras.
briantho wrote:
I don't know for sure of course, but my guess is the shutter is identical on A7 and A7R. It wouldn't be economical to have two different designs. Not offering it as a feature on A7R is likely because it caused unacceptable results for some combination of shutter speed (1/8000?) and other factors.
If the shutters were identical, the flash sync. speeds would be the same and this isn't the case (1/160" vs 1/250").
It's possible that they're are almost twin brothers, but the shutter mechanism of the A7r has weaker springs to reduce the curtains speed and, therefore, the induced vibrations... but that's only my wild guess..
snapsy wrote:
Yep, only the A7 has the electronic first curtain. It's curious why Sony was not able to implement one on the A7R. Interestingly, every Canon DSLR starting from the 40D has an electronic first curtain when using Live View, whereas no Nikon DSLR does.
tsdevine wrote:
You sure about that? The a7R has a higher max shutter speed and from what I understand the a7 has a different shutter sound even with EFCS turned off. I guess part of that difference could be due to the plastic vs. magnesium being used in the two cameras.
Both 1/8000, efcs changes the shutter sound on all cameras I've tried that have them.
The described shutter issue with the A7R is something I don't understand. I did not observe this issue yet in any of my handheld shots with my A7R, no matter which lens I used. I simply stay away from taking photos at an exposure handheld longer than 1/40 seconds - any camera gives you blur especially when going slower towards 1/20 seconds. So what's the big deal here - sounds like this is user error? When talking about shutter vibrations and better/worse shutter springs, wouldn't even the "bad" springs at least be similar to shutter functions which we had in older film SLR cameras? I used (and still use) film SLRs and also never had a shutter issue there....if a photo turned out blurry, it was always my fault by shakening or simply due to lack of better handheld support at too long exposure times.
Slurs have it too and that's why there was mirror lock up. However, small mirror less bodies are especially prone to this problem. The situation is usually worse with collapsing lens designs IME from MfT.
There's a resonance frequency that exhibits shutter shock and it's usually between 1/80 to 1/200 or so with most occurring on 1/125 on olympus bodies without efcs. It's not user error but it can be highly dependent on the body and lens combo.
retrofocus wrote:
The described shutter issue with the A7R is something I don't understand. I did not observe this issue yet in any of my handheld shots with my A7R, no matter which lens I used. I simply stay away from taking photos at an exposure handheld longer than 1/40 seconds - any camera gives you blur especially when going slower towards 1/20 seconds. So what's the big deal here - sounds like this is user error? When talking about shutter vibrations and better/worse shutter springs, wouldn't even the "bad" springs at least be similar to shutter functions which we had in older film SLR cameras? I used (and still use) film SLRs and also never had a shutter issue there....if a photo turned out blurry, it was always my fault by shakening or simply due to lack of better handheld support at too long exposure times. ...Show more →
Try it with a Canon 35mm f/2 IS lens with IS enabled and you'll see it clearly.
retrofocus wrote:
The described shutter issue with the A7R is something I don't understand. I did not observe this issue yet in any of my handheld shots with my A7R, no matter which lens I used. I simply stay away from taking photos at an exposure handheld longer than 1/40 seconds - any camera gives you blur especially when going slower towards 1/20 seconds. So what's the big deal here - sounds like this is user error? When talking about shutter vibrations and better/worse shutter springs, wouldn't even the "bad" springs at least be similar to shutter functions which we had in older film SLR cameras? I used (and still use) film SLRs and also never had a shutter issue there....if a photo turned out blurry, it was always my fault by shakening or simply due to lack of better handheld support at too long exposure times. ...Show more →
The reported issues tend to show blur due to shutter shock not long exposure motion blur. As you know you can feel the shutter if you're handholding the A7r. The issues tend to be summarized as;
Tripod mount (ie hand holding generally OK if no motion blur)
Tripod mount to the lens is worse
Shutter range ~1/25-1/200
Long heavy lenses are worse
retrofocus wrote:
The described shutter issue with the A7R is something I don't understand. I did not observe this issue yet in any of my handheld shots with my A7R, no matter which lens I used. I simply stay away from taking photos at an exposure handheld longer than 1/40 seconds - any camera gives you blur especially when going slower towards 1/20 seconds. So what's the big deal here - sounds like this is user error? When talking about shutter vibrations and better/worse shutter springs, wouldn't even the "bad" springs at least be similar to shutter functions which we had in older film SLR cameras? I used (and still use) film SLRs and also never had a shutter issue there....if a photo turned out blurry, it was always my fault by shakening or simply due to lack of better handheld support at too long exposure times. ...Show more →
I am wondering what the logical train of thought was here: you haven't noticed it, therefore it doesn't exist? Does that cover it?
retrofocus wrote:
So what's the big deal here -
Due to f#cking stupid design just before exposure shutter is closed (because it's open all the time in mirrorless live view cameras), then sensor is reseted (Sony is using old sensor design, which can't reset pixels without shutter closed), and then shutter is opened. This doesn't happen on any film SLRs, they have just the opening part (assuming mirror lock is used).. However this does happen on non-Canon SLRs e.g. D800 does the same IF live view is used, but anyone with brains uses mirror lock-up mode with D800 if they want to minimize shutter vibration.
If Sony engineers wouldn't be idiots, this wouldn't be as big problem; most likely JUST opening shutter would cause any blur, but as the idiots have designed it to close and open in very short time frame there is vibration as a results. They could fix this with firmware, but Sony isn't famous for supporting their products, they just push new products to market all the time.
The shutter speed range affected is according to tests from 1/200s to 1/10s (strongest effect 1/100s or 1/125s). At longer exposures the vibration dies in beginning of exposure and majority of exposure is recorded vibration free and end result doesn't have blur. For example I had no problems shooting at night 2-10s exposures with Leica 180APO + 2x.
I haven't heard anything else than Pentax 6x7 SLR with long lenses suffering from shutter caused vibration (not mirror, which would be user error) on film.
retrofocus wrote:
sounds like this is user error?
Bad thing is that user can't prevent this happening. There are ways to mitigate e.g. hung enormous weight on bottom of camera - and what was the point of small and light camera if you do that...
retrofocus wrote:
When talking about shutter vibrations and better/worse shutter springs, wouldn't even the "bad" springs at least be similar to shutter functions which we had in older film SLR cameras? I used (and still use) film SLRs and also never had a shutter issue there....if a photo turned out blurry, it was always my fault by shakening or simply due to lack of better handheld support at too long exposure times.
Considering:
a) talking about handheld photography
b) comparing to film (equivalent of max 6Mpix)
indicates that you will have never any issue with shutter shock. With your references you would be OK even with most longer teles up to 300mm, most likely resolution would be over 6Mpix despite the blur even at 1/100s, which is typically most effected by shutter shock.
The shutter shock causes ~0.2px blur on sturdy tripod&heavy head with 55mm lens (assuming adapter's Arca-Swiss is connected to tripod, less if camera is connected to tripod, but lens mount is so frigid that there is no way to hang 1kg+ lenses from this lens mount, there is visible pending happening already with 600g lens) - effect of that reduces the resolution to somewhere close to 24Mpix. So we are not talking about that kind of blurry pictures what one shoots 1/10s with 135mm lens handhold, which anyone can see from tiny 10cm*15cm/4"*6" print from 2meter/6feet away.
It's so sad that majority of people are "ooooh lots of megapixels, nice, I want that" but actually have no need for 36Mpix camera, neither technique to get everything out from their cameras.
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Due to f#cking stupid design just before exposure shutter is closed (because it's open all the time in mirrorless live view cameras), then sensor is reseted (Sony is using old sensor design, which can't reset pixels without shutter closed), and then shutter is opened. This doesn't happen on any film SLRs, they have just the opening part (assuming mirror lock is used).. However this does happen on non-Canon SLRs e.g. D800 does the same IF live view is used, but anyone with brains uses mirror lock-up mode with D800 if they want to minimize shutter vibration.
If Sony engineers wouldn't be idiots, this wouldn't be as big problem; most likely JUST opening shutter would cause any blur, but as the idiots have designed it to close and open in very short time frame there is vibration as a results. They could fix this with firmware, but Sony isn't famous for supporting their products, they just push new products to market all the time.
The shutter speed range affected is according to tests from 1/200s to 1/10s (strongest effect 1/100s or 1/125s). At longer exposures the vibration dies in beginning of exposure and majority of exposure is recorded vibration free and end result doesn't have blur. For example I had no problems shooting at night 2-10s exposures with Leica 180APO + 2x.
I haven't heard anything else than Pentax 6x7 SLR with long lenses suffering from shutter caused vibration (not mirror, which would be user error) on film.
Bad thing is that user can't prevent this happening. There are ways to mitigate e.g. hung enormous weight on bottom of camera - and what was the point of small and light camera if you do that...
Considering:
a) talking about handheld photography
b) comparing to film (equivalent of max 6Mpix)
indicates that you will have never any issue with shutter shock. With your references you would be OK even with most longer teles up to 300mm, most likely resolution would be over 6Mpix despite the blur even at 1/100s, which is typically most effected by shutter shock.
The shutter shock causes ~0.2px blur on sturdy tripod&heavy head with 55mm lens (assuming adapter's Arca-Swiss is connected to tripod, less if camera is connected to tripod, but lens mount is so frigid that there is no way to hang 1kg+ lenses from this lens mount, there is visible pending happening already with 600g lens) - effect of that reduces the resolution to somewhere close to 24Mpix. So we are not talking about that kind of blurry pictures what one shoots 1/10s with 135mm lens handhold, which anyone can see from tiny 10cm*15cm/4"*6" print from 2meter/6feet away.
It's so sad that majority of people are "ooooh lots of megapixels, nice, I want that" but actually have no need for 36Mpix camera, neither technique to get everything out from their cameras.
Thanks, Samuli, for your concise answers to my questions. This explains better now where the issue derives from. Explains also now why a firmware update could fix this. I shot handheld between 1/50 - 1/200s but didn't observe this issue. I used L lenes with the Metabones adapter on my A7R mostly but also some FD lenses with Fotasy adapter. Side-by-side comparison of shots taken with the same EF lens on my 5D MkII body reveal better sharpness in the A7R shots which I took. Certainly something to keep in mind in case I observe something weird regarding blur in photos taken with the A7R in the future.
snapsy wrote:
Try it with a Canon 35mm f/2 IS lens with IS enabled and you'll see it clearly.
This is a lens which I don't have (and which I am not interested in either). Any idea why it happens specifically with this lens (I suspect with the Metabones adapter)?
carstenw wrote:
I am wondering what the logical train of thought was here: you haven't noticed it, therefore it doesn't exist? Does that cover it?
No. I said I didn't experience the issue yet but also didn't know the exact reason what should have caused it (Samuli explained it below). So far my handheld photos with the A7R turned out with improved sharpness compared to my 5D MkII (same lens used).
