p.15 #1 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
gdanmitchell wrote:
I think the Sony offerings are interesting and innovative and it will be interesting to see where this leads. That said, just about everything in this kerfuffle of a discussion is guesswork, wishful thinking, personal frustration, or fantasizing.
But that's kinda the purpose of having the thread, isn't it? Otherwise there'd be no point to discuss anything because just the press release already states the facts.
p.15 #2 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
I guess it's yet to be seen, but Sony is releasing an adapter for A mount lenses. The flange focal distance for the A mount is 44.5mm and the EF mount is 44mm. So whatever issues EF mount lenses would have, so would Sony/Minolta A mount lenses. If there were any severe issues, I think Sony would note that.
-Tim
Mike K wrote:
Likely Issue with adapted Canon lenses on A7R
I was watching the Sony product announcement that Fred provided in this thread, Page 11 post #8 start at 17 min. The product manager describes the design of the sensor pixels as having offset micro lenses towards the periphery of the sensor where the light strikes the sensor at an oblique angle. The micro lens design would help to minimize vignetting as one would be able to capture a bit more light. Inherent in this micro lens design is that the mirrorless body has a very short registration distance; from the rear lens element to the sensor. The larger FF sensor requires that the light coming from the lens has to bend more than with a smaller 1.5 or 2X crop design, and thus strikes the sensor at sharper, more oblique angle.
However, when using the Canon EF lens, the lens designers were always blessed with a much longer registration distance (hence a thicker camera body). The light hits the sensor at a more straight on angle than for a lens native for the Sony A7R mount. Thus with the adapted Canon lens the sensor micro lenses will not be optimally placed as the camera presumes a lens of much shorter registration distance. The Sony video has a few diagrams.
How much loss of light will this micro lens misalignment cause? Perhaps just a small fraction of a stop? Will it simply look like a wee bit more vignetting over the native lens performance, or will it be more visible as CA or other forms of distortion in the corners? My guess would be at least a small increase in vignetting. Any opinions?
Mike K...Show more →
p.15 #3 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
skibum5 wrote:
People were talking about more DR before the 5D3 came out. Anyway, the A7R would hardly replace the 5D3 since it won't give you the AF, fps, raw video, etc. but man does it fill a GAPING and TERRIBLE whole that Canon has let appear due to too much MBA types doing their thing and not enough letting the engineers drive things.
I think the demand for an A7 type body amongst Canon users is being blown a bit out of proportion by this thread. That said, I do hope Canon produce a very well engineered EF mount mirrorless body with at least 30mp, 14 stop of DR, superb AF, an OVF (actually scrap the OVF, it would be too awkward) for under $2k to fill this medium sized hole they've left. If they see the business case for it they will. If not it's a free market. Some manufacturers have allowed engineers to drive things and they've gone bust, but I agree letting the MBA types dominate and possibly be holding back progress is not good, if that's what's occurring at Canon. For all we know they have have something in development and will unveil it in their own sweet time.
p.15 #4 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
skibum5 wrote:
...the A7R would hardly replace the 5D3....
Put the 50L1.2/50L1.0/ZE55f1.4 on A7(r) then for sure they will replace M9 + 50 Noctilux-m. This thread does not exist without hi-resolution, wider DR and lesser shadows noise...it 's all about sensor. Give it little time then you can see some MBAs really know how to do their job well
p.15 #5 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Mike K wrote:
Likely Issue with adapted Canon lenses on A7R
I was watching the Sony product announcement that Fred provided in this thread, Page 11 post #8 start at 17 min. The product manager describes the design of the sensor pixels as having offset micro lenses towards the periphery of the sensor where the light strikes the sensor at an oblique angle. The micro lens design would help to minimize vignetting as one would be able to capture a bit more light. Inherent in this micro lens design is that the mirrorless body has a very short registration distance; from the rear lens element to the sensor. The larger FF sensor requires that the light coming from the lens has to bend more than with a smaller 1.5 or 2X crop design, and thus strikes the sensor at sharper, more oblique angle.
However, when using the Canon EF lens, the lens designers were always blessed with a much longer registration distance (hence a thicker camera body). The light hits the sensor at a more straight on angle than for a lens native for the Sony A7R mount. Thus with the adapted Canon lens the sensor micro lenses will not be optimally placed as the camera presumes a lens of much shorter registration distance. The Sony video has a few diagrams.
How much loss of light will this micro lens misalignment cause? Perhaps just a small fraction of a stop? Will it simply look like a wee bit more vignetting over the native lens performance, or will it be more visible as CA or other forms of distortion in the corners? My guess would be at least a small increase in vignetting. Any opinions?
Mike K...Show more →
I don't know the answer to this question but it is my number 1 concern. If the nex7r is optimized for lens that have extreme light angles at the edges, logically it means that for lens that do not have this issue (sony a lens and canon ef/efs lens) it will create distortion on the edges.
The good news is that sony is making an adapter for the A lens that have similar light angles to the canon e lens. Hopefully their design solves this and whatever solution is not just software specific to A lens without any canon EF solution.
We won't know until we see tests of A7R with TS17.... and an adapter.
p.15 #6 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Bones74 wrote:
I think the demand for an A7 type body amongst Canon users is being blown a bit out of proportion by this thread. That said, I do hope Canon produce a very well engineered EF mount mirrorless body with at least 30mp, 14 stop of DR, superb AF, an OVF (actually scrap the OVF, it would be too awkward) for under $2k to fill this medium sized hole they've left. If they see the business case for it they will. If not it's a free market. Some manufacturers have allowed engineers to drive things and they've gone bust, but I agree letting the MBA types dominate and possibly be holding back progress is not good, if that's what's occurring at Canon. For all we know they have have something in development and will unveil it in their own sweet time....Show more →
Your post brings up a few points. Mainly, no one has shown what is inherently bad/wrong/horrible about an OVF and mirror assembly. Until the EVF/mirrorless cameras show a significant improvement in most/all areas, the mirror will still reign supreme in the camera world. The big question right now, is when/if they can get AF to the same speed or faster without a mirror. Currently, they are a long way from doing anything close to what a 1Dx can achieve in AF speed and tracking. The other issue is battery life, that one will be easier to address I'm sure.
To me, the size issue isn't a big deal for mirrorless. The EVF has some advantages for seeing actual exposure, focus peaking and magnification, etc. So, to me at least, producing an EF mount mirrorless camera would take the good aspects of the mirror away and only replace them with the good aspects of an EVF. The downsides would be pretty big for most people and the gains would be minimal.
p.15 #7 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
I think people looking for a 1Dx performance camera in a mirrorless system, they will have to keep waiting. The 1Dx is a niche product for professional use. The mirrorless cameras are attacking the bottom end market, where the vast majority of camera sales exist. That is smart business.
For my type of photography, mainly landscape, the A7r appears to be ideal. Will have to wait on results of using existing Canon lens with adapter on the camera, but for landscapes, AF and fps don't really matter...it's all about the sensor.
p.15 #8 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Bones74 wrote:
I think the demand for an A7 type body amongst Canon users is being blown a bit out of proportion by this thread. That said, I do hope Canon produce a very well engineered EF mount mirrorless body with at least 30mp, 14 stop of DR, superb AF, an OVF (actually scrap the OVF, it would be too awkward) for under $2k to fill this medium sized hole they've left. If they see the business case for it they will. If not it's a free market. Some manufacturers have allowed engineers to drive things and they've gone bust, but I agree letting the MBA types dominate and possibly be holding back progress is not good, if that's what's occurring at Canon. For all we know they have have something in development and will unveil it in their own sweet time. ...Show more →
It's not the body type that's in demand, it's the sensor! The thing that's special about a FF mirrorless body in the context of this thread is that it allows EF lenses to be used on it.
For my shooting, I wouldn't care very much about Canon developing a FF mirrorless body because at this point, the only advantage of using a Canon body for me would be the fact that I don't have to use adapters for my EF lenses. On a Canon mirrorless, you'd need an adapter, same as on the Sony.
If Canon comes out with a 45mp, high DR wunderkam at some point in the future I might be interested in it (though at the risk of engaging in speculation, I think the price might be hard to swallow). But since the Sony exists right now, I don't see the need to wait around to see what Canon will do.
p.15 #10 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
artd wrote:
It's not the body type that's in demand, it's the sensor! The thing that's special about a FF mirrorless body in the context of this thread is that it allows EF lenses to be used on it.
For my shooting, I wouldn't care very much about Canon developing a FF mirrorless body because at this point, the only advantage of using a Canon body for me would be the fact that I don't have to use adapters for my EF lenses. On a Canon mirrorless, you'd need an adapter, same as on the Sony.
If Canon comes out with a 45mp, high DR wunderkam at some point in the future I might be interested in it (though at the risk of engaging in speculation, I think the price might will hard to swallow). But since the Sony exists right now, I don't see the need to wait around to see what Canon will do. ...Show more →
I get exactly where you're coming from and I have no argument Are there any adapters that allow Nikon to Canon with AF and metering? I suspect not. There was a time when I considered forking out for a D800E and a 14-24 because I wanted to "take landscape shooting more seriously". I understand the limitations of the 5D3 sensor. I've seen the banding when lifting shadows. The actual dynamic range doesnt bother me, but being able to raise shadows with little no consequence is very appealing. The 1DX is noticeably better IME and I've heard the 6D is better still, but no where near as good as an exmor sensor. I really do hope Canon is engaging in some sensor alchemy
p.15 #11 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Paul Mo wrote:
It is both - together as a compact FF camera, and separately as a quality sensor.
Whether or not this sensor is 'quality' remains to be seen.
Umm...if Canon released their existing sensor in a compact mirrorless camera body...I'd have ZERO interest in it. It's all about the sensor in the Sony camera and the ability to use my existing Canon lenses with it.
p.15 #12 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
chez wrote:
It's all about the sensor in the Sony camera and the ability to use my existing Canon lenses with it.
I know. But we don't know what the sensor is capable of yet, do we?
Some people are excited about being able to put their EF (and other) lenses over this sensor, and others are happy about the form factor, still others are pleased about both.
p.15 #13 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Paul Mo wrote:
I know. But we don't know what the sensor is capable of yet, do we?
Some people are excited about being able to put their EF (and other) lenses over this sensor, and others are happy about the form factor, still others are pleased about both.
Take care,
Paul.
Why so much debate about the sensor? Hard to imagine it can be anything but as good or better than the D800 or D600 sensor. Only real debate seems to be what effect the 'angled' microlenses will have.
p.15 #14 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
jctriguy wrote:
Why so much debate about the sensor?
Sorry, you must have misunderstood me. I am not debating the sensor. How can I when I haven't seen a single quality image from an A7, let alone shot one myself to view a RAW in person?
p.15 #16 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
jctriguy wrote:
Why so much debate about the sensor? Hard to imagine it can be anything but as good or better than the D800 or D600 sensor. Only real debate seems to be what effect the 'angled' microlenses will have.
Because this is where Canon has to compete now with in case they want to stay successful in the FF market - it is not enough to come up with a sensor which has the same specs as in the D800(E) or in the A7(R). As a poster above said - it needs to be "spicier" and even better that they are able to stay in the game. Those are great times ahead - dropping prices for FF cameras and more competition in this field.
Even better for us consumers - we have a choice now and don't need to wait what Canon does or doesn't do.
p.15 #17 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
I believe this discussion about the "DSLR reigning supreme until mirrorless cameras catch up with every feature and performance" may leave out an important factor, that of portability.
I remember when home audio was all about performance, and the audiophile segment paid huge prices for ultimate sound quality. This pushed engineers to ever more performance, and we all anticipated 24-bit disks with baited breath and ready wallets. What happened to SACD and HD-DVD? Customers defected in huge numbers, irresistibly drawn to a gadget with lousy sound quality called the iPod. But portability and the ability to design and replay your own selection trumped quality big time.
I see that happening again here. Many people on this forum have gradually moved over to lighter cameras (mirrorless APS-Cs and M4/3) , so that they have a lighter, smaller kit, that they can take anywhere.
This is IMHO the market segment that Sony are wooing, first with NEX, then with RX, then with smartphone-mounted camera-in-a lens, now with A7. Portability achieved with as little as possible compromise. Wi-fi. Apps.
If audio is anything to go by, Sony are on to something which could be huge.
Brooding over much about this and that less-than-complete-or-perfect aspect may be justified, but could cause on to lose sight of the "big picture". Which happens to be small cameras.
Just my $0.02.
p.15 #18 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
artd wrote:
It's not the body type that's in demand, it's the sensor! The thing that's special about a FF mirrorless body in the context of this thread is that it allows EF lenses to be used on it.
Yes, and Canon FD, Minolta, Pentax, M42/T2, Rubinar and all my old, non-Canon EOS lenses! And with the a7R, at a resolution that is probably beyond the capability of most of my old lenses
p.15 #19 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Bones74 wrote:
but I agree letting the MBA types dominate and possibly be holding back progress is not good, if that's what's occurring at Canon. For all we know they have have something in development and will unveil it in their own sweet time.
I'm pretty sure that is what is happening. You can see the imprints all over that in the little games they play with firmware and last second locking MFA out of the 40D and then again in the 60D and lockign video out of the 50D last second and dribbling out autoiso over more than a decade (and it still hasn't arrived in truly working fashion under 1DX level) and the way they held back on so many built-in video features for the 5D3 and mushed up the video, etc. etc. (the 5D3 hardware, what the engineers did, is actually capable of truly astounding video capability, it just took hackers to unlock the potential of it and to add in missing usability features; evne if it is somewhat hidden at first they have been doing some ultra-top rate, cutting edge stuff; the new 70D video focus stuff too which is fully unleashed). The way they didn't even think to put something as obviously needed as manual control for video in the 5D2 initial firmware. They did finally respond and move 1 series AF to 5 series which was great though.
And you sure could see the imprints of that if you listened to one of the Canon regional execs give a Q&A in Europe well more than half a decade ago. It basically gave the impression of: we are kings of the hill, no we don't foresee any need to produce a higher performance, faster FF body, no we don't need to bother pushing FF sensors more we are the kings of sensors, no we don't need to do anything we are the kings, we are at least a decade ahead of any competitor for anything FF if not infinitely so and thus we are kings of the hill even as is nobody will be close to use for anything for at least a decade, we have the sales we have no need to respond or do anything, we are the kings, we are the kings, we will just keep on with what we have out now and rule the world as kings of the hill, no we don't see any need to improve our bodies, no we don't see that will we do that soon, we have no need to do anything but continue top sales and huge profits from the current lot, we are kings, etc. etc.
It was after I heard that Q&A I had a suspicion that they might be on a very unfortunate pathway in management and sounded like they had let the lets milk it until it rots MBA types and ultra-conservative Japanese exec types totally take over.
BUT at least with the Sony A7R we may have a way around it to some degree now since the 5D3 also finally came out and solved much of the rest of the old problems. So if the A7R does adapt and work well there is at a least a hobbled together way around it all now. Certainly not as ideal of flexible as having it all in one Canon body but it's a way so all the above doesn't really matter quite as much now (again assuming the lenses actually do adapt to the A7R well).
So all the above sort of talk is perhaps beginning to have become a little besides the point on the largest scale finally, what with the 5D3 and the AF and body performance and Sony with the A7R coming out and Magic Lantern with the 5D3 video hacks....
p.15 #20 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Paul Mo wrote:
It is both - together as a compact FF camera, and separately as a quality sensor.
Whether or not this sensor is 'quality' remains to be seen.
True, but we do know that 36mp is more than any Canon sensor around at the moment. But you are right, we are only engaging in speculation, based on Sony's historical sensor performance, and assuming quality will not go backwards. (It is tantalizing speculation! )
The compactness is just a bonus as far as I'm concerned. For the situations where compactness is my primary concern, I'd probably still carry my old APS-C NEX 5n anyway.
