p.166 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I have not seen it to this degree with my RX1 yet, though we don't get much snow around here. Of course, the RX1 uses a wider angle lens than the 55, as you know, and that's the most surprising part of this to me (given the FE 55 is uniquely designed AND is of a longer focal length where this sort of issue normally would not exist). I don't this reflects well on Sony's design/ engineering with the A7r (likely all about $$ in the end as I'm sure Sony is fully capable).
it can be about that noticeable in the snow with the rx1 (wish we had some here now). i suspect that just like with the rx1 it was not just about $$, but $$/performance/size. i'm sure they decided a little color shading was ok if the alternative was lower performance or a noticeable increase in size or cost. both the rx1 lens and FE 55/1.8 take advantage of all the space left after the mirror removal to put in a lot of optical correction that couldn't be included otherwise and probably delicately balance how close they can get the exit pupil to the sensor. closer means smaller and simpler correction of aberrations further away means more complicated design and larger size for same level of correction.
p.166 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Thanks for all quick responses.
This was drawback for me as I was planning to use A7r primarly with FE55, and use A7 for all other lenses. This was my plan due to:
- A7r sucking all dust to it's sensor (A7 I have changed lens already hundreds of times, A7r under 10 times = result is that A7 has no dust in sensor, A7r has lots of dust...)
- "shutter shock" issues with longer focal lengths (100mm, 135mm and 180mm)
Now I'm back to drawing board, would not like to get Otus just to solve this dilemma...
p.166 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
My quick and dirty solution to this problem in RX1-shots where this problem is noticeable (not very many) is to apply a radial filter almost as big as the image that reduces magenta towards the edges.
I have applied a radial filter with the width a little less than the image and height maybe twice the image (slightly off-centre, moved a little to the right.)
-30 on the green/magenta slider, feather 40. Increasing global vibrance to max while adjusting makes the job easier.
p.166 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
twoeye wrote:
My quick and dirty solution to this problem in RX1-shots where this problem is noticeable (not very many) is to apply a radial filter almost as big as the image that reduces magenta towards the edges.
A two minute job on Samulis image gives me this result:
I have applied a radial filter with the width a little less than the image and height maybe twice the image (slightly off-centre, moved a little to the right.)
-30 on the green/magenta slider, feather 40. Increasing global vibrance to max while adjusting makes the job easier.
After realizing LR has radial filters (thanks...I'm new to LR, just switched from Apple Aperture few weeks ago) this should be possible to make as preset.... Yes, very easy to make as preset - thanks Twoeye!
However for color accuracy work better just use f/8 or smaller aperture.
p.166 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
However for color accuracy work better just use f/8 or smaller aperture.
Samuli
IMHO, the best way to get good color accuracy is create a Lens Cast Correction profile in Capture One. This is what I use with my 28 Cron. Phase One has a video tutorial on how to do this.
p.166 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Jeff Kott wrote:
IMHO, the best way to get good color accuracy is create a Lens Cast Correction profile in Capture One. This is what I use with my 28 Cron. Phase One has a video tutorial on how to do this.
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Imaging-Software/Capture-One-Pro-7/Tutorials.aspx
Hmmm, how this is supposed to work when you use profiled workflow (you shoot X-rite colorchecker or similar to create DNG profile)? Correct colors to center of image with profiling and then twist whole results by applying Lens Cast Correction?
Also tutorial mentioned shooting through semitransparent filter/lens cap, how it's guaranteed that it's neutral? Does someone sell these, with proven neutrality of the material? I have few different brands and none of them is even close to each another or 100% neutral.
If color would be sufficient without profiling AND 100% neutral device would be used for reference image, then I could see this working.
However A7 or A7r colors without profiling have some issues; with all RAW software, including Capture One, these camera have issue that green undergrowth of forest has hue shift towards yellow. This has happened inall conditions I have been able to shoot this far (from cloudy condition to 12000K). It was corrected by creating ICC-profile Argyll (very painful process, as my Kodak Q60 targets are glossy it's very difficult to shoot them in the field) or DNG-profile with X-rite colorchecker. At least in most of my usage I'm forced to use profiling.
Samuli
Jan 22, 2014 at 01:30 AM
ZoranC Offline • • • [X]
p.166 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
- A7r sucking all dust to it's sensor (A7 I have changed lens already hundreds of times, A7r under 10 times = result is that A7 has no dust in sensor, A7r has lots of dust...)
Hmmmm, that's interesting, my experience while I had A7 next to my A7R was quite the opposite, A7 was the one that was acting like a dust magnet while A7R keeps staying rather clean even though I have changed lens on it hundreds of times so far.
p.166 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Hmmm, how this is supposed to work when you use profiled workflow (you shoot X-rite colorchecker or similar to create DNG profile)? Correct colors to center of image with profiling and then twist whole results by applying Lens Cast Correction?
Also tutorial mentioned shooting through semitransparent filter/lens cap, how it's guaranteed that it's neutral? Does someone sell these, with proven neutrality of the material? I have few different brands and none of them is even close to each another or 100% neutral.
Samuli
Hi Samuli,
I use an Expodisc - always seems perfectly neutral to me.
I think the answer to your other question is that you first do the Lens Correction Profile in C1 to deal with the color corner shift issue, then you can apply whatever other profile you want to the image.
p.166 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Official notice of a 'call for action' from Lloyd and friends that Sony, having made a fantastic camera should acknowledge their problem and fix it. The flaw is of course the shaky shutter, so the website is gathering signatures, starting out with famous guys:
p.166 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
I find it interesting that Chambers wants Sony to acknowledge that there is a problem, and that this is a limitation of the camera.
Sony will never do that, neither will any other corporation, because of liability consequences, and because it will kill of their camera, even though only few shots are affected by said problem. If Chambers doesn't know it, it means he has little knowledge of the business world.
So he is, in essence, requiring Sony to do something which they will never do, even if they fix the issue one way or another. Could it be that he is more interested in the problem festering like a soap opera? It is interesting that his last line on his report is that the Leica M Type 240 suffers from the same problem, according to him. Well, how come he didn't see it earlier if it is so severe?
p.166 #12 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Samuli Vahonen wrote:
Hmmm, how this is supposed to work when you use profiled workflow (you shoot X-rite colorchecker or similar to create DNG profile)? Correct colors to center of image with profiling and then twist whole results by applying Lens Cast Correction?
Samuli
Yes, that is how LCC works, it twists the results after the conversion is made, and there is no principal difference between canned and custom profiles in that respect.
Many of the tools in CaptureOne, including LCC, are enabled for use on tiff and jpg files.
p.166 #13 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
philip_pj wrote:
Official notice of a 'call for action' from Lloyd and friends that Sony, having made a fantastic camera should acknowledge their problem and fix it. The flaw is of course the shaky shutter, so the website is gathering signatures, starting out with famous guys:
Is the "having made a fantastic camera" his editorialising, or yours?
I find his approach quite heavy-handed. I would be quite happy myself for Sony simply to give us the *option* of losslessly compressed RAWs, but I doubt anything can be done about the shutter shake at this point. Just use a stable enough tripod (which of course cancels out some of the size/weight advantage).
p.166 #14 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
That's the problem really with the shutter shake, all the solutions bring you to the question whether a D800e would not be a better solution. Luckily I don't shoot anything longer than an 85mm.
p.166 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
philber wrote:
I find it interesting that Chambers wants Sony to acknowledge that there is a problem, and that this is a limitation of the camera.
Sony will never do that, neither will any other corporation, because of liability consequences, and because it will kill of their camera, even though only few shots are affected by said problem. If Chambers doesn't know it, it means he has little knowledge of the business world.
So he is, in essence, requiring Sony to do something which they will never do, even if they fix the issue one way or another. Could it be that he is more interested in the problem festering like a soap opera? It is interesting that his last line on his report is that the Leica M Type 240 suffers from the same problem, according to him. Well, how come he didn't see it earlier if it is so severe?...Show more →
I'm in complete agreement with you, all he's doing is grandstanding
During the early days of the digital evolution I followed his diatribe for a while, but soon grew tired of him and haven't read his blog until a link to it appeared a few post earlier here.
Frankly, I can think of several flaws that are more important than the "shutter slap" such as continuous focus being too slow. However neither prevent me from picking this camera up before any of my others.
In regard to the "shutter vibration" it is more noticeable with the A7r than a full size DSLR, but both versions have this issue. In fact third party suppliers have created profitable businesses catering to firm platforms and accessories to stabilize long lens shooting. It's simply an issue one has to learn how to mitigate, as there are methods that can be used to reduce these negative effects, even with the A7(r). In fact, I have used this camera with a 400mm lens and duplicated the issue, as well, indicated how it can be avoided by simply heeding (avoiding) critical shutter speeds as can be seen in the following link. http://www.pbase.com/mikeklar/image/153642597
Since posting this I've used various methods that help reduce this issue during the critical shutters speeds.
Yes, the A7r requires more care than say my D3x, but then this D3x has its own issues.
Cheers
p.166 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Beni wrote:
That's the problem really with the shutter shake, all the solutions bring you to the question whether a D800e would not be a better solution. Luckily I don't shoot anything longer than an 85mm.
I think if you can live with F-mount and the bigger package, the answer is a definite yes, unless you want movie mode.
p.166 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
I have just read the image quality and conclusion sections of the DPReview review, and I think it is spot on, not too critical, not going to easy on the camera either. Ultimately, they clearly liked it, but have a few very specific reservations, which I largely share.
For me, if Sony would add an adjustable shutter speed for auto ISO, and lossless compression, my complaints would more or less be done. The rest I can live with. This is for the A7. I have a few more problems with the A7R, which I wouldn't buy at this point.
p.166 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
miklar wrote:
Yes, the A7r requires more care than say my D3x, but then this D3x has its own issues.
I used a D3x with a 50mm mainly. Great to use, very good pictures. But too big.
How would you compare the pictures from A7r and D3x ? In terms of colors especially ?
Thanks !
p.166 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
marcbil wrote:
I used a D3x with a 50mm mainly. Great to use, very good pictures. But too big.
How would you compare the pictures from A7r and D3x ? In terms of colors especially ?
Thanks !
That's a good question and I can't give you an answer yet.
To explain why; all my accessories are centered around Nikon's D3 series (I have both the D3s and D3x) including strobes. The D3x's primary purpose is for artwork reproduction and was acquired for its accurate color rendering.
To get color temperature accuracy it is necessary to run the NEF files through Capture NX2 and from there to Photoshop in TIFF format. Adobe's "Camera RAW" seems to do something which is not acceptable to curators or artists.
With the ARW files I've used a RAW converter (at the moment I'm can't remember which one) that creates NEF files and ran them through Capture NX2, the results appeared much better. Sony's "Image Data Converter" is one I'm still struggling with and Capture One 7 is too subjective. In all fairness the only way to be sure is to shoot color charts under controlled lighting and measure the final output with a colorimeter. Something I plan to do in the next couple of weeks.
As a point of note; I did not acquire the A7r as a replacement of the D3x, but as a "walkabout" camera. However, to date the results have been surprisingly good. Notwithstanding its shortcomings if color reproduction turns out to be similar to the D3x, my right wrist and forearm will be even more grateful
p.166 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Miklar,
I've got a suggestion. Why don't you give PhotoNinja a try with your A7r files? I don't care for ACR/Lightroom's rendering and have been using Capture One 7 for my A7r files, but decided to try PhotoNinja and am very pleased with the initial results. If you email them, they will send a two week trial registration code. A7/A7r support is in the latest release candidate which you can download from the site.
Of course, the RX1 uses a wider angle lens than the 55, as you know, and that's the most surprising part of this to me (given the FE 55 is uniquely designed AND is of a longer focal length where this sort of issue normally would not exist). I don't this reflects well on Sony's design/ engineering with the A7r (likely all about $$ in the end as I'm sure Sony is fully capable).