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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.69 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The nex-7 was hampered by the floods in Thailand. I'm hoping they will have these for the December holiday shopping season.
Jman13 wrote:
Based on previous Sony releases, what's the time typically between announcement and availability? Strongly considering the 7 by itself for use with my adapted lenses, then I'll probably pick up the 24-70 if I like the camera....if I do, I'll probably be going barebones with m4/3, which I'll stick to for macro work and long and light telephoto work.
Jman13 wrote:
Based on previous Sony releases, what's the time typically between announcement and availability? Strongly considering the 7 by itself for use with my adapted lenses, then I'll probably pick up the 24-70 if I like the camera....if I do, I'll probably be going barebones with m4/3, which I'll stick to for macro work and long and light telephoto work.
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:05 PM
p.69 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
ceder wrote:
So, maybe great prices in Japan and the US, not in Europe for some strange reason...
I don't want to make this into a policital discussion, but socialism has its price. And even if I'm not too much into that, I still think the pricing is really good. They could have set it 50% higher and gotten away with it, at least for the a7.
For those of you that don't know: 10€ = ~7.4$, so we europeans pay a lot more.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:32 PM · View previous versions
So, maybe great prices in Japan and the US, not in Europe for some strange reason...
I don't want to make this into a policital discussion, but socialism has its price. And even if I'm not too much into that, I still think the pricing is really good. They could have set it 50% higher and gotten away with it, at least for the a7.
For those of you that don't know: 10€ = ~7.4$, so we europeans pay a lot more.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:32 PM · View previous versions
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:31 PM
p.69 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Actual availability is also one of the main things I'm waiting to read about in the press release. Likely anytime between 1st of November to 1st of December barring any issues.
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:31 PM
p.69 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Makten wrote:
I don't want to make this into a policital discussion, but socialism has its price. And even if I'm not too much into that, I still think the pricing is really good. They could have set it 50% higher and gotten away with it, at least for the a7.
For those of you that don't know: 10€ = ~7.4$, so we europeans pay a lot more.
Everything has it's price...it just depends on when you want to pay it, who pays it and how it's to be paid.
I also think the price is very reasonable given what most were expecting. The A7 really puts pressure an many different markets - high end APS and lower end DSLR FF...and even mid range DSLR.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions
ceder wrote
So, maybe great prices in Japan and the US, not in Europe for some strange reason...For those of you that don't know: 10€ = ~7.4$, so we europeans pay a lot more.
Everything has it's price...it just depends on when you want to pay it, who pays it and how it's to be paid.
I also think the price is very reasonable given what most were expecting. The A7 really puts pressure an many different markets - high end APS and lower end DSLR FF...and even mid range DSLR.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:39 PM
p.69 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
There are 2 kind of lenses which specially interest me for FF mirrorless: Slow compact pancakes or superfast (f1-f1.2) medium sized lenses.
I hope Samyang and/or Sigma engineers design some miniaturised (or faster) versions of their primes for this system.
I hope Samyang and/or Sigma engineers design some miniaturised (or faster) versions of their primes for this system.
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:39 PM
p.69 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
ZF, ZE, ZS, ZM (except for 2, expensive exceptions) and Touits are built by Cosina in Japan, and ZA are built by Sony in Japan.
The Zeiss lenses actually built by Zeiss in Germany, like the Otis, cine lenses, and a couple of ZMs, are much more expensive. Leica-like pricing, on those.I believe someone said "otus" is built in Japan.
Confirmed on Zeiss lens blog:
"For the manufacture of ZEISS lenses, we use a global production network of trusted partners in the optical industry that has been built up over many years. Otus lenses are made in Japan.
Best regards,
ZEISS Lenses Team"
douglasf13 wrote
carstenw wrote
Are these lenses actually being built by Zeiss, or are they built by Sony, as previously? Who sets the pricing?The Zeiss lenses actually built by Zeiss in Germany, like the Otis, cine lenses, and a couple of ZMs, are much more expensive. Leica-like pricing, on those.
Confirmed on Zeiss lens blog:
"For the manufacture of ZEISS lenses, we use a global production network of trusted partners in the optical industry that has been built up over many years. Otus lenses are made in Japan.
Best regards,
ZEISS Lenses Team"
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:39 PM
p.69 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Is this the RX1 thread all over again?
ceder wrote:
So, maybe great prices in Japan and the US, not in Europe for some strange reason...
ceder wrote:
So, maybe great prices in Japan and the US, not in Europe for some strange reason...
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:40 PM
p.69 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jman13 wrote:
Anyway, you want to spend a grand on an f/1.8 normal, go ahead.
The gaps I noted are present in every lend lineup, though. Even Leica...the 50 cron is $2K. The 50 Lux is nearly double, the 90 cron is $4 K.
you realize that leica charges $7k for the current 50 cron right? the $2k 50 cron is a 30 year old design and i expect this lens to outperform it in most aspects (well i certainly hope so anyway).
you're operating under the assumption that ~50/1.8 means crappy nifty 50. my assumption from the size and price is that this lens should outperform any 50/1.4 (leica asph and otus excluded) and have better build. shaving off that 2/3 of a stop allows for much higher correction than an f/1.4 lens for the same price point while still remaining reasonably compact. i expect the lens to smoke every AF 50/1.4 including the recent ZA. if it doesn't, then i'll probably agree that it is over priced.
i expect sony will probably put out a non-zeiss branded cheap 50/2 or 50/1.4 later. what i think they should do is put out a 50/1.5 sonnar clone with crappy build at a low price since it could be very small with attractive character. that is probably a poor move since people love imatest so much these days though.
in any event i can't imagine i'll buy this ZA 50/1.8 unless the "character" is amazing. i'm saving for the lux asph.
Anyway, you want to spend a grand on an f/1.8 normal, go ahead.
The gaps I noted are present in every lend lineup, though. Even Leica...the 50 cron is $2K. The 50 Lux is nearly double, the 90 cron is $4 K.
you realize that leica charges $7k for the current 50 cron right? the $2k 50 cron is a 30 year old design and i expect this lens to outperform it in most aspects (well i certainly hope so anyway).
you're operating under the assumption that ~50/1.8 means crappy nifty 50. my assumption from the size and price is that this lens should outperform any 50/1.4 (leica asph and otus excluded) and have better build. shaving off that 2/3 of a stop allows for much higher correction than an f/1.4 lens for the same price point while still remaining reasonably compact. i expect the lens to smoke every AF 50/1.4 including the recent ZA. if it doesn't, then i'll probably agree that it is over priced.
i expect sony will probably put out a non-zeiss branded cheap 50/2 or 50/1.4 later. what i think they should do is put out a 50/1.5 sonnar clone with crappy build at a low price since it could be very small with attractive character. that is probably a poor move since people love imatest so much these days though.
in any event i can't imagine i'll buy this ZA 50/1.8 unless the "character" is amazing. i'm saving for the lux asph.
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:41 PM
p.69 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jman13 wrote:
Will a 36MP FF sensor with a great lens produce files with far greater detail and potentially better tonal gradation than my 16MP Fuji? Yup. Will I ever see that difference based on the output I typically produce? Not likely.
It's not about the resolution, it's about the look of FF files with great creamy lenses
vs crop or super-crop (m43) with not-so-creamy lenses. You will see the difference even
in the 600x400px miniweb size
Will a 36MP FF sensor with a great lens produce files with far greater detail and potentially better tonal gradation than my 16MP Fuji? Yup. Will I ever see that difference based on the output I typically produce? Not likely.
It's not about the resolution, it's about the look of FF files with great creamy lenses
vs crop or super-crop (m43) with not-so-creamy lenses. You will see the difference even
in the 600x400px miniweb size
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:49 PM
p.69 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I have my doubt since all the recent Zeiss mirrorless lenses (Sony Zeiss included) are not as good as they should be. I sure hope they make a very good one for the sake of the system.
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:52 PM
p.69 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
snowboarder wrote:
It's not about the resolution, it's about the look of FF files with great creamy lenses
vs crop or super-crop (m43) with not-so-creamy lenses. You will see the difference even
in the 600x400px miniweb size
Bull. Unless by 'creamy' you mean ultra-shallow DOF..which is often not the desire of everyone around, frankly. And there are lots of lenses available for m4/3 and APS-C that give you very shallow DOF. Fuji's got a 23/1.4 (which will be shallower than the 35/2.8), the 35/1.4 (which will be the same DOF as the 55/1.8) and will soon have a 56/1.2 (same DOF as a future 85/1.8 for FF NEX). M4/3 has the 0.95 Voigtlanders, the 75/1.8 and the upcoming PL 42.5/1.2.
As you may recall, I did a test between m4/3, APS-C and FF and the results were no better than random chance as to identifying the correct format. There is some difference in the files to be sure that appear in very tough situations, at high ISO and in larger prints, but the myth that you can spot the FF 'look' at a glance in a web-sized shot is utter BS.
In fact, in that test, nearly half of the 108 respondents thought the Micro 4/3 image was the full-frame image. With the exception of ultra-shallow depth of field, the 'full frame look' from a general rendering situation is largely fueled by confirmation bias.
I am in no way saying there aren't differences and advantages to larger formats, but the 'look' you get from simply shooting on a somewhat larger sensor with all else being equal is not one of them.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 01:18 PM · View previous versions
It's not about the resolution, it's about the look of FF files with great creamy lenses
vs crop or super-crop (m43) with not-so-creamy lenses. You will see the difference even
in the 600x400px miniweb size
Bull. Unless by 'creamy' you mean ultra-shallow DOF..which is often not the desire of everyone around, frankly. And there are lots of lenses available for m4/3 and APS-C that give you very shallow DOF. Fuji's got a 23/1.4 (which will be shallower than the 35/2.8), the 35/1.4 (which will be the same DOF as the 55/1.8) and will soon have a 56/1.2 (same DOF as a future 85/1.8 for FF NEX). M4/3 has the 0.95 Voigtlanders, the 75/1.8 and the upcoming PL 42.5/1.2.
As you may recall, I did a test between m4/3, APS-C and FF and the results were no better than random chance as to identifying the correct format. There is some difference in the files to be sure that appear in very tough situations, at high ISO and in larger prints, but the myth that you can spot the FF 'look' at a glance in a web-sized shot is utter BS.
In fact, in that test, nearly half of the 108 respondents thought the Micro 4/3 image was the full-frame image. With the exception of ultra-shallow depth of field, the 'full frame look' from a general rendering situation is largely fueled by confirmation bias.
I am in no way saying there aren't differences and advantages to larger formats, but the 'look' you get from simply shooting on a somewhat larger sensor with all else being equal is not one of them.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 01:18 PM · View previous versions
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:10 PM
p.69 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Here is a new nokton vs lux asph comparison:
http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread.php?t=290&s=c0e24af45347e87befd9c613b15d67b9
I don't know how the new and old nokton compares...
sebboh wrote:
in any event i can't imagine i'll buy this ZA 50/1.8 unless the "character" is amazing. i'm saving for the lux asph.
RX1 Sonnar lens is produced by Sony too...
hiepphotog wrote:
I have my doubt since all the recent Zeiss mirrorless lenses (Sony Zeiss included) are not as good as they should be. I sure hope they make a very good one for the sake of the system.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 01:14 PM · View previous versions
http://www.leicaplace.com/showthread.php?t=290&s=c0e24af45347e87befd9c613b15d67b9
I don't know how the new and old nokton compares...
sebboh wrote:
in any event i can't imagine i'll buy this ZA 50/1.8 unless the "character" is amazing. i'm saving for the lux asph.
RX1 Sonnar lens is produced by Sony too...
hiepphotog wrote:
I have my doubt since all the recent Zeiss mirrorless lenses (Sony Zeiss included) are not as good as they should be. I sure hope they make a very good one for the sake of the system.
Edited on Oct 15, 2013 at 01:14 PM · View previous versions
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:12 PM
p.69 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jman13 wrote:
Yes, but would they really see major issues with a 16 megapixel image at 30"? I know when I view those up close they look just fine. Unless you are seeing the two with identical images side by side, you won't really notice much. From my experience, 16MP tops out around 30". I have a 40" print from my 1Ds II and that's a step too far...it starts to look a little mushy up close.
I would answer yes. I see artifacts at 30 inches in some prints even from 5DII files. But subject matter makes a difference too. Files that depend on subject isolation do a lot better when printed large. (I won't go too far off topic here but I put my thoughts on that into this article: http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/2013/04/the-quest-for-acceptable-print-size/ )
For me, if I'm making a fine art print and 5DII, I find that 24 inches is usually safe, 30 inches is about where image quality starts to noticable fall apart. With my 16mp APS-C NEX 5n, the fatherest I pushed image size and was still happy with any print was 24 inches; more typically I find the images look better if they don't get pushed past 18 inches, especially when the composition has lots of fine detail across the frame.
I'm thinking with the 36mp A7r I should be able to reach 30-36 inch territory most of the time quite comfortably. I am quite sure that those extra pixels are going to make a
difference
Yes, but would they really see major issues with a 16 megapixel image at 30"? I know when I view those up close they look just fine. Unless you are seeing the two with identical images side by side, you won't really notice much. From my experience, 16MP tops out around 30". I have a 40" print from my 1Ds II and that's a step too far...it starts to look a little mushy up close.
I would answer yes. I see artifacts at 30 inches in some prints even from 5DII files. But subject matter makes a difference too. Files that depend on subject isolation do a lot better when printed large. (I won't go too far off topic here but I put my thoughts on that into this article: http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/2013/04/the-quest-for-acceptable-print-size/ )
For me, if I'm making a fine art print and 5DII, I find that 24 inches is usually safe, 30 inches is about where image quality starts to noticable fall apart. With my 16mp APS-C NEX 5n, the fatherest I pushed image size and was still happy with any print was 24 inches; more typically I find the images look better if they don't get pushed past 18 inches, especially when the composition has lots of fine detail across the frame.
I'm thinking with the 36mp A7r I should be able to reach 30-36 inch territory most of the time quite comfortably. I am quite sure that those extra pixels are going to make a
difference
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:13 PM
p.69 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
artd wrote:
I would answer yes. I see artifacts at 30 inches in some prints even from 5DII files. But subject matter makes a difference too. Files that depend on subject isolation do a lot better when printed large. (I won't go too far off topic here but I put my thoughts on that into this article: http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/2013/04/the-quest-for-acceptable-print-size/ )
For me, if I'm making a fine art print and 5DII, I find that 24 inches is usually safe, 30 inches is about where image quality starts to noticable fall apart. With my 16mp APS-C NEX 5n, the fatherest I pushed image size and...Show more →
Yeah, a lot is photographer dependent on what you shoot. My point was that for me, who generally prints at 12x18 and smaller, with occasional prints at 24" and 30", I won't see a huge benefit in my output, and the 36 MP is totally wasted on me...I'd much rather have the PDAF of the A7.
Jman13 wrote
Yes, but would they really see major issues with a 16 megapixel image at 30"? I know when I view those up close they look just fine. Unless you are seeing the two with identical images side by side, you won't really notice much. From my experience, 16MP tops out around 30". I have a 40" print from my 1Ds II and that's a step too far...it starts to look a little mushy up close.For me, if I'm making a fine art print and 5DII, I find that 24 inches is usually safe, 30 inches is about where image quality starts to noticable fall apart. With my 16mp APS-C NEX 5n, the fatherest I pushed image size and...Show more →
Yeah, a lot is photographer dependent on what you shoot. My point was that for me, who generally prints at 12x18 and smaller, with occasional prints at 24" and 30", I won't see a huge benefit in my output, and the 36 MP is totally wasted on me...I'd much rather have the PDAF of the A7.
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:15 PM
p.69 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
We'll have to wait a little more but the new Sony FF mirrorless bodies and a bunch accompanying lenses are going to be announced tonight.
I will start a new official thread later on...
I will start a new official thread later on...
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:21 PM
p.69 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Sami Ruusunen wrote:
There are 2 kind of lenses which specially interest me for FF mirrorless: Slow compact pancakes or superfast (f1-f1.2) medium sized lenses.
I hope Samyang and/or Sigma engineers design some miniaturised (or faster) versions of their primes for this system.
I agree. If I do get this camera it will be for a small travel kit and I would love a 21mm f/3.5, 28mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.8 or f/2, and 85mm f/1.8 or f/2 set of lenses all with made as small as possible. Fast lenses would also be nice on a FF mirrorless but for me if I wanted to use fast lenses on it I would want to maintain great quality and that probably means bigger lenses and if I had bigger lenses I would like a bigger camera than this which would be easier for me to hold (but I have very large hands) and everyone might not share my preferences. I can see the advantages of an EVF for fast lenses, but I am still quite happy with my OVF for these lenses and the larger FF mirrorless I would be interested in would have to have an excellent EVF.
There are 2 kind of lenses which specially interest me for FF mirrorless: Slow compact pancakes or superfast (f1-f1.2) medium sized lenses.
I hope Samyang and/or Sigma engineers design some miniaturised (or faster) versions of their primes for this system.
I agree. If I do get this camera it will be for a small travel kit and I would love a 21mm f/3.5, 28mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.8 or f/2, and 85mm f/1.8 or f/2 set of lenses all with made as small as possible. Fast lenses would also be nice on a FF mirrorless but for me if I wanted to use fast lenses on it I would want to maintain great quality and that probably means bigger lenses and if I had bigger lenses I would like a bigger camera than this which would be easier for me to hold (but I have very large hands) and everyone might not share my preferences. I can see the advantages of an EVF for fast lenses, but I am still quite happy with my OVF for these lenses and the larger FF mirrorless I would be interested in would have to have an excellent EVF.
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:37 PM
p.69 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
So any current "non-intelligent" adapter for the NEX mount will be fine for this, correct? Will need to order both OM and C/Y.
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:48 PM
p.69 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Maybe it has already been discussed and I missed it, but does anyone know whether the FF NEXs will work with crop E lenses like Nikon does with their FF DSLR's?
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:02 PM
p.69 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
According to SAR, yes they will
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:08 PM
p.69 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
dasrocket wrote:
Maybe it has already been discussed and I missed it, but does anyone know whether the FF NEXs will work with crop E lenses like Nikon does with their FF DSLR's?
Yes it will...and the cool thing is you can use it in APS crop mode or still FF with vignetted corners.
Maybe it has already been discussed and I missed it, but does anyone know whether the FF NEXs will work with crop E lenses like Nikon does with their FF DSLR's?
Yes it will...and the cool thing is you can use it in APS crop mode or still FF with vignetted corners.
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:09 PM