p.44 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
after shooting nearly exclusively with the rx1 for a few months, i'm pretty sure those early results were due to user error. the only 35mm lens i've seen that might perform better at infinity than the rx1 lens is the zm 35/2, but it's very close and i've only compared files from an AA less leica to the version of the rx1 with an AA filter.
regarding the 2 versions of the upcoming NEX – i was initially thinking i would prefer the 24mp due to price, but if the 36mp one has no AA filter perhaps it is designed to perform better with rangefinder wides as well? that would definitely make it more attractive to me. the 24mp version is probably designed to be better and faster at AF, which is of no value to me...
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You might be right about the AA filter aspect but it might be also that the smaller pixels of the A7r are a factor against RF compatibility. Remember that the NEX-7 (24mp) performs worse than the 16Mp NEX models regarding the corners of RF wides.
p.44 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alba63 wrote: artur5 wroteRemember that the NEX-7 (24mp) performs worse than the 16Mp NEX models regarding the corners of RF wides.As far as I have read, it just lacks the specific micro lenses of the 16MP sensor for the WA corners.
i believe they both have somewhat offset microlenses, obviously they are different for the different pixel pitches. there are obviously many different parameters at play, but pixel density certainly isn't the only one – the 16mp sensor does significantly better than the 14mp sensor. my suspicion is that total amount and refraction of cover glass plays the dominant role in corner smearing while microlens alignment and physical design of the individual pixels plays the dominant role in light falloff and color shift.
p.44 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
Agreed, and that's why I'm having a hard time getting excited about the FF NEX, since the RX1's lens can't be duplicated on it, but I'm sure I'm in the minority.
I'm kind of excited but I'm also realistic enough to know that many people will be complaining of quality, especially if they're comparing to the RX1(R). That camera is simply too good to be duplicated with interchangeable lenses for the prices that have been rumored...
p.44 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The exciting thing about the FF Nex isn't that we think the IQ will equal or exceed the RX1, it's that hopefully we'll be able to get close to or comparable IQ at other focal lengths.
p.44 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jeff Kott wrote:
The exciting thing about the FF Nex isn't that we think the IQ will equal or exceed the RX1, it's that hopefully we'll be able to get close to or comparable IQ at other focal lengths.
IMO, It's reasonable to expect that a last generation FF 36Mp. sensor might equal or exceed the RX1's FF. 24Mp. sensor, ( even taking into account that that camera has been designed with a lens and sensor specifically matched ).
p.44 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
wfrank wrote: sebboh wrote..., but pixel density certainly isn't the only one – the 16mp sensor does significantly better than the 14mp sensor.I wasnt aware of that. Corner smearing, color cast or in what way?
p.44 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
wfrank wrote:
If that is the case it ought to give some increased hope for the even newer FF sensor design where I've been thinking less is more.
It's all a combination of pixel design, microlens design, sensor topping design and software. If we're expecting great performance for an entire range of M lenses, Sony will need to either adopt new pixel, microlens and topping designs, like Leica, or maybe something like new organic sensors or whatever.
p.44 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
IMO Sony didn't really test/optimize for color shift and related issues on the 7, even the E16 has it (IIRC).
My hope is that Sony see's the issue as a roadblock to making compact lenses for FF and will work to find a solution, the size of the 35/2.8 somewhat confirms that the sensor may be resistant to these issues.
p.44 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
They may be aiming the 24Mp model at NEX crop upgraders and new entrants to that system. The 36Mp non-AA 'should' work better with RF wides if they have put work into optimising the sensor in that direction, and less of any of the toppings won't hurt.
Certainly the 36Mp non-AA would be the camera for high end lenses for top results, as M lenses are among the very few that may be good enough to use it all, especially if they have improved on the D800e sensor. It might be obscenely good..
Of course, we will need someone to get the two top 35mm M class lenses from CZ and Leica as well as the new 35/2.8 - and see how they match up against the RX1. Huff most likely. My RX1 is not leaving though, it's a great package.
p.44 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
They may be aiming the 24Mp model at NEX crop upgraders and new entrants to that system. The 36Mp non-AA 'should' work better with RF wides if they have put work into optimising the sensor in that direction, and less of any of the toppings won't hurt.
Certainly the 36Mp non-AA would be the camera for high end lenses for top results, as M lenses are among the very few that may be good enough to use it all, especially if they have improved on the D800e sensor. It might be obscenely good..
Of course, we will need someone to get the two top 35mm M class lenses from CZ and Leica as well as the new 35/2.8 - and see how they match up against the RX1. Huff most likely. My RX1 is not leaving though, it's a great package.
I haven't been able to get anyone from the forum that has a Leica M 24mm or 21mm lens to step up to say that they would be attending PhotoPlus in NYC between October 24 and 26. No one yet at least.
p.44 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
LightShow wrote:
IMO Sony didn't really test/optimize for color shift and related issues on the 7, even the E16 has it (IIRC).
My hope is that Sony see's the issue as a roadblock to making compact lenses for FF and will work to find a solution, the size of the 35/2.8 somewhat confirms that the sensor may be resistant to these issues.
The 35mm only being f2.8 is what makes me think that the sensor won't be resistant to these issues. The RX1/lens combo is about the same depth as an M9+35/2 ASPH, but that took a fixed lens design for Sony to accomplish it.
p.44 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote: wfrank wroteIf that is the case it ought to give some increased hope for the even newer FF sensor design where I've been thinking less is more.It's all a combination of pixel design, microlens design, sensor topping design and software. If we're expecting great performance for an entire range of M lenses, Sony will need to either adopt new pixel, microlens and topping designs, like Leica, or maybe something like new organic sensors or whatever.
Right. I was merely thinking that if Sony moved in the right direction on sensor design from series 5 (older) to series 6 (younger) those steps (whatever they are) could be relevant in advancing their FF sensor too.
p.44 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote: LightShow wroteIMO Sony didn't really test/optimize for color shift and related issues on the 7, even the E16 has it (IIRC).
My hope is that Sony see's the issue as a roadblock to making compact lenses for FF and will work to find a solution, the size of the 35/2.8 somewhat confirms that the sensor may be resistant to these issues.The 35mm only being f2.8 is what makes me think that the sensor won't be resistant to these issues. The RX1/lens combo is about the same depth as an M9+35/2 ASPH, but that took a fixed lens design for Sony to accomplish it.
+1 Yes, I suspect we have our answer about the compatibility of rangefinder wides and these FF NEX's in the slowish speed of that 35 2.8.
p.44 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
wfrank wrote: douglasf13 wrotewfrank wroteIf that is the case it ought to give some increased hope for the even newer FF sensor design where I've been thinking less is more.It's all a combination of pixel design, microlens design, sensor topping design and software. If we're expecting great performance for an entire range of M lenses, Sony will need to either adopt new pixel, microlens and topping designs, like Leica, or maybe something like new organic sensors or whatever.Right. I was merely thinking that if Sony moved in the right direction on sensor design from series 5 (older) to series 6 (younger) those steps (whatever they are) could be relevant in advancing their FF sensor too.
I think it was mostly a happy accident, probably relating to sensor topping thickness and distances. The NEX-5N and NEX-7 were released at the same time, after the original NEX-5, and, one was better than the NEX-5 with M wides, while the other was worse. If Sony were specifically planning on better compatibility with M wides, I don't think the NEX-7 would have been so much worse.
Either way, the NEX-5N still has issues with M wides, and now we're talking about a much larger sensor in the FF NEX, so I'm not hopeful.
p.44 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote: wfrank wrotedouglasf13 wrotewfrank wroteIf that is the case it ought to give some increased hope for the even newer FF sensor design where I've been thinking less is more.It's all a combination of pixel design, microlens design, sensor topping design and software. If we're expecting great performance for an entire range of M lenses, Sony will need to either adopt new pixel, microlens and topping designs, like Leica, or maybe something like new organic sensors or whatever.Right. I was merely thinking that if Sony moved in the right direction on sensor design from series 5 (older) to series 6 (younger) those steps (whatever they are) could be relevant in advancing their FF sensor too.I think it was mostly a happy accident, probably relating to sensor topping thickness and distances. The NEX-5N and NEX-7 were released at the same time, after the original NEX-5, and, one was better than the NEX-5 with M wides, while the other was worse. If Sony were specifically planning on better compatibility with M wides, I don't think the NEX-7 would have been so much worse.
Either way, the NEX-5N still has issues with M wides, and now we're talking about a much larger sensor in the FF NEX, so I'm not hopeful.
Douglas,
Maybe we will be lucky and at least the sensors and design will allow Leica M WA lenses in the 35mm and 28mm lenses to work well with the new Sony FF A7 and A7r cameras. I am keeping my fingers crossed at least for that and maybe more. Whatever the outcome will determine what if any M WA lenses that I purchase.
p.44 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote: douglasf13 wrotewfrank wrotedouglasf13 wrotewfrank wroteIf that is the case it ought to give some increased hope for the even newer FF sensor design where I've been thinking less is more.It's all a combination of pixel design, microlens design, sensor topping design and software. If we're expecting great performance for an entire range of M lenses, Sony will need to either adopt new pixel, microlens and topping designs, like Leica, or maybe something like new organic sensors or whatever.Right. I was merely thinking that if Sony moved in the right direction on sensor design from series 5 (older) to series 6 (younger) those steps (whatever they are) could be relevant in advancing their FF sensor too.I think it was mostly a happy accident, probably relating to sensor topping thickness and distances. The NEX-5N and NEX-7 were released at the same time, after the original NEX-5, and, one was better than the NEX-5 with M wides, while the other was worse. If Sony were specifically planning on better compatibility with M wides, I don't think the NEX-7 would have been so much worse.
Either way, the NEX-5N still has issues with M wides, and now we're talking about a much larger sensor in the FF NEX, so I'm not hopeful.Douglas,
Maybe we will be lucky and at least the sensors and design will allow Leica M WA lenses in the 35mm and 28mm lenses to work well with the new Sony FF A7 and A7r cameras. I am keeping my fingers crossed at least for that and maybe more. Whatever the outcome will determine what if any M WA lenses that I purchase.
Rich
We would be lucky if Sony's aps-c sensors worked well with 28mm and 35mm M lenses. At is stands now, there are issues with many of them. Asking for better performance from a much larger sensor is optimistic, IMO.
p.44 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
Either way, the NEX-5N still has issues with M wides, and now we're talking about a much larger sensor in the FF NEX, so I'm not hopeful.
The M9 has plenty of issues with ultra-wides, color shifts galore. Easily fixed with a profile in your RAW workflow. Sony will be no different. Sharpness in the corners is the only question for me. The A7r is a buy day one for me and I'm an M9 owner. I do not wish to pay $7000 for an incremental upgrade from Leica. $2500 to Sony double the pixel count, 50% more resolution in practical terms, superior dynamic range and noise performance.