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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.35 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...
Sep 20, 2013 at 05:55 PM
p.35 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Lee Saxon wrote:
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...
I'd say FF Fuji X is pretty unlikely. It's risky, expensive (they'd have to buy the sensors from Sony, assuming they use the same tech as X-trans,) and they already advertise current X-trans as being "Fullframe quality," or something along those lines.
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...
I'd say FF Fuji X is pretty unlikely. It's risky, expensive (they'd have to buy the sensors from Sony, assuming they use the same tech as X-trans,) and they already advertise current X-trans as being "Fullframe quality," or something along those lines.
Sep 20, 2013 at 06:42 PM
p.35 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
I'd say FF Fuji X is pretty unlikely. It's risky, expensive (they'd have to buy the sensors from Sony, assuming they use the same tech as X-trans,) and they already advertise current X-trans as being "Fullframe quality," or something along those lines.
I agree. They stated several years ago that they would concentrate on the smaller format, and with the large aperture lenses that are released or just around the corner (23/1.4, 35/1.4 and 56/1.2), there's really no need for them to go larger. They offer an image quality that is hard to beat by anyone, regardless of sensor size.
Lee Saxon wrote
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...I agree. They stated several years ago that they would concentrate on the smaller format, and with the large aperture lenses that are released or just around the corner (23/1.4, 35/1.4 and 56/1.2), there's really no need for them to go larger. They offer an image quality that is hard to beat by anyone, regardless of sensor size.
Sep 20, 2013 at 07:50 PM
p.35 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
'there's really no need for them to go larger.'
If you make a quite extensive range of APS-C coverage lenses - 'interesting' or not - making a full frame camera would entail developing a new range of lenses, and the abandonment of the 'as good as fullframe' ideology would then ring hollow to its customer base. Maybe it could then be 'as good as medium format', lol.
Risky and expensive, technically challenging, long development lead times...they are better off in their existing niche maybe.
As for competition for Sony full frame cameras - and they will within six months very likely have no fewer than 4-5 of them, all 'mirrorless' - the RX1 is now a year old, and where is the competition for it?
Who will be the second mirrorless FF compact maker, and when will it appear? It's not even on the horizon now but things can change rapidly.
If you make a quite extensive range of APS-C coverage lenses - 'interesting' or not - making a full frame camera would entail developing a new range of lenses, and the abandonment of the 'as good as fullframe' ideology would then ring hollow to its customer base. Maybe it could then be 'as good as medium format', lol.
Risky and expensive, technically challenging, long development lead times...they are better off in their existing niche maybe.
As for competition for Sony full frame cameras - and they will within six months very likely have no fewer than 4-5 of them, all 'mirrorless' - the RX1 is now a year old, and where is the competition for it?
Who will be the second mirrorless FF compact maker, and when will it appear? It's not even on the horizon now but things can change rapidly.
Sep 20, 2013 at 08:13 PM
p.35 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I'd say FF Fuji X is pretty unlikely. It's risky, expensive (they'd have to buy the sensors from Sony, assuming they use the same tech as X-trans,) and they already advertise current X-trans as being "Fullframe quality," or something along those lines.I agree. They stated several years ago that they would concentrate on the smaller format, and with the large aperture lenses that are released or just around the corner (23/1.4, 35/1.4 and 56/1.2), there's really no need for them to go larger. They offer an image quality that is hard to beat by anyone, regardless of sensor size.
Yeah, the lenses are fantastic, but it's just the X-Trans that kind of kills things for some of us, although I'm hoping they make more Bayer-based cameras after this X-A1 release.
douglasf13 wrote
Lee Saxon wrote
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...Yeah, the lenses are fantastic, but it's just the X-Trans that kind of kills things for some of us, although I'm hoping they make more Bayer-based cameras after this X-A1 release.
Sep 20, 2013 at 08:59 PM
p.35 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
no worries, zeiss has you covered on the nex. 12mm, 24mm, 32mm, 50mm
Sep 20, 2013 at 09:46 PM
p.35 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I'm not convinced by the idea that Fuji won't go full frame because it would mean undermining the "APS-C is good enough" idea that their existing line-up is built on and developing a whole new line of lenses. It meant those things for Sony too, and they still did it.
Full frame mirrorless is going to be big. "Professionals finally ditching DSLRs" big. Even if Fuji is content to leave all those sales to Sony, there are going to be lots of others who aren't. We will see NEX FF competitors, and soon.
Full frame mirrorless is going to be big. "Professionals finally ditching DSLRs" big. Even if Fuji is content to leave all those sales to Sony, there are going to be lots of others who aren't. We will see NEX FF competitors, and soon.
Sep 21, 2013 at 12:04 AM
p.35 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I hope so, Lee. Sony paid a big price for their change of direction. People really dislike change in their corporations 
Sep 21, 2013 at 12:33 AM
p.35 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think Fuji will definitely release a FF mirrorless camera. But I don't expect it for at least 18-24 months minimum, and I bet they do a FF X100-style camera before releasing an interchangeable system.
More likely, I bet FF mirrorless is where Canon and Nikon will finally make their mirrorless mark. They've got sensors ready to drop in, and a live-view system that's been going through refinement. Canon at least has the M to figure out what NOT to do as well!
More likely, I bet FF mirrorless is where Canon and Nikon will finally make their mirrorless mark. They've got sensors ready to drop in, and a live-view system that's been going through refinement. Canon at least has the M to figure out what NOT to do as well!
Sep 21, 2013 at 04:22 AM
p.35 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
justruss wrote:
More likely, I bet FF mirrorless is where Canon and Nikon will finally make their mirrorless mark. They've got sensors ready to drop in...
That's what I was thinking too.
justruss wrote:
...and a live-view system that's been going through refinement....
Although this reminded me how horrendous the D700 & D800 live view systems were (for totally different reasons). Hope they don't make those mistakes again.
In fact, now that you mention it, you've got me worried about the NEX-FF live view too - at least if it's 30+ megapixels as rumored. There's way more room inside a D800 than an NEX so if Nikon couldn't fit in a powerful enough processor to debayer 36mp fast enough for non-row-skipped live view...
More likely, I bet FF mirrorless is where Canon and Nikon will finally make their mirrorless mark. They've got sensors ready to drop in...
That's what I was thinking too.
justruss wrote:
...and a live-view system that's been going through refinement....
Although this reminded me how horrendous the D700 & D800 live view systems were (for totally different reasons). Hope they don't make those mistakes again.
In fact, now that you mention it, you've got me worried about the NEX-FF live view too - at least if it's 30+ megapixels as rumored. There's way more room inside a D800 than an NEX so if Nikon couldn't fit in a powerful enough processor to debayer 36mp fast enough for non-row-skipped live view...
Sep 21, 2013 at 02:38 PM
p.35 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
I'd say FF Fuji X is pretty unlikely. It's risky, expensive (they'd have to buy the sensors from Sony, assuming they use the same tech as X-trans,) and they already advertise current X-trans as being "Fullframe quality," or something along those lines.
They are crazy if they do not. The formula here is so simple, even a corp might grasp it. "swiss army knife" Small, tough, versatile, and unbeatable image quality.
Despite all the "size no matter" from APS-C and 4/3 quarters, FF cameras are the benchmark today. Sure, in some circumstances the smaller sensors are OK--but in all sorts of ways we know they are not.
Sony has been much smarter than Fuji in this battle--IMHO-- simply because they are not trying to lock you into their system. Just the opposite. They are going out of their way to accommodate other systems.
As to the lens being the "profit center": Myth. I doubt Fuji is making a fortune, or anything on their APS-C line, simply because their is no large volume.
Sony is making us a small and highly versatile body. Fuji cannot say the same. Nor sadly, can anyone else.
Lee Saxon wrote
I mostly use alt glass, but it'd certainly be nice to have one or two lenses with autofocus for those snapshot, or especially hand-the-camera-to-someone, situations. So it's worth considering that, so far at least, Fuji has been picking far more interesting lenses to develop. Makes me almost more curious about their inevitable (?) NEX-FF competitor than the NEX-FF itself...They are crazy if they do not. The formula here is so simple, even a corp might grasp it. "swiss army knife" Small, tough, versatile, and unbeatable image quality.
Despite all the "size no matter" from APS-C and 4/3 quarters, FF cameras are the benchmark today. Sure, in some circumstances the smaller sensors are OK--but in all sorts of ways we know they are not.
Sony has been much smarter than Fuji in this battle--IMHO-- simply because they are not trying to lock you into their system. Just the opposite. They are going out of their way to accommodate other systems.
As to the lens being the "profit center": Myth. I doubt Fuji is making a fortune, or anything on their APS-C line, simply because their is no large volume.
Sony is making us a small and highly versatile body. Fuji cannot say the same. Nor sadly, can anyone else.
Sep 21, 2013 at 03:28 PM
p.35 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
'More likely, I bet FF mirrorless is where Canon and Nikon will finally make their mirrorless mark. They've got sensors ready to drop in...'
They start <b>years behind</b> and every sensor in a glossy new MILC camera they make just reminds the base how clunky (OK, unkind there so let's say huge and unsophisticated) the DSLR forebears are from the established players dominating the market in that segment.
I can just hear it now - 'where is the technology that should be going into something that can take my 70-200 mk6!' 'Are they saying they are abandoning DSLR, howl howl, what will I do? 'I hope the new CN mirrorless has full pro backup too.' 'Does Thom use one?'
What is the plan? Don't laugh - it happened to American car makers, took them ages and overseas affiliates to get back on track. And where are the great mirrorless (even in rumours) from C/N in APS-C or FF?
Sony make Nikon's FF sensors, and Canon's are the subject of ongoing derision from their own user base. YOU think the formula is simple from the POV of an enthusiast, but the execution, managerial direction/support and design nous are assuredly not.
They start <b>years behind</b> and every sensor in a glossy new MILC camera they make just reminds the base how clunky (OK, unkind there so let's say huge and unsophisticated) the DSLR forebears are from the established players dominating the market in that segment.
I can just hear it now - 'where is the technology that should be going into something that can take my 70-200 mk6!' 'Are they saying they are abandoning DSLR, howl howl, what will I do? 'I hope the new CN mirrorless has full pro backup too.' 'Does Thom use one?'
What is the plan? Don't laugh - it happened to American car makers, took them ages and overseas affiliates to get back on track. And where are the great mirrorless (even in rumours) from C/N in APS-C or FF?
Sony make Nikon's FF sensors, and Canon's are the subject of ongoing derision from their own user base. YOU think the formula is simple from the POV of an enthusiast, but the execution, managerial direction/support and design nous are assuredly not.
Sep 21, 2013 at 04:51 PM
p.35 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uhoh7 wrote:
Sony has been much smarter than Fuji in this battle--IMHO-- simply because they are not trying to lock you into their system. Just the opposite. They are going out of their way to accommodate other systems.
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
Sony has been much smarter than Fuji in this battle--IMHO-- simply because they are not trying to lock you into their system. Just the opposite. They are going out of their way to accommodate other systems.
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
Sep 21, 2013 at 05:11 PM
p.35 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Sony opened the E-mount specs two years ago.
Sep 21, 2013 at 05:42 PM
p.35 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Lee Saxon wrote:
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
Look, I'm no fanboy. Sony is FAR from perfect. But they gave us the nex-5 in may 2010. Fuji (as far as I can tell) has only recently delivered a decent manual focus system.
So far I haven't noticed a big Fuji legacy lens shooting contingency. Do they do it better than sony now?
digilloyd called the FF nex "an existential threat" ----potentially to everyone including Leica.
Considering the M240 debacle, Sony may figure a quick launch could draw away some waiting for the unobtainium and hearing about serious bugs. 7k USD heating pockets. Hint to sony: if you can produce good corners on the 21 super-elmar, we will all faint.....and then jump up to pre-order.
If Leica can't deliver the next generation M, perhaps Sony can
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
Look, I'm no fanboy. Sony is FAR from perfect. But they gave us the nex-5 in may 2010. Fuji (as far as I can tell) has only recently delivered a decent manual focus system.
So far I haven't noticed a big Fuji legacy lens shooting contingency. Do they do it better than sony now?
digilloyd called the FF nex "an existential threat" ----potentially to everyone including Leica.
Considering the M240 debacle, Sony may figure a quick launch could draw away some waiting for the unobtainium and hearing about serious bugs. 7k USD heating pockets. Hint to sony: if you can produce good corners on the 21 super-elmar, we will all faint.....and then jump up to pre-order.
If Leica can't deliver the next generation M, perhaps Sony can
Sep 21, 2013 at 08:51 PM
p.35 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Lee Saxon wrote:
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
wait, what are you talking about? not as in i don't believe you, but what are you actually talking about. i've never noticed any exposure modes unavailable with non-sony lenses (to be fair i only use ASM modes)? sure, you can't control aperture in camera on lenses that don't have electronic aperture control, but you can't do that with fuji either.
as far as i know sony released their e-mount lens spec to other manufacturers a couple of years ago and it's certainly much easier to shoot with manual focus lenses on NEX than fuji. also, zeiss makes separate bodies for ZE, ZF, and ZK (RIP) as well. as far as i know the reason for that is that they have different focus ring directions, some mounts can read aperture dials while others can't, and of course the differences in filter sizes.
are you just talking about the fact that fuji has an overpriced adapter for m-mount that allows you to enter exif info?
uhoh7 wrote
Sony has been much smarter than Fuji in this battle--IMHO-- simply because they are not trying to lock you into their system. Just the opposite. They are going out of their way to accommodate other systems.Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
wait, what are you talking about? not as in i don't believe you, but what are you actually talking about. i've never noticed any exposure modes unavailable with non-sony lenses (to be fair i only use ASM modes)? sure, you can't control aperture in camera on lenses that don't have electronic aperture control, but you can't do that with fuji either.
as far as i know sony released their e-mount lens spec to other manufacturers a couple of years ago and it's certainly much easier to shoot with manual focus lenses on NEX than fuji. also, zeiss makes separate bodies for ZE, ZF, and ZK (RIP) as well. as far as i know the reason for that is that they have different focus ring directions, some mounts can read aperture dials while others can't, and of course the differences in filter sizes.
are you just talking about the fact that fuji has an overpriced adapter for m-mount that allows you to enter exif info?
Sep 21, 2013 at 11:00 PM
p.35 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yep, e-mount is open to anyone that wants to use it. Sony did that a couple of years ago.
Sep 22, 2013 at 01:54 AM
p.35 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
are you just talking about the fact that fuji has an overpriced adapter for m-mount that allows you to enter exif info?
Ironic given that the current Fuji X based bodies are not so hot with wide rangefinder lenses. Certainly not as good as say a Sony NEX-5.
are you just talking about the fact that fuji has an overpriced adapter for m-mount that allows you to enter exif info?
Ironic given that the current Fuji X based bodies are not so hot with wide rangefinder lenses. Certainly not as good as say a Sony NEX-5.
Sep 22, 2013 at 05:15 AM
p.35 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
i'd be down for that. i'm ok with a smaller lcd to make room for the evf too.
I'd potentially be more interested in a RX1 with integrated finder and sealing than a NEXFF.
Would take care of about 98% of my shooting needs/style.
ulrikft2 wrote
Am I the only one that want a 1.1 or 1.2x upscaled model of the rx1 with a viewfinder, decent weather sealing and such?I'd potentially be more interested in a RX1 with integrated finder and sealing than a NEXFF.
Would take care of about 98% of my shooting needs/style.
Sep 23, 2013 at 10:20 AM
p.35 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Lee Saxon wrote:
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
The only thing Sony doesn't allow is aperture control from the lens with electronic-aperture lenses. Coincidentally this feature isn't in the E mount communications protocol and no Sony lens offers it either. E mount is designed for body control of aperture and doesn't currently permit communications of current aperture to the body from the lens.
Big shocker, Sony doesn't let 3rd party makers do something that the communications protocol doesn't support.
Sony has provided FAR more support for 3rd party makers than Fuji has, up to and including a public release of the mechanical specs for the lens mount (as a hint, there's only one other mount with a public release of the mechanical spec, which is the original K mount. Even the 'universal' mounts like M42 and M39 didn't have public releases of the specs, even if everyone knows them now).
Am I reading this right, are you saying that Sony are the ones going out of their way to accommodate other systems?
Fuji are the ones who allow lenses, even third-party ones, and potentially even third party adapters for alt lenses, to report aperture information to the camera for advanced exposure modes and EXIF data. Sony wouldn't open access to that even for ZEISS , their frakking LENS PARTNER; Zeiss had to waste who knows how much NRE and margin building separate bodies for the X and E Touits. That's a pretty big middle finger to accommodation.
The only thing Sony doesn't allow is aperture control from the lens with electronic-aperture lenses. Coincidentally this feature isn't in the E mount communications protocol and no Sony lens offers it either. E mount is designed for body control of aperture and doesn't currently permit communications of current aperture to the body from the lens.
Big shocker, Sony doesn't let 3rd party makers do something that the communications protocol doesn't support.
Sony has provided FAR more support for 3rd party makers than Fuji has, up to and including a public release of the mechanical specs for the lens mount (as a hint, there's only one other mount with a public release of the mechanical spec, which is the original K mount. Even the 'universal' mounts like M42 and M39 didn't have public releases of the specs, even if everyone knows them now).
Sep 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM