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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.28 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
Actually DOF of the same lens on smaller format is narrower than on larger format. You can check DOF calculator for that.
This has been discussed to death before, but in short, you can't compare DOF with same lens on different formats as they produce different images. If you're shooting a Pentax Q with a 21mm FF lens, and you switch to a FF DSLR using the same lens you go from a tight portrait FOV to an ultrawide, and the subjects you shoot would likely be different. If you did try and shoot people then you'd probably get a lot closer with the lens on FF, Q: what happens to your DOF calculator when you reduce focus distance for FF?
A: Reported DOF is shallower.
The facts are: if you maintain the same angle of view, shutter speed and total light captured (same entrance pupil diameter) then you get the same DOF regardless of format. If you maintain the same angle of view, shutter speed and exposure (same f/stop) then the larger format will have shallower DOF.
Finally, any format comparisons are useless until you take lens availability into account. Micro 43rds can produce the same shallow DOF as full frame (with the same framing) when using f/0.7 lenses (which don't exist), likewise medium format produces shallower DOF than 35mm when using f/1.4 lenses (which also don't exist).
This makes 35mm the optimum format for shallow DOF at common focal lengths due to the availability of f/1.4 lenses from 24mm to 85mm, hence the interested in a 35mm format NEX.
Actually DOF of the same lens on smaller format is narrower than on larger format. You can check DOF calculator for that.
This has been discussed to death before, but in short, you can't compare DOF with same lens on different formats as they produce different images. If you're shooting a Pentax Q with a 21mm FF lens, and you switch to a FF DSLR using the same lens you go from a tight portrait FOV to an ultrawide, and the subjects you shoot would likely be different. If you did try and shoot people then you'd probably get a lot closer with the lens on FF, Q: what happens to your DOF calculator when you reduce focus distance for FF?
A: Reported DOF is shallower.
The facts are: if you maintain the same angle of view, shutter speed and total light captured (same entrance pupil diameter) then you get the same DOF regardless of format. If you maintain the same angle of view, shutter speed and exposure (same f/stop) then the larger format will have shallower DOF.
Finally, any format comparisons are useless until you take lens availability into account. Micro 43rds can produce the same shallow DOF as full frame (with the same framing) when using f/0.7 lenses (which don't exist), likewise medium format produces shallower DOF than 35mm when using f/1.4 lenses (which also don't exist).
This makes 35mm the optimum format for shallow DOF at common focal lengths due to the availability of f/1.4 lenses from 24mm to 85mm, hence the interested in a 35mm format NEX.
Sep 02, 2013 at 03:38 AM
p.28 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Does all this DOF talk have this effect on anyone else? http://www.mortalkombatunited.com/public/style_emoticons/default//images/smilies2/SmileySuicide.gif
Sep 02, 2013 at 04:07 AM
p.28 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Not that extreme, but yes, I think another DoF discussion helps exactly none of us.
Sep 02, 2013 at 04:11 AM
p.28 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
carstenw wrote:
Not that extreme, but yes, I think another DoF discussion helps exactly none of us.
+1
Not that extreme, but yes, I think another DoF discussion helps exactly none of us.
+1
Sep 02, 2013 at 04:41 AM
p.28 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
carstenw wrote:
Not that extreme, but yes, I think another DoF discussion helps exactly none of us.
What actually bothers me is how much people quoting "DoF-calculators" while misunderstanding the basic concept are:
Actually, in reality, right now, in both a practical and a theoretical sense, willfully and intentionally - hurting the growth and misleading the understanding of photographic basics of people that make the mistake of actually reading them (and mistaking their statements for something actually connected to reality).
It's KIND of lurking the net, inserting comments like "camera ISO controls the light, making the light more noisy if you use a higher number". Not that that happens very often, but it's actually just as meaningful and correct as quoting DoF-calculators. That is: not meaningful at all and totally, completely, fundamentally wrong.
Not that extreme, but yes, I think another DoF discussion helps exactly none of us.
What actually bothers me is how much people quoting "DoF-calculators" while misunderstanding the basic concept are:
Actually, in reality, right now, in both a practical and a theoretical sense, willfully and intentionally - hurting the growth and misleading the understanding of photographic basics of people that make the mistake of actually reading them (and mistaking their statements for something actually connected to reality).
It's KIND of lurking the net, inserting comments like "camera ISO controls the light, making the light more noisy if you use a higher number". Not that that happens very often, but it's actually just as meaningful and correct as quoting DoF-calculators. That is: not meaningful at all and totally, completely, fundamentally wrong.
Sep 02, 2013 at 07:25 AM
p.28 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
theSuede wrote:
It's KIND of lurking the net, inserting comments like "camera ISO controls the light, making the light more noisy if you use a higher number".
Knowing that uniform, clean, white light in reality is a noisy storm of random photons is one of things nobody tells us until we dig deeper into the matter. I think especially camera review sites have created the notion that image noise is something that the sensor is responsible for. The knowledge has become better over the years, thanks to many warriors on forums like here.
Try saying in a discussion about lens veiling flare and dynamic range that lens flare increases the shadow noise....
It's KIND of lurking the net, inserting comments like "camera ISO controls the light, making the light more noisy if you use a higher number".
Knowing that uniform, clean, white light in reality is a noisy storm of random photons is one of things nobody tells us until we dig deeper into the matter. I think especially camera review sites have created the notion that image noise is something that the sensor is responsible for. The knowledge has become better over the years, thanks to many warriors on forums like here.
Try saying in a discussion about lens veiling flare and dynamic range that lens flare increases the shadow noise....
Sep 02, 2013 at 11:00 AM
p.28 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Regardless of technical explanations and theory stuff, the advent of a (fairly small and light) FF interchangeable Sony camera with
a) a very good high rez sensor (high twenties or 32-ish MP) with beautiful colour and large DR
b) a series of good, compact and light weight FF Zeiss lenses with sharpness up to the resolution and the "Zeiss look", all affordable: For a start, the classic trio tele, normal, wide (85/50/35) would perfectly do it for me...
c) a few innovative Sony tech, like Sensor stab inside, and maybe even sensor shift AF with movements in the "Z axis" (the new magic word?)
all this might make me reach for my wallte for the first time since quite a while. Another NIkon or Canon DSLR with "a little bit more for the same money" wouldn't.
Not sure how much of those "SR5 wonders" will actually materialize in a forseeable future, but at least I am thrilled. And yes, me too I think: Seems rather good to be true....
Bernie
a) a very good high rez sensor (high twenties or 32-ish MP) with beautiful colour and large DR
b) a series of good, compact and light weight FF Zeiss lenses with sharpness up to the resolution and the "Zeiss look", all affordable: For a start, the classic trio tele, normal, wide (85/50/35) would perfectly do it for me...
c) a few innovative Sony tech, like Sensor stab inside, and maybe even sensor shift AF with movements in the "Z axis" (the new magic word?)
all this might make me reach for my wallte for the first time since quite a while. Another NIkon or Canon DSLR with "a little bit more for the same money" wouldn't.
Not sure how much of those "SR5 wonders" will actually materialize in a forseeable future, but at least I am thrilled. And yes, me too I think: Seems rather good to be true....
Bernie
Sep 02, 2013 at 11:23 AM
p.28 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
So, it seems that another Zeiss FF lens is also planned, 55/1.8, according to SAR.
Sep 03, 2013 at 01:55 AM
p.28 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
f/1.8 sounds like a well-balanced choice for compactness and speed in a normal prime.
55mm is easier on the sensor than 50 mm, and from what I understand also an easier optical design.
Now there are rumors (SAR4) that more than two FF NEX cameras are under development. It becomes less and less likely that none of all this is true.
55mm is easier on the sensor than 50 mm, and from what I understand also an easier optical design.
Now there are rumors (SAR4) that more than two FF NEX cameras are under development. It becomes less and less likely that none of all this is true.
Sep 03, 2013 at 04:56 AM
p.28 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
if the 3500 USD kit with a kit-zoom has a decent zoom, I'm all in for that kit.
Sep 03, 2013 at 07:39 AM
p.28 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Well, SAR is in full NEX FF mode.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/three-e-mount-ff-to-come-within-5-months
1) SR5: Three E-Mount FF cameras are planed to be launched within the next five months! And let’s hope Sony doesn’t change this plan
2) SR5: Two are NEX-FF cameras and one is a DSLR shaped (ILCE) E-mount Full Frame camera.
3) SR5: The first camera(s) will be announced soon and be in Stock before Christmas (Sources didnt’ tell me if it’s one camera only or two that will be announced now).
4) SR5: There is a cheaper and a more expensive NEX-FF to come (Sources didn’t tell if both will come at the same time or not).
5) SR5: There will be (a...Show more →
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/three-e-mount-ff-to-come-within-5-months
1) SR5: Three E-Mount FF cameras are planed to be launched within the next five months! And let’s hope Sony doesn’t change this plan
2) SR5: Two are NEX-FF cameras and one is a DSLR shaped (ILCE) E-mount Full Frame camera.
3) SR5: The first camera(s) will be announced soon and be in Stock before Christmas (Sources didnt’ tell me if it’s one camera only or two that will be announced now).
4) SR5: There is a cheaper and a more expensive NEX-FF to come (Sources didn’t tell if both will come at the same time or not).
5) SR5: There will be (a...Show more →
Sep 05, 2013 at 04:19 AM
p.28 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
So to sum it up, three FF bodies, one cheap, one expensive, and one DSLR-like.
Three Zeiss lenses: 35/2.8, 55/1.8, 85/1.8.
Two zoom lenses, probably G.
All looks good, except the f/2.8 on the 35. I would have preferred a larger f/1.8.
Three Zeiss lenses: 35/2.8, 55/1.8, 85/1.8.
Two zoom lenses, probably G.
All looks good, except the f/2.8 on the 35. I would have preferred a larger f/1.8.
Sep 05, 2013 at 04:24 AM
p.28 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
and now we're all waiting to see what the corners will be like.
Sep 05, 2013 at 05:18 AM
p.28 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
joakim wrote:
and now we're all waiting to see what the corners will be like.
angular is my guess
and now we're all waiting to see what the corners will be like.
angular is my guess
Sep 05, 2013 at 05:22 AM
p.28 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
No CZ zoom would be a mistake, they want to offer something akin to the very good spec 16-70mm for APS-C NEX I beiieve, not all buyers will be prime only people. A 28-85mm f4 or so would do the job nicely. We'll see. Sony do not have a good rep for NEX lenses.
Ed, you can expect the 55mm (and hope the 85mm also) to be similarly small after seeing the tiny 35mm. The ZM 35/2.8 is considered a great lens, speed notwithstanding. SIze/weight is #1 priority - the RX1 concept in ILC.
Hopefully a cheaper model with 24Mp, a higher end one with more Mp and a 'test bed' with the adapt all lenses mechanism - maybe the latter in a DSLR body to make it more palatable to C/N users looking to a smaller extra body - the first step in an eventual migration.
How would a 400 gram body with 36Mp appeal? Add some high end primes to that, fit it with IBIS..the timing is very promising, even if it slips a couple of months. It's fun to try to guess what they will do. Will it look more like NEX or RX?
Ed, you can expect the 55mm (and hope the 85mm also) to be similarly small after seeing the tiny 35mm. The ZM 35/2.8 is considered a great lens, speed notwithstanding. SIze/weight is #1 priority - the RX1 concept in ILC.
Hopefully a cheaper model with 24Mp, a higher end one with more Mp and a 'test bed' with the adapt all lenses mechanism - maybe the latter in a DSLR body to make it more palatable to C/N users looking to a smaller extra body - the first step in an eventual migration.
How would a 400 gram body with 36Mp appeal? Add some high end primes to that, fit it with IBIS..the timing is very promising, even if it slips a couple of months. It's fun to try to guess what they will do. Will it look more like NEX or RX?
Sep 05, 2013 at 05:24 AM
p.28 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
No CZ zoom would be a mistake, they want to offer something akin to the very good spec 16-70mm for APS-C NEX I beiieve, not all buyers will be prime only people. A 28-85mm f4 or so would do the job nicely. We'll see. Sony do not have a good rep for NEX lenses.
Ed, you can expect the 55mm (and hope the 85mm also) to be similarly small after seeing the tiny 35mm. The ZM 35/2.8 is considered a great lens, speed notwithstanding. SIze/weight is #1 priority - the RX1 concept in ILC.
Hopefully a cheaper model with 24Mp, a higher...Show more →
Hopefully the camera will operate more like the RX-1 or a more traditional camera and come with a standard hot shoe. I am not a big fan of the wheels on the NEX7. That is why I went with the Fujifilm X-E1. But, we will have to wait and see. As I have mentioned previously, I truly expect that Sony will have something to show at least for the first NEX/E mount FF camera at Photoplus at the Javits Center which runs from October 24-26.
Rich
No CZ zoom would be a mistake, they want to offer something akin to the very good spec 16-70mm for APS-C NEX I beiieve, not all buyers will be prime only people. A 28-85mm f4 or so would do the job nicely. We'll see. Sony do not have a good rep for NEX lenses.
Ed, you can expect the 55mm (and hope the 85mm also) to be similarly small after seeing the tiny 35mm. The ZM 35/2.8 is considered a great lens, speed notwithstanding. SIze/weight is #1 priority - the RX1 concept in ILC.
Hopefully a cheaper model with 24Mp, a higher...Show more →
Hopefully the camera will operate more like the RX-1 or a more traditional camera and come with a standard hot shoe. I am not a big fan of the wheels on the NEX7. That is why I went with the Fujifilm X-E1. But, we will have to wait and see. As I have mentioned previously, I truly expect that Sony will have something to show at least for the first NEX/E mount FF camera at Photoplus at the Javits Center which runs from October 24-26.
Rich
Sep 05, 2013 at 05:57 AM
p.28 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I'm with you Rich, in hoping that it has somewhat traditional controls and feel.
Sep 05, 2013 at 06:09 AM
p.28 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Apparently one new FF will be DSLR-like in form, and the other two will be NEX in form, so I doubt we'll see traditional controls, but no big deal. I've used Leica, NEX, Fuji and now the RX1 over the last few years, and it's very easy to move between them, control-wise. In fact, I found the Nex-7's dial setup to be very good and fast.
Sep 05, 2013 at 07:39 AM
p.28 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yes, are we saying the 85/1.8 ZA is now most likely FF? That is good, and I thought that would make sense given it's a tele. If they continue down a 1.8 high quality Zeiss prime route then that sounds like a wonderful balance to me.
But they would need a 35/1.8, of course.
As for handling, as long as it's well thought out I have no problem with traditional vs contemporary. One thing I hate is big assed screens that hardly get used dominating the ergonomics though, which I assume Sony will continue with.
I hope it has an electronic shutter. We don't want any noise.
But they would need a 35/1.8, of course.
As for handling, as long as it's well thought out I have no problem with traditional vs contemporary. One thing I hate is big assed screens that hardly get used dominating the ergonomics though, which I assume Sony will continue with.
I hope it has an electronic shutter. We don't want any noise.
Sep 05, 2013 at 07:46 AM
p.28 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
ricardovaste wrote:
Yes, are we saying the 85/1.8 ZA is now most likely FF? That is good, and I thought that would make sense given it's a tele. If they continue down a 1.8 high quality Zeiss prime route then that sounds like a wonderful balance to me.
But they would need a 35/1.8, of course.
As for handling, as long as it's well thought out I have no problem with traditional vs contemporary. One thing I hate is big assed screens that hardly get used dominating the ergonomics though, which I assume Sony will continue with.
I hope it has an electronic shutter. We...Show more →
Definitely should have some sort of remote (preferably electronic) release and not by wireless only.
Rich
Yes, are we saying the 85/1.8 ZA is now most likely FF? That is good, and I thought that would make sense given it's a tele. If they continue down a 1.8 high quality Zeiss prime route then that sounds like a wonderful balance to me.
But they would need a 35/1.8, of course.
As for handling, as long as it's well thought out I have no problem with traditional vs contemporary. One thing I hate is big assed screens that hardly get used dominating the ergonomics though, which I assume Sony will continue with.
I hope it has an electronic shutter. We...Show more →
Definitely should have some sort of remote (preferably electronic) release and not by wireless only.
Rich
Sep 05, 2013 at 07:51 AM