p.5 #2 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Long time lurker, not much of a poster here.
Lisa ignore anything negative, your images are beautiful. I've looked at your site and you are definitely not an elitist.
To the OP, I think you are a bit confused. You are not separating your activities well.
You want beautiful women to pay you sometimes to photograph them? What does that mean? You are either paying them, or, if you are very good, they are paying you,usually via an agency ormagazine or hair stylist, MUA, etc.
You need to remove money from this equation completely if your only goal is to photograph beautiful people, since you are not famous and are unheard of, as of today. You will not make any money doing this, period, so get over your arrogance here. Stick to your day job.
If you specifically want to photograph beautiful people, be honest, and pay them for their time.
If you want to make money, you need to remove 'beauty' from your equation, because you will get no where doing that in the beginning.
I strongly suggest you follow Lisa's lead. She's a pro and an artist, two very separate things.
p.5 #3 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I really don't understand why this keeps going.
Like Lisa, I'm a professional photographer and I shoot whoever is willing to pay my fees. I don't care what they look like. The attractive clients in a nice, artistic photograph, are more likely to get on my website.
Like Lisa, I also do free artistic shoots on my own, usually with ballet dancers. I am very, very discerning about who I will shoot for free. Not only does their dancing have to be up to par, but they have to be attractive as well. I'm very careful about how I approach these, and I make sure the dancers and parents (if they're younger) know that it's an invitation-only sort of thing. I've never had an issue. If a parent of a dancer who was not invited ever approached me, I would explain that I can only do so many free sessions a year, but I do have openings for my paid sessions.
Am I discriminating in how I choose who I pick for my dancers? You can use that word if you choose, but it's no different than an actor trying out for a part in theatre, a dancer auditioning for a professional company, or a person interviewing for a plain old job. Somebody gets it, others don't. That's life.
The only reason Lisa is being hen-pecked here is because she's the only one among us pro photographers trying to explain on this forum how this works in reality. We all do it. If a pro is not doing personal work, well, he's missing out on exercising some creative expression. But they are clearly in the minority. So instead of getting judgmental, let's all go find an attractive person to do our next free shoot with!
p.5 #4 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
friscoron - I can't speak for anyone else, but my questions to Lisa weren't about personal work, I was asking about how she publicly treats her paying customers. Initially she said that she doesn't post photos of her ugly clients on facebook or on her blog. That surprised me because my clients feel that sharing their images on fb and my blog is part of the "experience". I'm sure Lisa prepares her clients to expect differently and as long as they're happy, that's all that matters. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving more attention (via the blog or fb) to certain clients simply because of their physical appearance.
p.5 #5 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I think most people do this on some level, whether we admit it or not. I mean how we judge appearance can be different, but when we are shooting we all pick and choose based on appearance. I mean, a seasoned street photographer likely has different criterion than someone like the OP, but he is still going to pick and choose based on appearance.
That said I think this boils down to an argument of commonality, there is a whole lot of people who think like the OP. And it's hard to make money if all you can or want to do is what a lot of others can and want to do. (His intention is both easier and more common).
p.5 #6 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Ron, you explained this SO much better than I could. And Tony, only I would know how I treat my clients. You guys can speculate all you want, but at the end of the day, if I were treating people like crap and making them feel poorly about themselves, I wouldn't be getting any customers or repeat customers. And for the record, I do not believe I have ever shot an 'ugly' client. I described some obviously extreme examples to try to get my point across, but I do believe I can find beauty in one form or another in everyone I shoot. EVERYONE gets a sneak peek on Facebook. Yes, some may get a bigger sneak peek than others. I am also very discerning about what goes on my blog and website. That's just life. Put your best foot forward. You (general you) may not like it, but beauty sells and that is just the way the world works. Don't like it? Take it up with human nature. Or someone other than me. I'm just playing the game that has been around since the dawn of human kind.
p.5 #7 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa, I was basing my comments off your first post.
my main points of advertising (my website, blog, Facebook page, business cards, etc) will only be filled with images that represent my brand and show what I want to sell. Call it shallow, call it whatever you want, but I am not going to include an image of a senior girl who is 200lbs overweight, covered in acne, and wearing a Dora T-shirt
I have said repeatedly that you are a great photographer and your clients must be very happy. I'm simply expressing my personal opinion on this issue and how I prefer to publicly treat my clients. I'm allowed to do that, right?
p.5 #8 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I never said you weren't. I was clarifying (since I feel as though I'm being accused of treating my clients like crud) that I *do* in fact treat ALL of my clients very very well. But you insist on arguing with me in circles. This is beating a dead horse at this point.
p.5 #9 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I'm not a pro photographer, but can relate many of these comments to my own profession.
Lisa's approach is excellent! She's obviously an artist.
She has shared information here that she handles the "deal with the customer" issues very, very well. "I treat my customers like gold." When you look carefully at her posts, you have seen that her customers continue to return for more photo work. That says a great deal!
More than 85% of our work comes from repeat work for or referrals by clients; we feel that says something about us. Lisa's customers keep coming back because of her art an because of how she treats them.
All of us who are in business must be selective in presenting ourselves so we can stay in business. Several on this forum have stated, for example, that they have separate web sites to promote their business. "Promote your family photography business separately from boudoir work," for example.
This sort of discussion is customer relations. Lisa has shared excellent insights in how she works with her customers. The fact that customers have come to her repeatedly over several years says that what she is doing works.
Principles don't change. Methods and calendars and techniques do. Time after time, on this forum, people seem to think that having the right equipment is the key to success Or the right web site, or some other issue. Professional photography is for adults. It might be interesting to poll those who have fussed at Lisa and see how close each comes to matching both the art and the business sides of her photography.
This does not address the OP's initial question. I could not and will not use his premise in my work. At the same time, I have turned down a few potential clients after I learned enough about them to see that it would not be a good fit -- for them and for me. We parted friends.
p.5 #10 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
My post was directed to friscoron, not you. That's why I started it with his name. I was explaining my previous comments in this thread, not arguing. I don't know what I need to do to make you understand I'm not attacking you, I'm discussing business practices and this discussion originated from your comments. Feel free to not respond. I never responded to your comment at the top of this page as I felt we'd reached the natural end to our discussion and have no intentions to beat a dead horse.
p.5 #12 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
CRFTony wrote:
Lisa, I was basing my comments off your first post.
I have said repeatedly that you are a great photographer and your clients must be very happy. I'm simply expressing my personal opinion on this issue and how I prefer to publicly treat my clients. I'm allowed to do that, right?
I think Lisa was using hyperbole to make a point, just as she showed those Walmart shoppers. It was just a point, in a sense, to support that we (all of us, including our potential clients) like to see attractive people in pictures.
I'll lay money that Lisa has not shot a senior girl who was 200 lbs overweight, covered in acne, and wearing a Dora midriff. But if she did, with Lisa's wonderful photography techniques and her mad photoshop skills, the client would probably come out looking like an 18-year-old version of Dora.
p.5 #13 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Peter Figen wrote:
Some of the most interesting subjects are those that don't fit the standard definition, whatever the hell that is, of what attractive is. One of my most well known images - a black and white portrait of the diabetes afflicted Willie Dixon you would have turned down. Are you a creep? Have no idea. Shallow, definitely.
p.5 #14 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
friscoron wrote:
I think Lisa was using hyperbole to make a point, just as she showed those Walmart shoppers. It was just a point, in a sense, to support that we (all of us, including our potential clients) like to see attractive people in pictures.
I'll lay money that Lisa has not shot a senior girl who was 200 lbs overweight, covered in acne, and wearing a Dora midriff. But if she did, with Lisa's wonderful photography techniques and her mad photoshop skills, the client would probably come out looking like an 18-year-old version of Dora.
I think she was not....
p.5 #15 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa_Holloway wrote:
I put everyone up on Facebook. Everyone gets a sneak peek. I don't treat any of my clients differently...they are all treated the same way. What goes onto my website galleries though is purely up to my discretion. I only show what I consider to be my best work and work that I want to use to advertise to the public.
You don't treat any of your clients differently......You don't put all clients on your website. I'm thinking that is not treating all clients the same....but that is just me
p.5 #17 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I think one of the most rewarding things about photography is taking someone who may not meet all of the requirements of what America calls "beautiful" and get them to loosen up show some real emotion in good light and present them with an image of themselves that they as well as yourself would be proud to display on there wall and your own website.....Isn't that what people photography is all about?
p.5 #18 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Michaelparris wrote:
You don't treat any of your clients differently......You don't put all clients on your website. I'm thinking that is not treating all clients the same....but that is just me
MIchael,
This statement is not thought through very well!
If you wanted to be totally accurate, you would need a complete list of Lisa's clients (which you are not going to get), inventory all the photos she has made for clients, make a complete list of all the photos she has placed on her web site during her business career (which you're not going to get) and then compare the two lists.
That's just for starters. Then you would have to count the number of photos taken for or purchased by each client and see whether there was or was not an proportionate number of postings for each client.
Have you that?
Lisa has already said that she treats her clients like gold. Her postings on her web site demonstrate that she has photographed some families for several years. She's doing several things extremely well!
She's also shared information on how she does her photography, processes her images, and handles some of her business plan.
You should be paying her to read what she writes.
I doubt that she claims to be perfect (None of us are.) She is an exceptional photographer and we can learn from her, as well as from one another. Attacking someone else because they do not do it your way is not the way to learn.
p.5 #19 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
GCasey wrote:
MIchael,
This statement is not thought through very well!
If you wanted to be totally accurate, you would need a complete list of Lisa's clients (which you are not going to get), inventory all the photos she has made for clients, make a complete list of all the photos she has placed on her web site during her business career (which you're not going to get) and then compare the two lists.
That's just for starters. Then you would have to count the number of photos taken for or purchased by each client and see whether there was or was not an proportionate number of postings for each client.
Have you that?
Lisa has already said that she treats her clients like gold. Her postings on her web site demonstrate that she has photographed some families for several years. She's doing several things extremely well!
She's also shared information on how she does her photography, processes her images, and handles some of her business plan.
You should be paying her to read what she writes.
I doubt that she claims to be perfect (None of us are.) She is an exceptional photographer and we can learn from her, as well as from one another. Attacking someone else because they do not do it your way is not the way to learn....Show more →
I simply mean she states that she discriminates on who she puts on her site...If they are pretty enough they make it to her site. I choose not to do business that way.
I should be paying her?! Sorry I wont drink that kool-aid.
I was far from attacking her just trying to point out what "I" (my OPINION) thought was a small indiscretion. Nothing more nothing less.
p.5 #20 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
You don't treat any of your clients differently......You don't put all clients on your website. I'm thinking that is not treating all clients the same....but that is just me
"she discriminates . . . ."
Perhaps unintentionally, it comes across as an attack.
