p.2 #1 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Peter Figen wrote:
Some of the most interesting subjects are those that don't fit the standard definition, whatever the hell that is, of what attractive is. One of my most well known images - a black and white portrait of the diabetes afflicted Willie Dixon you would have turned down. Are you a creep? Have no idea. Shallow, definitely.
The OP's opening message and a lot of the remarks in this thread remind me of what the head of Abercrombie & Fitch said publicly a few days ago.
I think it's sad that so many people have such a limited and narrow media-brainwashed view of what beauty is all about. Everyone is beautiful in their own way, and one of the greatest challenges (and accomplishments) to being a photographer is to learn to see and capture what is unique and special about each person.
Personally, I don't think very many people with the OP's attitude and mindset will ever produce anything of notable artistic merit. Such narrow mindedness is the polar opposite of what art and creativity is all about.
p.2 #2 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Even if I felt the way the OP did about the types of subjects I wanted to photograph, I can't imagine ever revealing that in a public forum. I'm way more interested in the story someone's face (or hands) can tell me than in how pretty the outer layer is. So, Strobo, it appears we are in accord.
p.2 #3 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I know what I am looking for in my work, and I am not ashamed to admit it. Some of you have stated a similar interest and others call me shallow. I really do not care if you think I am less of a person for it. Every artist has a vision, and it is often scrutinized...the more controversy the better. It has been said there is no such thing as bad press...
My question was not intended to start a debate on the right or wrong of seeking out beautiful subjects. I was looking for feedback on who is actively doing this and how it is being managed.
I have received PMs from some folks who don't want to be subject to the scrutiny of a public forum like this, but have suggestions.
If you don't like what I am looking at doing, then don't like it. Save the judgements for the almighty...
If you have suggestions, on the other hand, I am all ears...
p.2 #4 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
On another note, I realize this is a controversial subject may draw an emotional response; however, personal attacks will not be tolerated.
I have been courteous to everyone who has offered their thoughts on this matter. If you can't offer your comments and come up with anything better than an insult, then your post will be flagged.
p.2 #5 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Have you seen the backlash against A&F this month because they don't want "fat people" wearing their clothes? Good luck with this business model; for me, some of the most engaging shots I have are with the "less than model quality" people with whom I've had the pleasure to work.
p.2 #6 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
This is an interesting question, because I think most of us have felt this way but don't want to admit it. However, I shot a HS senior recently who was heavy and not all that attractive. By working with her pose . . . putting the jaw forward to get rid of the chins, tipping her head down to make her look up and show more of her eyes . . . turning her so her arms didn't look that large and cropping them if they didi . . . her mother couldn't believe it was her daughter. That became her yearbook photo.
That session, for me, trumped all the others who came in thinking they were God's gift to humanity.
p.2 #7 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Richard Booth wrote:
This is an interesting question, because I think most of us have felt this way but don't want to admit it. However, I shot a HS senior recently who was heavy and not all that attractive. By working with her pose . . . putting the jaw forward to get rid of the chins, tipping her head down to make her look up and show more of her eyes . . . turning her so her arms didn't look that large and cropping them if they didi . . . her mother couldn't believe it was her daughter. That became her yearbook photo.
That session, for me, trumped all the others who came in thinking they were God's gift to humanity.
There is definitely a skill and market in what you're doing Richard. For me, it is not something I wish to partake in. There is a reason Kate Upton is on the cover of Vogue and Roseanne Barr isn't.
If you ask a 1000 photographers if they wanted a free model/photo session with Kate Upton or Roseanne Barr, do you even have to debate who the majority would chose? Of course not...Apparently I am one of the few who is brave enough to admit it. It's not a popularity contest for me. I don't care if people don't like my approach.
A&F doesn't want fat people wearing their clothes because that is not their target market. Who wants to see some 5 foot tall, 300 lb person wearing A&F shorts hiked up to their crack? They are in the business of selling clothes...and putting their clothes on overweight people does not make people want to buy them.
p.2 #8 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I think it's healthy that you're aware, open, and honest about what you want in your art. It is not anybody's place to judge you for your definition of beauty or quest to photograph it (for money).
Word-of-mouth and targeted advertising are the first ideas that come to mind to start off. While it can come across as creepy, I have seen photogs hand out business cards to people on the street who they wanted to shoot. Disclaimer -- I have no idea the reputation/credibility of these photographers, but it's the same as a "cold call" that will generate some leads. This could expose you to potentially seedy leads as well, so be careful.
For turning away clients, we've all seen the signs "We reserve the right to refuse service to anybody for any reason" in stores. Just be cognizant of any anti-discrimination laws that you may be subject to in your area, but in general you are permitted to manage your brand to have whatever image you want. You can tell people that they don't fit the image that you are trying to portray, for whatever reasons you define. They may be unhappy and you may face a "PR backlash" or get some bad reviews somewhere, but go and ask the average person how they're treated by any "exclusive" place and it'll all be basically the same.
p.2 #10 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
just say "I'm afraid I'm photographing people that fit my portfolio and I have limited time to do this because it's not my full-time job" to turn down people.
It's the truth at least...and generally not insulting...
I do this as a hobby too so I can understand where you're coming from. Once you get to the point where too many people ask you to shoot w/ them "to build your port", it's when you can ask for payment or be more selective.
p.2 #11 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
It's also interesting the the only person posting in this thread that agrees with the premise put forth here has another thread of their own emphasizing in all caps that GORGEOUS people had been photographed.
Photographing gorgeous people might make you feel like you will enjoy looking at your images more, but making great image of gorgeous people is actually more difficult as the gorgeous often gets in the way, and that's all you see.
It reminds me of a photographer friend who volunteered nursing in Africa and somehow got a meeting with Nat Geo on his way back one summer. They told me he had ordinary pictures of extraordinary places and they were looking for extraordinary images of extraordinary places.
p.2 #12 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
What an interesting topic. I think LJHolloway pretty much hit the nail on the head; shoot everyone who pays you money, but not everyone needs to go into your portfolio. You said yourself that you're not that experienced with portraiture, and shooting people of all different sizes and shapes can only bolster your confidence and abilities.
p.2 #13 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I will add that I am VERY confident in my abilities to bring out the best in all of my subjects. I'm not crippled or handicapped because I 'only photograph gorgeous people.' I am very capable of photographing those who do not fit that criteria, and making them look amazing and ensuring that they love their photos as much as the next person. I'm just admitting (faulty as it may be) that I find it more enjoyable photographing people who are photogenic. Is that wrong? I don't think so...it's just being honest. Also admitting that I only put these types of people out there to advertise my work is again, just being honest. People are going to be more attracted to and more inclined to look at photos of gorgeous people vs something else, aka more bookings and more money for me. It's just business.
p.2 #14 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Can someone please explain to me why we don't see 300lb women covered in acne advertising ANY product in ANY magazine or on ANY website (peopleofwalmart.com doesn't count)? Because no one wants to buy a product advertised like that. I'm selling a product, plain and simple. Is it right or wrong? I'm sure we all have our feelings on the matter but it is what it is. Human nature. Do I turn away clients that may not make the cut for my website? Absolutely not. I'm responsible for helping to clothe and feed almost 10 kids...if someone comes to me with money, I will provide my services in the same manner I would to anyone else. I don't understand what is so wrong about admitting what we ENJOY photographing though. How is that wrong? We are artists and all have our own preferences. I may not like photographing grungy homeless people but I'm not going to begrudge someone else the right to enjoy that type of photography.
Also, I think the OP mentioned that he was not doing this for money...aka it is going to be more of a hobby if I understood correctly. Who are you (general you) to tell him he can't pick and choose what and who he wants to photograph?? When I go out photographing for myself/for fun, I put out model calls and usually have a very specific look in mind. I dare anyone to tell me I cannot do that.
p.2 #15 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
to the OP, you do not have to show everything you shoot on your website/blog. i'd say shoot it all...make everyone feel great about the service you are providing...get the word out that you are 'great'. more clients increase the chances of 'pretty people'. then only show the outside world subjects that fit your brand.
p.2 #16 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Pretty funny/ironic, but in Lisa's "Snow Queen" post, splay commented: "Pretty model. That always helps."
bottom line regarding this straying topic, we all have our different tastes that we pursue in photography. And it's art. If we don't like what someone is doing, ignore it. But I really don't think any of us are in a position to be judgmental here. If we are, then let's start with the bigger picture and tell the Ford Model Agency to start focusing on mediocre looking models with average bodies and maybe a few beer bellies here or there.
If you get anywhere there, then we can focus on changing things here on FM.
p.2 #17 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I admit that I have not read all the comments made in this thread. But I have to agree with Lisa.
Show what you want to shoot. Lisa shows her ideal client on her site - to attract more ideal clients.
That does not mean that you should not photograph a client who does not fit your ideal type. But they are unlikely to be used as advertisement for the business.
p.2 #18 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
friscoron wrote:
Pretty funny/ironic, but in Lisa's "Snow Queen" post, splay commented: "Pretty model. That always helps."
bottom line regarding this straying topic, we all have our different tastes that we pursue in photography. And it's art. If we don't like what someone is doing, ignore it. But I really don't think any of us are in a position to be judgmental here. If we are, then let's start with the bigger picture and tell the Ford Model Agency to start focusing on mediocre looking models with average bodies and maybe a few beer bellies here or there.
If you get anywhere there, then we can focus on changing things here on FM.
I can't believe I opened such a s^%& storm with this question. We went from debating potential business practices, to the ethics of turning away unattractive prospects, to my having a small penis, and someone launching a personal attack on Lisa's family all in the same thread.
That is one hell of a ride...sorry to have turned the key in the ignition.
My only question is, how did they know I had a small penis
p.2 #19 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Read an interesting article about the Abercrombie affair. The author related what Jeffries (CEO) said to what Apple has been doing for years: portraying Apple customers as smart, hip and cool, while portraying PC users as boring corporate drones. Where are the angry blog posts and media outcry from outraged PC users? And the advertising has worked spectacularly for Apple thus far. I thought it was an interesting comparison.
