p.4 #2 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Squirrely Eyed wrote:
Lisa, you're discriminating against people without money. Perhaps I'll sue you to recover enough damages that I can afford your services.
Sadly, in this day and age, it would NOT surprise me.
p.4 #5 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
FIrst off, I'm not a lawyer, but ...
Is it stupid? Maybe. But the OP is setting up a business and one of the things about setting up a business is taking into account any legal problems with a specific model. It's stupid not to look at it from that point of view simply because you disagree with the law. Want to concentrate on how to attract customers,fine but look at it from a legal standpoint as well.
Are we overly-litigious ? Oh yeah. DOes that mean it's going to go away if you think so? Nope.
If I were going into a business where there was even a slightly elevated chance of a lawsuit, I would be sure to cover my ass, which in this case would mean AT LEAST registering as an business entity other than a sole proprietorship, in order to protect the college fund of that daughter of his. Is it worth the effort? Up to him I guess,
Again I'm not a lawyer, just a (slightly cynical) realist.
p.4 #6 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa_Holloway wrote:
I'm not worried about me...I'll photograph anyone who comes to me with money. Now what I put up on my website is an entirely different story...
Do you ever have clients ask why you won't share their photos publicly on your website and/or facebook? As a senior photographer, I post the clients favorite photos from every shoot and my clients are excited to have their shared and consider it part of the experience. Of course I occasionally have a client who doesn't fit society's definition of "beautiful", but I could never justify treating that person differently from my other clients. Maybe your clients have never caught onto that double standard, but what will you say when someone does?
p.4 #7 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I put everyone up on Facebook. Everyone gets a sneak peek. I don't treat any of my clients differently...they are all treated the same way. What goes onto my website galleries though is purely up to my discretion. I only show what I consider to be my best work and work that I want to use to advertise to the public.
p.4 #9 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I feel like having stepped into this thread, I have painted an false image of myself as some big meanie who refuses to shoot 'ugly' err...aesthetically challenged...people. This is absolutely not true. As I've mentioned many times, I shoot anyone who is willing to pay. The fact remains that *most* people who are willing to pay what I charge are people who are happy with how they look. It just is what it is. Someone who is unhappy with their looks/weight/etc are not likely to want to fork over a lot of money to have pictures of themselves. Makes sense, doesn't it? The work I put up on my site is going to be the best of the best, and yes, as sad as some of you may think it is, good looks sell, and that does play into my decision making process on what gets featured on my website and what does not. Similarly, when selecting my senior reps, I base my decision not only on what activities they are in and how involved they are, but also on their looks. Again, good looks sell and this is something I do to put food on the table. I will book more senior sessions off of the cute popular cheerleader acting as a model than I would by using the dumpy, overweight introvert. It just is what it is. That's human nature for you. When I go out to shoot for myself, I usually have a very specific look in mind. There is nothing wrong with that at all.
p.4 #10 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Peter Figen wrote:
"Oh ugggg...don't even let me get into this one. Foot in mouth!"
Are you saying you'd refuse to shoot a same sex wedding?
Actually, I didn't say anything at all. I don't even shoot weddings. I just get sick of hearing stories about people getting their panties in a wad and perpetuating the litigious BS that already runs rampant in our society. "Waahhh...I'm offended! I'll just sue them!" Rather than, say...giving your business to someone else. But hey, maybe that's just me.
p.4 #11 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa_Holloway wrote:
Actually, I didn't say anything at all. I don't even shoot weddings. I just get sick of hearing stories about people getting their panties in a wad and perpetuating the litigious BS that already runs rampant in our society. "Waahhh...I'm offended! I'll just sue them!" Rather than, say...giving your business to someone else. But hey, maybe that's just me.
Bus I don't wear panties....well, at least not normally. Now I'm offended. Has Foot-in-mouth disease reached pandemic status yet?
Back to seriousness, I agree that it is important to consider both legal and civil implications in any business venture. Crap, these days even barter exchanges are getting additional scrutiny similar to cash-based business. You don't need to break a law to pay dearly for it.
Unfortunately there's no "Smokey the Bear" for frivolous lawsuits. "Remember kids, only YOU can prevent yourself from doing something stupid where you will feel inclined to blame somebody else!"
p.4 #12 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa_Holloway wrote:
I feel like having stepped into this thread, I have painted an false image of myself as some big meanie who refuses to shoot 'ugly' err...aesthetically challenged...people. This is absolutely not true.
No, you've been pretty clear that you'll shoot the uggos, the fatties, the dumpy, zit faced walmart losers who don't dress well and take their money, you just won't show them off like you would your "beautiful" clients. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's exactly what you're saying. And earlier in this thread, you did say that you don't post the ugly people on facebook.
I understand only wanting to put your very best images in your portfolio. I think all of us do that. But it doesn't paint you in the best of light to say the things you have posted in this thread. I really hope none of your ugly clients doing an internet search on Lisa Holloway photography find this thread and think, "So that's why she didn't post my pics..." Clearly by charging a high rate, you'll attract customers who love and appreciate photography, even if they're less than perfect 10s.
p.4 #13 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
boy, did this thread take a turn or what? I really don't know what the big deal is. People are simply being honest. I don't post every one of my pictures on my Facebook page, and I'm very discerning about what goes on my gallery.
I hate to say it, but while we're being honest, not every photographer draws the same types of clients. I honestly believe more attractive people, along with less attractive people, are going to be drawn to photographers with a gallery of beautiful people such as what Lisa displays. So we're all on different playing fields, and it's impossible to compare what one photographer does to another.
We can all be a little dubious about Lisa if we want to, but one thing you can't be dubious about is that she has like 10,000-plus followers on her Facebook page. She didn't get there by turning clients away and pissing people off. In fact, she probably got there mainly by posting a lot of beautiful pictures of gorgeous people. And that, ladies and gents, is exactly what she's been saying.
p.4 #14 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
friscoron wrote:
boy, did this thread take a turn or what? I really don't know what the big deal is. People are simply being honest. I don't post every one of my pictures on my Facebook page, and I'm very discerning about what goes on my gallery.
I hate to say it, but while we're being honest, not every photographer draws the same types of clients. I honestly believe more attractive people, along with less attractive people, are going to be drawn to photographers with a gallery of beautiful people such as what Lisa displays. So we're all on different playing fields, and it's impossible to compare what one photographer does to another.
We can all be a little dubious about Lisa if we want to, but one thing you can't be dubious about is that she has like 10,000-plus followers on her Facebook page. She didn't get there by turning clients away and pissing people off. In fact, she probably got there mainly by posting a lot of beautiful pictures of gorgeous people. And that, ladies and gents, is exactly what she's been saying.
p.4 #15 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Well this thread had nowhere to go but down from its initial post.
People are reading too much into what is being said, people are not communicating clearly what they mean...you know...you're having an entirely different conversation in your head and type something else.
no further comments will hopefully let this thread die and live in the archives for the next 10 years.
p.4 #16 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
I was simply giving my input on the topic at hand, which I found to be an interesting topic. I'm sorry if you don't like my take on it. I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking, but don't have the guts to say. And really, what I've said hasn't been bad in any sense of the word. It's just speaking the brutal, honest truth. Don't like it? I couldn't care less. And Ron is right, I somehow wound up with 17K+ 'likers' on Facebook by being a jackass, producing shitty work, and treating my clients like crap.
p.4 #17 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa,
I think you're confusing the issue.
What the OP is saying is...
You (lisa) go to him to take pics of your 8 kids. He is looking at the kids and says..ok Lisa..i like these 4 pretty kids of yours..and not the other 4 cuz they are not pretty...and thats that..i'm not taking their pictures.
IF the OP came to you with his daughter and her friends (pretty ones and non pretty ones) and pays you your sitting fee, you will do:
Take pics of all of them.
Process them the same way (i hope)..you can correct me if i'm wrong.
Give them the pics etc
Post selected ones if not all on your website/portfolio etc (you can correct me here as well.)
Whatever stance you took, you only latched onto that 1 sentence of his paragraph where he said taking pics of pretty people.
In the end you are getting heat for supporting that part...and implying that you only shoot pics of pretty people and you won't take pics of others, which you've stated is not true ...as long as they pay your sitting fee...you will treat everyone will equal dignity.
but it appears, you continue to fight that support that you're being given.
p.4 #19 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
@Sunny, that is the only part I'm arguing right now because I am not coming at this from the same position/perspective he (the OP) is. He sounds like he honestly wants this to be more a hobby/shoot what he wants kind of thing vs a money making business. He has stated that he does not need the money, therefore, I *get* what he's saying. If you don't need the money, pick and choose what/who you want to shoot! When I shoot for myself (aka not in it for the money at this particular time) I darn well am VERY choosy about who I shoot, what they look like, the location I use, the wardrobe, etc etc. This is different than running the business side of things as it is simply an artistic outlet in these instances and I want to (and WILL) regain full artistic control over every aspect of the shoot. I've only chimed in with my opinion on the matter as seen from the perspective of someone who ALSO enjoys photographing beautiful people (honestly, who doesn't??) but *is* trying to run a profitable business model at the same time. People are taking me for a jackass because I posted an un-PC opinion (I prefer shooting pretty people) despite the fact that I've stated, multiple times, that I will shoot anyone who comes to me and pays me for a session and will treat them all with equal dignity.
p.4 #20 · Hope you guys don't think I am a creep...
Lisa_Holloway wrote:
I was simply giving my input on the topic at hand, which I found to be an interesting topic. I'm sorry if you don't like my take on it. I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking, but don't have the guts to say. And really, what I've said hasn't been bad in any sense of the word. It's just speaking the brutal, honest truth. Don't like it? I couldn't care less. And Ron is right, I somehow wound up with 17K+ 'likers' on Facebook by being a jackass, producing shitty work, and treating my clients like crap. ...Show more →
You certainly have a right to your opinion and you clearly do gorgeous work and have lots of clients. No need to start a pissing contest about all of your likes on FB as no one is questioning your talent nor your business. Lisa_Holloway wrote:
People are taking me for a jackass because I posted an un-PC opinion (I prefer shooting pretty people) despite the fact that I've stated, multiple times, that I will shoot anyone who comes to me and pays me for a session and will treat them all with equal dignity.
I'm not taking you for a jackass. I just see a divide between saying you'll take the money from ugly/fat/acne covered/bad dressers but you won't share their photos with your 17K+ fans because it damages your brand. In your first post, you did say you don't post the photos of ugly people on facebook. I simply wondered if your ugly clients felt they were missing out on part of the experience because they were being swept under the rug publicly. I'm sure you gave them excellent images, but I guess I'm always worried about a client's perception. Maybe I care about it more than they do.
Has Foot-in-mouth disease reached pandemic status yet?