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Archive 2013 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark

  
 
carstenw
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p.6 #1 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


douglasf13 wrote:
Agreed, Gordon. Fuji already touts their current X-trans sensor as having the performance of full frame, so I think they've settled on aps-c as being their desired combination of size, IQ and price. The lenses for NEX and Fuji X are already generally large, so we can only imagine what the lens sizes will be like on a a full frame mirrorless. Of course, a fixed lens camera, like the RX1, is an option, but that's another animal.


It is interesting to consider if some of the chunky NEX lenses were already designed as FF lenses... Has anyone tried to measure the size of the projected image from these lenses?



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:17 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #2 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Well put, Carsten. Most cameras out there are capable of fine results. To me, Leica M is about the journey as much as the outcome, but to each his/her own. It's kind of like wanting a motorcycle, even if your compact car does a better job in most statistical categories, or something like that.


Mar 08, 2013 at 06:20 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #3 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


carstenw wrote:
It is interesting to consider if some of the chunky NEX lenses were already designed as FF lenses... Has anyone tried to measure the size of the projected image from these lenses?



Yeah, it's been done quite a few times over the years by various people, although I don't have links handy. They're all aps-c only, as far as I know.



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:22 PM
carstenw
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p.6 #4 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Even the newest lenses, like the Zeiss 24, the 30 (?) and the 50?


Mar 08, 2013 at 06:24 PM
ct8282
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p.6 #5 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Fascinating thread.

I want a Leica M.



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:25 PM
carstenw
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p.6 #6 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Start putting beans in your mattress If you put a Pound a day in your mattress, you will have enough for a Leica M and three great lenses in 41 years.


Mar 08, 2013 at 06:26 PM
ct8282
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p.6 #7 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


He he. I blame the X-E1 which I only got recently. It has opened my eyes to a new form of photography. One that has inspired me and excited me considerably. My Nikons sit untouched in their peli case upstairs. The Nikons seem bland to me at the moment.

I'm itching to have a Leica experience moment but I fear it may lead to drastic actions in order to become a Leica owner.



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:31 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #8 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


carstenw wrote:
Even the newest lenses, like the Zeiss 24, the 30 (?) and the 50?


Yep, definitely the 24 and 50, and not sure about the new 35, but I'd imagine so. The lenses actually vignette quite a bit even on aps-c, if you turn off the in-camera correction. If you put them on the fullframe VG-900, the camera automatically crops to aps-c.

Edited on Mar 08, 2013 at 06:46 PM · View previous versions



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:35 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #9 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


ct8282 wrote:
He he. I blame the X-E1 which I only got recently. It has opened my eyes to a new form of photography. One that has inspired me and excited me considerably. My Nikons sit untouched in their peli case upstairs. The Nikons seem bland to me at the moment.

I'm itching to have a Leica experience moment but I fear it may lead to drastic actions in order to become a Leica owner.


You could buy a used M9 for around $3.5-$4K, and a Voigtlander, ZM or used older Leica lens, to get started, if you can't resist. You could go even cheaper with a used M8, if you can deal with the crop and IR filters.



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:36 PM
ct8282
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p.6 #10 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


If I did it I'd have to go M all the way. I'd probably get the 50mm f1.4 Summilux ASPH or the 35mm summicron f2.

I'd want to keep it as a 1 lens system as this is one of the things I love about my x-e1. It was always going to be just 1 lens (got plenty of Nikon glass when I need it).

It's just fantasies at the moment but if I do try it and love it, I'd consider trading one of my Nikon bodies and some glass for it.

That must confuse a few people based on the discussion in this thread...



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:49 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #11 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


ct8282 wrote:
If I did it I'd have to go M all the way. I'd probably get the 50mm f1.4 Summilux ASPH or the 35mm summicron f2.

I'd want to keep it as a 1 lens system as this is one of the things I love about my x-e1. It was always going to be just 1 lens (got plenty of Nikon glass when I need it).

It's just fantasies at the moment but if I do try it and love it, I'd consider trading one of my Nikon bodies and some glass for it.

That must confuse a few people based on
...Show more

That's exactly what I've done. I bought a used M9 last summer for $4K, and a used 35 Summicron ASPH for about $2250 in near-mint condition, which is still less than a new M 240, total. I sold all of my mirrorless and DSLR gear to help fund it, and I don't regret it one bit.

Edited on Mar 08, 2013 at 06:55 PM · View previous versions



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:52 PM
Mescalamba
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p.6 #12 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


If one doesnt need camera for work, no problem switching to Leica M. Tho I guess certain work is possible with Leica M too.

Leica M isnt for high ISO and for fast moving subjects (even tho I guess its not impossible, just would require a lot of training). And macro is hard (or near impossible I think?).

For everything else, its ok I think.



Mar 08, 2013 at 06:52 PM
Jman13
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p.6 #13 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


carstenw wrote:
First of all, I don't think that Leica touts their systems as the be all and end all in any sense that the other manufacturers don't also. They all market like that, it just goes with the field.


What I was referring to is their reputation, and I do think it's well earned, which is why this recycle baffles me.


While the E-M5 has a fantastic sensor and very good lenses, I don't think that the system as a whole reaches the Leica M system at all, not even close.


If that is what you took from what I've written, then I have either not been very clear, or you misread what I wrote. In no way do I think that the E-M5 or m4/3 is the equal of the Leica and its lens system. No way, no how. All I was saying is that empirically, the sensors appear to be on par (not the cameras, the sensors), which I find baffling in a $5,500 full frame body. There is no comparison in the glass, and the build quality from Leica is on another level. Obviously, you also gain all the full frame goodness as well...I was only drawing a parallel in sensor performance, which, at least according to DxO, is in the E-M5's favor.

It is clear that ultimately I don't agree enough with Leica's current direction and pace of getting there to stay with the system, but I guess I will always consider myself a potential future Leica customer again.

I am in no way trying to 'bash' Leica. I very much admire the company, and I admire their products. I think they're a little too much of a brand premium for my taste, but there's no denying the overall quality of the stuff they produce.

Which is sort of my point. The only thing I'm really baffled by is the rationalization. If any other company had decided to release a new full frame camera with a 4 year old sensor, and one that wasn't even current 4 years ago, and charged $5,500, there would be nothing but complaints. But Leica does it, and the response is: "Yeah, that sounds reasonable." It is NOT about the relative merits of the Leica M series. It certainly isn't for everyone, but I definitely understand the attraction and the reason why people love them. It's about the merits of packaging a 4 year old camera as a new camera and selling it at only a 20% markdown from the brand new machine with new sensor, etc.

If they release a body that fits how I shoot, or if I find myself wanting that full manual style for shooting, I may someday be a Leica M shooter, but if I'm going to pay top dollar for a top grade camera, I'm going to want everything about it to be top grade.




Mar 08, 2013 at 07:34 PM
ryankarr
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p.6 #14 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Jman13 wrote:
Which is sort of my point. The only thing I'm really baffled by is the rationalization. If any other company had decided to release a new full frame camera with a 4 year old sensor, and one that wasn't even current 4 years ago, and charged $5,500, there would be nothing but complaints. But Leica does it, and the response is: "Yeah, that sounds reasonable." It is NOT about the relative merits of the Leica M series. It certainly isn't for everyone, but I definitely understand the attraction and the reason why people love them. It's about the merits of
...Show more

You're forgetting that $5500 is $1500 less than what the almost identical M9 sold for previously.

Basically it's a "Hey, here's a cheaper version of the last gen camera for those that don't need the fancy stuff".



Mar 08, 2013 at 07:40 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #15 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Jman13 wrote:
Which is sort of my point. The only thing I'm really baffled by is the rationalization. If any other company had decided to release a new full frame camera with a 4 year old sensor, and one that wasn't even current 4 years ago, and charged $5,500, there would be nothing but complaints. But Leica does it, and the response is: "Yeah, that sounds reasonable." It is NOT about the relative merits of the Leica M series. It certainly isn't for everyone, but I definitely understand the attraction and the reason why people love them. It's about the merits of
...Show more

Every MFDB is still based on CCD technology that, like the M9's, hasn't progressed at the rate of CMOS. Interestingly, despite what the technical numbers say, there are those who don't want to trade in their CCD M for the new CMOS-based M, and there are also those who prefer the base ISO output of the M9 to their current FF Canons and Nikons, so it isn't exactly cut and dry.



Mar 08, 2013 at 07:41 PM
Jman13
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p.6 #16 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


You're forgetting that $5500 is $1500 less than what the almost identical M9 sold for previously.

I guess I'd feel less like Leica was trying to pull a fast one (which is what it feels like to me) if they just said "We're going to keep the M9 in the lineup, and reduce the cost to X." Though I think when you have a 4 year old body being replaced, $4500 would be more appropriate, but that's just opinion.



Mar 08, 2013 at 07:56 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #17 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


FWIW, the original M9 is only 3 years older than the M-E, and because the M-E was more widely available from the time of announcement, it was in people's hands more like 2.5 years after most were able to get an M9.


Mar 08, 2013 at 07:58 PM
sebboh
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p.6 #18 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Jman13 wrote:
I guess I'd feel less like Leica was trying to pull a fast one (which is what it feels like to me) if they just said "We're going to keep the M9 in the lineup, and reduce the cost to X." Though I think when you have a 4 year old body being replaced, $4500 would be more appropriate, but that's just opinion.


that's what nikon did with the d300s. it's pretty common when something new comes along and doesn't quite fit in the same nitch that the old model will be kept around at a discounted price. it's not like leica is saying the M-E is better than the m9. they're just saying, we know there are some purists and people who can't afford the m-240 who'd prefer a reduced price m9.



Mar 08, 2013 at 08:05 PM
ryankarr
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p.6 #19 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


Jman13 wrote:
I guess I'd feel less like Leica was trying to pull a fast one (which is what it feels like to me) if they just said "We're going to keep the M9 in the lineup, and reduce the cost to X." Though I think when you have a 4 year old body being replaced, $4500 would be more appropriate, but that's just opinion.


They've been pretty open that it's a re-packaged M9. They also removed the frame select lever which they say helped reduce manufacturing costs.

Back to costs, you're assuming its worthwhile for them to sell M-E's for $4500. With their margins, why would you sell a no-profit version of a camera that will arguably take sales away from your flagship?



Mar 08, 2013 at 09:45 PM
rscheffler
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p.6 #20 · Doesn't look too good according to DxoMark


ryankarr wrote:
Back to costs, you're assuming its worthwhile for them to sell M-E's for $4500. With their margins, why would you sell a no-profit version of a camera that will arguably take sales away from your flagship?


I agree Ryan. I'm sure they could sell it for less than $4500, but why do that and undermine the value of the brand and take sales away from the new M? If the M-E is within 20% of the M, it's positioned where a fair number will consider it close enough and go for the new camera with the refined feature set. A low M-E price would undermine used M9 resale prices more, making it just that much more difficult for existing M9 users to get enough value for their cameras in order to upgrade to the M. As it is, the M-E already undermined used M9s somewhat, but maybe only accelerated the inevitable price drop by 6 months or so.

There's really no need for Leica to drop the prices because the used M market is quite active and used M9s will be in the low $3000s price point relatively soon, making for a good entry point into the system.



Mar 08, 2013 at 10:56 PM
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