p.4 #1 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
Hi Yohan,
I assume you have LR 4.1, right? In the "Tone" section, I adjusted the "Shadow" to +50, which is about half of the total and the "Whites" and "Highlights" sliders were set to -70. Frankly, for my taste, I felt that it was a tad too much. I kind of like the shadow areas to be a tad darker than what I displayed there but I wanted to make my point. All 3 of the presence sliders were set at 0. After adjusted, I viewed/enlarged the shadow parts to evaluate the noise level but since I am talking about blades of grass and soil, it was difficult to discern. So, I refrain from saying about anything there.
I can send you the full size RAW file to you for you to play with. It is almost 30MB though. PM me your email address and I will give it a shot. But I got to go right now, I should be able to do that in the PM later on.
p.4 #2 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
bbasiaga wrote:
That's not the point. The point is Nikon can push shadows really hard. And since all the cool kids are doing it, you want to do it too.
lol!
-Brian
"All the other kids with their pumped up blacks, better run better run, faster than my Canon!"
p.4 #3 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
Reading some of the posts here, I get the impression that there haven't been any truly great Landscape photos for the last half decade. How do Landscape shooters survive all these years with only filters and HDR technique?
Speaking of HDR... I find it amusing how some people value the ability to push shadow so highly and yet HDR shooting and tone mapping technique doesn't get much love at all simply because of the cliched over saturated output.
p.4 #4 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
thw2 wrote:
However, it's not impossible that a lower end camera has a slightly better sensor than one from a higher end. Nikon used to do this back in the D1-D2 days. Besides, only a small fraction of users really care about shadow recovery... and the performance difference between the 1Dx and 6D is astronomical.
I don't think so, it's too close to the release. Canon, being Canon, would add just a little noise in software to offset and keep from product/price cannibalization. "Just a little bit, not so much that anyone notices", the boss would tell the programmer.
Also pulling shadows out of jpeg can give artificially results (versus raw) since jpeg works by destroying information the eye cannot normally see. Artificial, because in reality, detail is lost along with noise.
p.4 #6 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
n0b0 wrote: Reading some of the posts here, I get the impression that there haven't been any truly great Landscape photos for the last half decade. How do Landscape shooters survive all these years with only filters and HDR technique?
Speaking of HDR... I find it amusing how some people value the ability to push shadow so highly and yet HDR shooting and tone mapping technique doesn't get much love at all simply because of the cliched over saturated output.
p.4 #7 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
Rickuz wrote:
Emotional investment can be a biatch.
I think you are emotionally invested in running down as low as you can a camera you never intended to buy and one never intended to be marketed by such a skilled well equipped photographer as yourself. You've posted dozens of posts on the 6D, all negative.
p.4 #9 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
n0b0 wrote: Reading some of the posts here, I get the impression that there haven't been any truly great Landscape photos for the last half decade. How do Landscape shooters survive all these years with only filters and HDR technique?
Speaking of HDR... I find it amusing how some people value the ability to push shadow so highly and yet HDR shooting and tone mapping technique doesn't get much love at all simply because of the cliched over saturated output.
Why do people get pumped up so much about the AF on the 5D3. I get the impression that there haven't been any greate in focus photos taken with the 5D2.
n0b0...it is called progress. Sure I can take multiple images and play around on my computer for hours, or I can take one image with an expanded dynamic range and be done. Which would you rather have?
p.4 #10 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
Dont understand why people get so passionate, and then nasty about this topic.
the DR is not just great in high contrast images, but also in other situation where different areas of the picture have very different exposure levels (the tunnel view of Valley is a very good common example, during many hours of the day). Here, the extra DR can be used very much like one would use a gnd. use the lightroom slider on exposure set to +3, and may be a slight boost in shadows. I would love to be able to do that instead of using a filter. its more convinient, and in many days more powerful. bracketing becomes a paint when you are shooting panoramas, b/c of number of shots, and if there are moving objects, it may not work as well. It is also more time consuming than adjustments to a single exposure. How often do I need the extra DR of Exmor over my 5d3? about 25-30% of my landscape shots.
p.4 #11 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
kevindar wrote:
yeah, no. its not possible. 1dx was just released, and canon will not put a sensor in 6d which will out perform its 7K camera (not to mention 5d3). unless they are using a sony sensor, which is highly unlikely.
What you and so many others fail to realise is that.... ***SO many people do not care in the slightest that shadows can't be pushed more than a stop or two***.
So I don't think many (percentage wise of installed user base) 5d3 or 1dx users would a) notice and b) care.
This site and other forums are a very small percentage of users. I know you're all hung up on this but realise that most of the rest of the world ... just ... aren't. They are happy with shadows being dark.
p.4 #12 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
What you and so many others fail to realise is that.... ***SO many people do not care in the slightest that shadows can't be pushed***.
So I don't think many (percentage wise of installed user base) 5d3 or 1dx users could a) notice and b) care.
This site and other forums are a very small percentage of users.
I agree somewhat with this but. I would not underestimate how much Camera review and discussion sites like this one, dpreview, kenrockell, robgalbraith (a while back) and even DXOmark influence dslr sales and maybe even development. It was after all rob galbraith, through his report that the 1D3 Ai focusing fiasco gained a lot of momentum and Canon did react to that.
A LOT of people do research online before making a DSLR purchase. It is after all a significant investment to most. Its not something exclusive to the photography industry. Happens with cars, computers and even washing machines.
The fact is Nikon and its industry leading sensors (sony) have gained a LOT of momentum and buzz as of late. That solely cant be attributed to Nikon's own marketing efforts.
And how far one can bring up the shadows matters a lot to quite a few folks in the Video industry. In fact, RED Camera has made ground breaking advances in that regard and its one of the reasons they are a success. Dynamic range is one of the most important image quality aspects of a digital camera and one aspect that has made digital surpass film in a huge segment of the motion picture industry. That is fact. In the photography industry it might be more so.
p.4 #13 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
What you and so many others fail to realise is that.... ***SO many people do not care in the slightest that shadows can't be pushed more than a stop or two***.
So I don't think many (percentage wise of installed user base) 5d3 or 1dx users would a) notice and b) care.
This site and other forums are a very small percentage of users. I know you're all hung up on this but realise that most of the rest of the world ... just ... aren't. They are happy with shadows being dark.
Phil, not having taken a representative poll of people who own d800 or 5d3, I have no way of agreeing with or refuting your assertion here. I have a strong suspicion that you have no way of backing up your assertion. Ultimately, it is interesting to see how Nikon has done with its share in various segments of the market in DSLR, and how the d800 sales are comparing to 5d3 sales, as compared to say 5d2 sales vs d700 and d3 sales. Given that the single and sole advantage of d800 is its sensor (in fact the autofocus of 5d3 is superior, which is very important, as is its fps), I think If d800 does well, its a pretty good indication that people care about its sensor.
p.4 #14 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
What you and so many others fail to realise is that.... ***SO many people do not care in the slightest that shadows can't be pushed more than a stop or two***.
So I don't think many (percentage wise of installed user base) 5d3 or 1dx users would a) notice and b) care.
This site and other forums are a very small percentage of users. I know you're all hung up on this but realise that most of the rest of the world ... just ... aren't. They are happy with shadows being dark.
And how do you know this Phil? I think everyone would welcome a Canon sensor that allows us to obtain 2 more stops of usable dynamic range...would you not?
p.4 #15 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
I think I speak for most people on the planet when I say that anyone who does any PP whether it's shadows/highlights, HDR, color balance etc after shooting or who uses a GND or shadow manipulation (or heaven forbid exposes to the right ) is simply a lousy photographer.
p.4 #16 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
kevindar wrote:
Phil, not having taken a representative poll of people who own d800 or 5d3, I have no way of agreeing with or refuting your assertion here. I have a strong suspicion that you have no way of backing up your assertion. Ultimately, it is interesting to see how Nikon has done with its share in various segments of the market in DSLR, and how the d800 sales are comparing to 5d3 sales, as compared to say 5d2 sales vs d700 and d3 sales. Given that the single and sole advantage of d800 is its sensor (in fact the autofocus of 5d3 is superior, which is very important, as is its fps), I think If d800 does well, its a pretty good indication that people care about its sensor. ...Show more →
Are you honestly, seriously, suggesting that in one generation of photography, a significant proportion of photographers *suddenly* decided to push deep shadows more than 1-2 stops? I don't see it in the photography that I see around the place.
I'm not trying to be hard on your view that DR matters - to you it may - just injecting a bit of realism that it matters to everyone. Most people take photos and do very little to those photos that would require a sensor capable of pushing shadows so far. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of photographers these days don't even print their images! 900x600 is the best most of them see, and the occasional crop to show what the sensor is capable of.
The D800 sensor outstrips most photographers needs by a large amount. Just look at the photography being produced. I would also say that MP is more important to the average user - at least that's why people tell me they bought the d800 on the whole.
What Nikon have done well is market their camera. What Canon have done badly is market their camera. I said it in another thread, but 5d2 users were generally into MP / sensor performance - that's what they bought it for. The 5d3 is NOT the replacement for the 5d2, but a mini-1-series. That's a marketing error.
p.4 #17 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
chez wrote:
And how do you know this Phil? I think everyone would welcome a Canon sensor that allows us to obtain 2 more stops of usable dynamic range...would you not?
I don't care either way. When it comes I'll take it. I wouldn't upgrade for it. I don't want something just because I can have it - I get it because I need it.
But look at your statement "I think everyone would welcome a Canon sensor that allows us to obtain 2 more stops of usable dynamic range". Consider the use of the word "everyone".
I think this is the point I'm trying to get across - you guys think that FM and CR and so on are the world of photography, but they really aren't. In this forum I see the same 100-200 people. That's a very very very small number. The same is true of the other forums. People do read reviews, but to suggest that they're all gearheads who aren't buying the 5d3 because of poor low ISO shadow quality is far fetched. I would say MP is more likely to be the issue.
I really really wish Canon had released the 5d3 as a new camera, like a 2d, and released a 30+ MP 5d3. Then we wouldn't have had this issue I don't believe... (as I said elsewhere)
You guys really care about it and spend so much energy on it that it's hard to see that many others just don't care
p.4 #18 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
I don't care either way. When it comes I'll take it. I wouldn't upgrade for it. I don't want something just because I can have it - I get it because I need it.
But look at your statement "I think everyone would welcome a Canon sensor that allows us to obtain 2 more stops of usable dynamic range". Consider the use of the word "everyone".
I think this is the point I'm trying to get across - you guys think that FM and CR and so on are the world of photography, but they really aren't. In this forum I see the same 100-200 people. That's a very very very small number. The same is true of the other forums. People do read reviews, but to suggest that they're all gearheads who aren't buying the 5d3 because of poor low ISO shadow quality is far fetched. I would say MP is more likely to be the issue.
I really really wish Canon had released the 5d3 as a new camera, like a 2d, and released a 30+ MP 5d3. Then we wouldn't have had this issue I don't believe... (as I said elsewhere)
You guys really care about it and spend so much energy on it that it's hard to see that many others just don't care ...Show more →
And for someone who doesn't care about it...you seem to spend just as much time and energy fighting it. Now what is wrong with this picture?
p.4 #19 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
You guys do realize that Canon has a sensor on the C100 at $6,500 that has a base ISO of 850, and a true 12 stops DR all of eth way up to 20,000?
Because it is limited by it's 8 bit output, it uses 54 dB, although the sensor itself has 73 dB.
Canon does have new sensors that are amazing at high ISO, and that have improved DR. Obviously they use them first in the C300/C500/C100, cameras from $15K up.
But that is also very likely to "trickle down" into their next sensor fabs. And teh 5DIII is fixed at a point in time snapsjot of whjat their sensors were capable of.
There are 2 White Papers on the Canon Digital Learning site, on teh sensors and on Canon Log Gamma (with the transform of teh data from teh sensor) that are worth looking at by someone who knows sensor engineering better than me!
p.4 #20 · I think Canon solved the shadow recovery issue in their sensors with the 6D sensor!
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
I think this is the point I'm trying to get across - you guys think that FM and CR and so on are the world of photography, but they really aren't. In this forum I see the same 100-200 people. That's a very very very small number. The same is true of the other forums. People do read reviews, but to suggest that they're all gearheads who aren't buying the 5d3 because of poor low ISO shadow quality is far fetched. I would say MP is more likely to be the issue.
Yeah this. I'm in local photography clubs that can gather 50+ people at a meet and 90% of what's on our mind is where/what/when/how to photograph next, or just usual chit-chat. If anyone even mentions reviews, brands, or what-not, it's often in a jesting manner, joking around or making light of it all before quickly moving on. About the most technical we get is talking about lenses or postprocessing technique. Most photographers I know chose brand based on what they liked at the time, what their friends were using, how it feels 'in your hand', and so on.
To me, this is one of the better forum sites out there, but still seems distanced from the real world in the seriousness with which people discuss gear or their pet statistic.
