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Archive 2012 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread

  
 
joakim
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p.23 #1 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


rscheffler wrote:
Thanks for posting this Edward! Lots of nice tidbits in it. I think the automatic actuation of focus peaking in live view when the camera detects rangefinder cam movement is a slick implementation!


Yes, very interesting read indeed. The M is sounding more and more tempting



Sep 19, 2012 at 01:59 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.23 #2 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


freaklikeme wrote:
Whatever the case, if Sony decides to make a still-shooter oriented FF NEX, something tells me their main focus isn't going to be making sure it plays well with RF lenses.


Agreed. They will tune it for their lenses. But which lenses? Adapted Alpha mount? New E mount designed for full frame?

Ricoh may try, but that doesn't seem likely to me, since it would be an expensive proposition for a company that does not, to my knowledge, currently produce any M-mount lenses.

Maybe the technical challenge isn't as steep or as expensive as we tend to assume around here. Ricoh is after all the only other (current, I'm ignoring Epson) camera maker on the planet that has produced a digital camera specifically designed for the M mount, and the Mount A12 delivers spectacular results, even more so when considering how inexpensive it is ($649 USD plus a very cheap "body").

Not only did they produce a mount/sensor package that delivers, but they implemented focus peaking and in-camera vignette / shading correction. Turns out the package does so well on most lenses that few, it seems, find the need to use the in-camera correction. Sure, the unit benefits from being an APS-C crop - but at least that technology, like on the M9, is already present for future full frame models.

Ricoh therefore has the experience and has a lot of the technology needed for a full frame M camera already built, tested, and in the field. Is scaling the Mount A12 up to a Mount F18 or F24 (Full frame 18/24MP) that much more of a challenge?

Revisiting your comment about lenses, developing a Mount without having to also produce a line of full frame lenses means Ricoh can nip in and take market share away from Leica, and Sony and others, without having to design, produce, and stock a single lens. This could be an advantage if there is a large enough potential market for a full frame Mount unit.

My guess is that, even if we do see another FF mirrorless wonder, the M will be the camera of choice for good performance with RF lenses.

Despite the forgoing and how much sense, to me, the idea of Ricoh being the company best positioned to be a player in the digital M camera market, the pessimist in me believes that unless Ricoh is working on this now, and is willing to talk about it soon, such a development doesn't exist and likely never will.

As such I'd agree - Sony and other platforms upon which RF lenses are used will do what they do for their own mounts without considering the needs of RF glass users one bit. NEX got a boost from alt-glass users but can today probably live on without our support, especially now the E mount lens selection is firming up for the better. NEX probably was never designed with RF glass in mind anyway, it was just a happy accident that many alt-glass users could achieve good to great results on NEX depending on lens.



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:07 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.23 #3 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


I think I read in the digital pamphlet from CMOSIS that the sensor had 78dB dynamic range - where did those extra dB come from? I think it also said that the sensor can handle up to 5 fps.

I think the new M camera will be quite a knock out. If it delivers, which I think it will.

I don't think any other player will release a full frame M mount any time soon either.

Though I am quite disappointed that Ricoh did not release a single new product at Photokina I am not too worried actually. They usually don't release new stuff at Photokina at all and are always tight lipped. The waiting game is taking it's toll in the Ricoh camp, and though I can wait I think the hush hush policy is not helping them.

Also, and more importantly in regards to this thread I don't think they would release a full frame M sensor as their next big thing. If they did, it would be priced favourably I am sure. And I know I'd buy it instantly. The M typ 240 is priced way out of my range.

Integrating M and R series lenses in a way that actually seems to work alright and having an Optical RF for M as well as LV and EVF is brilliant. They have created a camera that will allow M glass together with macro R glass and though I am not sure how practical telephoto lenses will be on the M - but at least there is an option.

EDIT:
Michael: I haven't given up on Ricoh just yet. It is easy to sit and consider the "all quiet on the Ricoh front" as their demise in progress, especially given the turmoil and avalaunch of new products from other makers this year.

I think that they are still working on something. All that Pentax jazz means that they have some more R&D tools and research teams plus Pentax innovations that might make them pause and see whether anything can be implemented from all that into their own products and vice versa. Imagine being able to step into the competitions R&D as a new owner and be able to rummage around research and patents. That would take a little while.

The thing that Ricoh seems to have is heart, and a small dedicated R&D core which seem to be happy being a small player and working at their own pace. I don't think they'll just keel over just yet. I hope they'd at least go out with a BANG.




Sep 19, 2012 at 02:08 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.23 #4 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


edwardkaraa wrote:
But who do you think would do it? I had in mind 3 major players, Sony, Fuji and Ricoh. I was almost sure Sony would do it first, but they introduced the RX1 instead, so this pushes the FF IL body at least a year IMHO. And now the new line from Zeiss makes me doubt it a bit more. Zeiss must have obtained the cooperation of Sony and Fuji to get all the AF and electronics right. If there was any FF body in the near future, do you think Zeiss would have designed APS-C only lenses? I am
...Show more

I still think one will come from Sony - and possibly Ricoh- but who knows. Something might show up from an unexpected player. The fact that the RX1 exists makes me believe that even more. The Sony 24MP FF sensor is probably just too much for someone to resist building a mirrorless FF system incorporating it. I expect that sensor will be so widely used (how many cameras already use it? A99, RX1, Nikon D600) that it's price will be relatively low for a FF sensor. I also suspect that other players are now seeing a larger possible market for M based lenses given relatively recent technology advances with mirrorless and will not let Leica have all the pie!



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:15 PM
douglasf13
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p.23 #5 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


If Sony does a FF EVIL, I think they'll either come out with a new third mount, or use e-mount and expect a-mount lens adaptation. Either way, I'm not feeling good about the possibility of great M lens performance.


Sep 19, 2012 at 02:20 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.23 #6 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Agreed with Michael and Henrik, Ricoh should be the one who can make the FF M mount body or module. But I also share the pessimism, especially that their Pentax move wasn't the smartest one IMHO. If they make one, it won't have a RF, it won't be as sexy as the typ 240, in fact it's going to be as ugly as the GXR But it will be cheap and it will work perfectly. But I'm not holding my breath, and now after having seen the sexy typ 240, even if Ricoh makes ones, I'm not sure I would want to buy it.


Sep 19, 2012 at 02:20 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.23 #7 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Tariq, I agree with Douglas, and Brad's wisdom a few posts earlier

Even if Sony makes a FF mirrorless, how good will it work with our RF lenses? That is the question. Now if Sony makes a new FF E line lenses, I'm sure it would be interesting for many, but not me. I love my ZM lenses too much



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:26 PM
aleksanderpolo
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p.23 #8 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Anyone remember when they announced/showed the M module, was it some time two years ago or at photokina?


Sep 19, 2012 at 02:29 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.23 #9 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


aleksanderpolo wrote:
Anyone remember when they announced/showed the M module, was it some time two years ago or at photokina?


It was announced just about a year ago.



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:32 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.23 #10 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Henrik, your optimism about Ricoh is inspiring. I'll try to keep that in mind as I decide how patient I'd like to be, not that I have any alternatives other than platform (including lenses) change as I'm not a Leica M prospect.

edwardkaraa wrote:
If they [Ricoh] make one, it won't have a RF, it won't be as sexy as the typ 240, in fact it's going to be as ugly as the GXR But it will be cheap and it will work perfectly.


I'd be perfectly happy to buy a no-rangefinder, inexpensive, ugly, full frame compact M lens dedicated camera from Ricoh.

As we've long discussed elsewhere, a new body removing shot to shot buffer and a few other limitations would also be warmly received, whether it is in a pretty package or not.

Going one step further, maybe Ricoh could lever off the GXR / Mount A12 experience and develop a built-in EVF live view, dedicated all-in one M mount camera (not modular like the GXR). That would, it seems, remove objections from the path of would-be buyers that simply can't wrap their brains around the modular concept of the GXR.

Bet they'd sell loads.

(And they could even redesign the body for a little more je ne sais quoi...)



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:33 PM
rscheffler
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p.23 #11 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


A few points of interest to me pulled from Overgaard's interview with Stefan Daniel:

M:
Rangefinder is from M9 but improved accuracy. Otherwise everything else is newly designed.
No mechanical linkage between external buttons, i.e. shutter speed dial, shutter release.

ME:
No technical change from the M9, i.e., the shutter, buffer, processor, etc. are all the same.

R:
Probably not new R lenses, but possibly M mount lenses that in the past would have been unfeasible for rangefinder use.

Regarding FF EVIL from another brand... It would seem there is a huge market gap between the enthusiast FF DSLR market price point of $2000-3000 and the M at $7000 for someone to fill. The problem with most of the brands is they want to create an entire ecosystem in which the lenses are the profit drivers. I agree it would be someone like Ricoh who could come in and be content to make their money simply from providing a FF platform and not also have to create a new lens system... but their marriage to Pentax clouds that purity of approach. If Ricoh does offer something, it will likely be complicated by the need to include K mount support. Hopefully it would only mean a mount adapter.



Sep 19, 2012 at 02:40 PM
aleksanderpolo
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p.23 #12 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


O, I found out that they first showed a mock up at CP+ in 2010, and then the final version in CP+ 2011, didn't show it in Photokina. So, there is still hope...

Ya, the M is pretty and all that, but is way out of my price range. So I don't mind a ugly duckling from Ricoh (just don't be K-01 ugly).

edwardkaraa wrote:
It was announced just about a year ago.




Sep 19, 2012 at 02:46 PM
uhoh7
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p.23 #13 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


douglasf13 wrote:
If Sony does a FF EVIL, I think they'll either come out with a new third mount, or use e-mount and expect a-mount lens adaptation. Either way, I'm not feeling good about the possibility of great M lens performance.


Well you may be right, but if the m shoots well with R glass, then it won't be for technical reasons.



Sep 19, 2012 at 04:06 PM
freaklikeme
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p.23 #14 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


michaelwatkins wrote:
Agreed. They will tune it for their lenses. But which lenses? Adapted Alpha mount? New E mount designed for full frame?


My guess would be A. I don't see them creating a third mount or designing e-mounts for FF. But I was off on my guess with Leica. I could be just as wrong here.

michaelwatkins wrote:


Like most everyone else on here, I would like to see Ricoh do it, so I'm definitely not counting them out. I just believe it would be difficult to make that choice when it's a camera that will support other companies' lenses.

What I'd really like to see is a Ricoh/Leica partnership with Ricoh handling the low-end, entry level bodies and Leica taking on the flagship. Mix in a return of the Pentax Limited lenses they produced in LTM but with M-mounts and I think the company could see a healthy rise in sales.



Sep 19, 2012 at 04:45 PM
sector99
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p.23 #15 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Maybe this is what we're seeing in the early M samples? A wide dynamic range will result in somewhat lower out of camera impact, or punch. Thinking about this a bit... sounds kind of similar to the MM's straight out of camera rendering... Just means one needs a more aggressive PP preset in LR, etc.

BTW, according to Thorsten Overgaard, in his long rambling M9 review - Leica intentionally tuned the M8/9 to resemble Kodachrome.


"Punch" can still be present in a wide dynamic range capture. It's only a matter of delivering a true black and textured white with no blank dark tones or blown highlights.

I'm sure in camera curves will offer attractive outputs.

The point here is the sensor has the POTENTIAL to overcome a huge drawback of digital detectors––poor dynamic range.

"Street Shooting" should really benefit here. No more totally blank shadows...and yet clear highlights. Black to white––just like the human eye sees things.



Sep 19, 2012 at 05:22 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.23 #16 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


edwardkaraa wrote:
Tariq, I agree with Douglas, and Brad's wisdom a few posts earlier

Even if Sony makes a FF mirrorless, how good will it work with our RF lenses? That is the question. Now if Sony makes a new FF E line lenses, I'm sure it would be interesting for many, but not me. I love my ZM lenses too much


Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to be optimistic. Wouldn't it be wild if Sony reached into it's Konica Minolta file cabinet and updated the Hexar RF!
http://news.mapcamera.com/media/3/3000000241981_1.jpg



Sep 19, 2012 at 05:25 PM
douglasf13
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p.23 #17 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to be optimistic. Wouldn't it be wild if Sony reached into it's Konica Minolta file cabinet and updated the Hexar RF!
http://news.mapcamera.com/media/3/3000000241981_1.jpg


Man, that would be the dream. That or an Ikon...or even a Bessa. I'd love to shoot a digital rangefinder that has high ISO that is at least somewhat competitive, but spending the money on the new M is still too much for me to legitimize. MAYBE a used M9. We'll see.



Sep 19, 2012 at 05:41 PM
corposant
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p.23 #18 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to be optimistic. Wouldn't it be wild if Sony reached into it's Konica Minolta file cabinet and updated the Hexar RF!
http://news.mapcamera.com/media/3/3000000241981_1.jpg


I have one of those you can buy right now!



Sep 19, 2012 at 05:59 PM
ricardovaste
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p.23 #19 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


douglasf13 wrote:
+2.


Indeed... Why would it really be in the interest of some other manufacturer to accommodate performance for non native lenses? They'll be focusing on making their own FF lenses work well for their mirrorless setup. I doubt they'll care what M lenses do... Whoever "they" are, we don't yet know of course. Unless its a digital Ikon of course.

Do we have any judgement on the evf yet? Again probably jumping the gun, but slightly disappointed its just carried over from another system (which afaik don't make the best evf in the market) rather than built from the ground up.



Sep 19, 2012 at 06:27 PM
DoubleNegative
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p.23 #20 · Leica M10/ME discussion thread


snowboarder wrote:
I don't claim I know something, we'll see soon. But that link isn't really worth linking


Guess you were wrong, eh?



Sep 19, 2012 at 08:37 PM
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