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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

  
 
philip_pj
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p.52 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Depending on how much leverage Sony get from the dedicated Zeiss lens, if it's a significant gain they may consider 2-3 such cameras for the popular focal length ranges, say a 21mm and a 75mm, to come next. If CZ can embark on a new design for a compact 35/2, why not for other FLs?

In production terms, all the tooling is done. So it would just be off to talk to CZ about new dedicated lenses, and one imagines the production pipeline to be quite short.

The other piece is this: as noted earlier, what is to stop Sony from simply dropping in a higher Mp sensor made to the same specs as the RX1 fitting? Imagine a 36-44Mp sensor...Zeiss are very keen on 'future proofing' against higher Mp cameras at present, so their recent lenses are for sure up to it.

So you would start with a 35mm but even with cropping (RF style VF lines and a Mp count could be reported in the EVF) this would deliver a great 43mm (true normal) and a still excellent 52mm FL in output. A 21mm would give up to a 32mm with excellent IQ, the 75mm up to 112mm at the same quality level, this is an APS-C crop level. The conversion factor is 2.24 going up and 0.44 going down. So a 36Mp FF is a very acceptable 16Mp on APS-C, and a 44Mp FF would be a 19.3Mp for APS-C.
With IQ improvements in sensor tech coming along independent of resolution (esp. toppings, CFAs, AA filters), of course. And, longer FLs give more subject magnification so less IQ is needed.

Users could decide to 'get by' with more cropping if they wish to produce small prints or for other less demanding output needs. I already do not carry a 28mm because the 21mm CY is that good that a crop of the A900 24Mp is still excellent when needed, file size is still quite large, a moderate compromise.

A lot of makers are having trouble making a small high IQ zoom of wide enough range / fast enough apertures to satisfy the market, so we will never again see the great slow 35-70mm zooms, such as CY, Leica R and Nikon made - even on DSLR. And this is FF, so it's much harder to do for that reason alone, due to coverage needs. So I believe it's out for a 'compact' camera like the RX1, and in any case zoom IQ is very higly correlated with FL range.

In my dreams, I could carry (for landscape/travel) work in my dotage, two such cameras of high Mp quality weighing under a kilogram together, a small tripod and a cable release plus a few tiny filters, light hoods and spare batteries, and a NEXTO. No sensor dust, tiny bulk, AF/MF, video, OSS, very versatile for street etc..estimated weight savings from a DSLR, 3-4 lenses etc. of 3kgs plus, in a tiny bag, no lens changes, quiet shutter, OSS, no sensor cleans, no rocket blower or arctic butterfly, carry everywhere for anti-theft, tiny CF pod, swap cameras in 2 seconds, ready for action. They could do this in two years easy.

I agree the price is about the cost of the EVF too much at present, but all release prices are in effect kite flying, and a built in EVF will surely be in big demand in a future small redesign if it goes well enough as it is now.



Sep 24, 2012 at 06:54 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.52 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


I don't think I would buy a set of 3 $2800 fixed lens cameras. That's $8400.

I would rather buy an M for $6000, buy a $2400 lens. Then I'll add a few lenses as funds become available. After five years, I'll sell the M for $3000-4000 then get the next M and keep my lenses. I'll also keep a NEX as a backup body and secondary FL to my lenses.

The big question is how well will the Sony Zeiss FX bodies keep their value after five years and so how expensive will it be to upgrade.

The big advantage I see of the fixed lens to body combo is less chance for dust. However, if dust DOES get in, and it probably will, you're screwed, you can't clean it. You'll have to send it in.

I was able to get dust into my RX100 (although it's a zoom) and also saw dust spots in my X100.



Sep 24, 2012 at 07:12 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.52 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


One of the Sony senior guys specifically mentioned the dust advantage of this design, but whether that's just market-ecture sales speak or not is currently unknown. You would hope that a high end design like this wool factor dust into the design.
(See Mike Wier interview)



Sep 24, 2012 at 07:27 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


FlyPenFly wrote:
I don't think I would buy a set of 3 $2800 fixed lens cameras. That's $8400.

I would rather buy an M for $6000, buy a $2400 lens. Then I'll add a few lenses as funds become available. After five years, I'll sell the M for $3000-4000 then get the next M and keep my lenses. I'll also keep a NEX as a backup body and secondary FL to my lenses.

The big question is how well will the Sony Zeiss FX bodies keep their value after five years and so how expensive will it be to upgrade.


Sounds sensible. I also think doing so (going with the M) would be a day and night difference in user experience, greatly favoring the M. With IQ where it is with current cameras, I think user experience - which perhaps was sacrificed a little for ultimate IQ previously - will again take precedence for more and more users.





Sep 24, 2012 at 07:38 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.52 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Depends, if one needs autofocus, M9 and M are out. If one needs some on the fly macro,M9 is out. Likewise if a more sensitive modern higher resolution sensor is preferred, M9 is out although the M fits nicely.

Can't lump all needs into one bucket.



Sep 24, 2012 at 07:51 PM
sebboh
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p.52 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Sounds sensible. I also think doing so (going with the M) would be a day and night difference in user experience, greatly favoring the M.


depends, i'm sure the liveview implementation of the rx1 will be miles ahead of that of the M. for situations were liveview is prefered (or AF) i'm positive the user experience of the rx1 will be noticeably superior to the M.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
With IQ where it is with current cameras, I think user experience - which perhaps was sacrificed a little for ultimate IQ previously - will again take precedence for more and more users.


i hope your right, it seems as though most camera makers have forgotten what ergonomics are.



Sep 24, 2012 at 08:04 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


AF- yes, it all depends on requirements. Don't know about the LV on the M yet but clearly the OVF when used for MF is gong to be a dramatically better experience on the M vs the Rx1. The size of the M will also almost certainly make it a more ergonomic shooting experience as well. I just see these two - RX1 and M - being so dramatically on opposite ends of the ergonomic user spectrum to the point it's almost folly to compare the RX1 to a Leica M (particularly since the M seems like it can be used - except for AF- to behave like the RX1 but the opposite will never be true).


Sep 24, 2012 at 08:18 PM
sebboh
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p.52 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
AF- yes, it all depends on requirements. Don't know about the LV on the M yet but clearly the OVF when used for MF is gong to be a dramatically better experience on the M vs the Rx1. The size of the M will also almost certainly make it a more ergonomic shooting experience as well. I just see these two - RX1 and M - being so dramatically on opposite ends of the ergonomic user spectrum to the point it's almost folly to compare the RX1 to a Leica M (particularly since the M seems like it can
...Show more

for situations where the optical finder is not helpful (it's actively infuriating for me for anything other than casual portraits) the rx1 will handle better because it has a better lcd, a better evf, and almost certainly faster responsiveness and electronics. as far as controls and size i doubt the difference will be that great, you can control all shooting parameters except iso without hitting any buttons on either camera. i'm sure different people will have different opions about size depending on how they grip it. for me the m9 is an awkward in between size and i find much less comfortable to handle than a number of smaller and larger cameras.



Sep 24, 2012 at 08:51 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.52 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


sebboh wrote:


Derek - curious to why you think the LV would be so much better in the Sony? It's quite obvious you don't like the Leica camera's but is there any basis to this statement? We haven't seen either camera in action yet....



Sep 24, 2012 at 10:44 PM
AhamB
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p.52 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


^I think he's just going by Leica's track record. Sony has everything needed to make amazing electronics, but for Leica electronics really have been secondary so far.


Sep 24, 2012 at 11:14 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.52 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Yes - I agree with that but was wondering if there were some unofficial tests or something I was missing...


Sep 24, 2012 at 11:15 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.52 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


The Leica M uses an Epson made viewfinder from 2010? 1.4M dots vs the Sony's 2.4M OLED evf.


Sep 24, 2012 at 11:17 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.52 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq, agreed, the RX1 does not really compare directly to any of the digital M cameras from Leica, except that the M9, M, and RX1 are all full frame "mirrorless" compact cameras and as such belong to a very small club, for the next little while at least.

Both are serious photographic tools capable of pushing out very high quality results. Because of this comparisons are therefore unavoidable.

At least comparisons of image results are bound to be fun.




Sep 24, 2012 at 11:51 PM
sebboh
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p.52 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Gary Clennan wrote:
Derek - curious to why you think the LV would be so much better in the Sony? It's quite obvious you don't like the Leica camera's but is there any basis to this statement? We haven't seen either camera in action yet....


just going by the specs on the M lcd and evf and the fact that leica's electronics have been notoriously kludgy while sony has the best liveview implementation of any camera maker currently (imo of course).

i don't dislike leica cameras, i just think rangefinders are to limiting for my main camera. they are great for environmental portraits and spontaneous street photography, but i would be incredibly annoyed by them if i had to shoot anything else with them. digital leicas also seem a bit kludgy to me in design and size compared to many of their film predecessors. it seems like the new M will allow users to get around a lot of the limitations of rangefinders, but i sincerly doubt that working in liveview will be as smoothly done as a modern mirrorless cameras or even canon dslrs.



Sep 25, 2012 at 12:34 AM
thrice
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p.52 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


The M LCD is full sRGB colour space, 921k dots and all other specs the same as the RX1.
To me that seems superior.
The EVF is obviously superior on the Sony.
I agree that Sony have excellent live view, but I find the peaking sometimes a little too aggressive (even in low mode). The M implementation is VERY exacting and subtle but I have not seen an example of how aggressive you can make it.

Electronics and responsiveness were great on the S, and that processor is now in the M, so I believe we will all have to reserve judgement until we see how the cameras perform.



Sep 25, 2012 at 01:33 AM
sebboh
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p.52 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


thrice wrote:
The M LCD is full sRGB colour space, 921k dots and all other specs the same as the RX1.
To me that seems superior.


why does lower resolution seem superior to you?

thrice wrote:
The EVF is obviously superior on the Sony.


why is that? i find the NEX-7 evf that will be on the rx1 (hopefully with improved optics) to be much better for manual focus (again due to higher res and a bigger screen) than the rebadged olympus one that leica is using.

edit: oops, i read that as the evf is better than the sony. sorry

thrice wrote:
I agree that Sony have excellent live view, but I find the peaking sometimes a little too aggressive (even in low mode). The M implementation is VERY exacting and subtle but I have not seen an example of how aggressive you can make it.


agreed about sony's peaking but i've found that setting the color to white seems to make it less intrusive (at least through evf), but i've found that i don't really need peaking and can focus faster and more accurately on the evf without zooming or peaking than i can on an slr (rangefinder is still faster, but not always as useful).

thrice wrote:
Electronics and responsiveness were great on the S, and that processor is now in the M, so I believe we will all have to reserve judgement until we see how the cameras perform.


i've not used the S so i can't speak for it. i've heard it is much better than the m9, but the S is not a liveview camera (heavier processing load), so we'll have to see. hopefully it won't be a problem. beyond processing speed a lot will depend on how the controls and interface are set up (perhaps you know more about this).

Edited on Sep 25, 2012 at 02:07 AM · View previous versions



Sep 25, 2012 at 01:58 AM
freaklikeme
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p.52 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Of all the up-coming product smackdowns (M vs M9, M9 vs ME, 6D vs D600, a99 vs 5DIII, NEX 6 vs 7, RX1 vs everything else) I'm very curious to see how an a99 with a converted ZF 35/2 will stack up against the RX1. I'm really hoping one of our deep-geek gearheads will make that happen.


Sep 25, 2012 at 02:03 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.52 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


As much as I am intrigued with the RX1, I do have doubts or questions about the firmware and about how well the product will be supported by Sony.

This is a Cyber-shot camera; could focus peaking be implemented differently than on the NEX? Or is peaking done the same on both Alpha and NEX, suggesting Cyber-shot RX1 gets the same treatment?

I hope Sony has tweaked peaking since I used it on the NEX-5N. It would be nice if they took a page or two out of Ricoh's book and at least provided the means to temporarily disable focus peaking and magnification with a half-press of the shutter. I found Sony's peaking at times too busy and got in the way of composition; the Ricoh approach gets you back a clear finder screen with a shutter half-press. On the other hand I expect I'd use the RX1 in autofocus mode primarily.

In terms of long term support I fear that buyers may not be able to rely on Sony to fix firmware issues in a timely basis; for such a camera I want to hear the company declare they'll be faithful to the product and stand behind it with superior post-sales service *including* firmware updates. As a cautionary example, look at the NEX-7 -- now a year after the initial launch, the NEX-7 has yet to see a single firmware update.

In contrast Ricoh has a demonstrated track record of supporting its camera products with firmware updates long after release.

Does a high MSRP guarantee superior after sales service from Sony?



Sep 25, 2012 at 02:11 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.52 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


other companies release fw to fix bugs.

the last ricoh updat fixed exif errors, color display errors, color bracketing errors.

fuji fixed their slow autofocus, manual focus ring, and lock ups during shooting.



Sep 25, 2012 at 07:53 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.52 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Re Sony Firmware updates...in my experience, they are much, much slower to release updates then say Fuji BUT part of that is they get more MAJOR stuff right from the beginning. Many of the things fixed by Fuji firmware updates, for instance, are almost like Beta issues that should have never been released in a finished product to begin with. So, Sony may be slow to release minor tweaks but will likely not have released a product with major issues form the beginning.


Sep 25, 2012 at 09:18 AM
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