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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

  
 
alwang
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p.51 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


shogo73 wrote:
Sorry, I have not gone thru the entire thread to check to see if someone has already post this.

I am also excited about this camera.

Have you see the MTF?

http://www.sony.jp/products/catalog/DSC_news.pdf

Second page to the right. Wide open, 10, 20 and 40 lines/mm.

Looks pretty awesome.


Yeah, looks similar, but superior to, the MTFs from the ZE/ZF 35/2, as well as the ZM 35/2.



Sep 22, 2012 at 09:02 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.51 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


alwang wrote:
Yeah, looks similar, but superior to, the MTFs from the ZE/ZF 35/2, as well as the ZM 35/2.


As mentioned many, many pages back when the MTF's first came up, the problem with Sony's MTF's is that, unlike the Zeiss MTF's for their MF lenses, Sony's are only calculated. They are not accurate. Some suggest lowering everything by 20 to get an idea of what a real, measured MTF for the Sony Zeiss lenses might be.



Sep 22, 2012 at 09:06 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.51 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


While in between gigs (in Alicante, Spain, presently, and off to Vancouver Tuesday morning) I have read every page here. Like all the great FM threads, much besides the RX1 is canvassed. And while I like FF as much as the next person, I will be buying the Fuji X-E1+ 30/1.4 as soon as it's available and I believe it will serve my purposes better than the Sony.

Here's my reasoning; first the reasons against the RX1:

For me, although most people have been extolling the virtues of a tiny FF camera, the RX1 body is too small and, at the same time, not small enough: every one of the small body cameras I have owned (XZ1, GF1 and 2, and my current Panny GX1) have needed grips, and the Zeiss lens on the RX-1 means it's not pocketable—if not pocketable, why not go a bit larger? The RX-1 grippy body covering material seems to rule out something like the Freniac grips I have used successfully on a few bodies, too.

No EVF. This is a big one for me; I am using the GX1 with a decent add-on EVF, but even it's a problem ergonomically in terms of removing the camera quickly from the bag I carry it in. At least its design means that it can't fall off, or be pulled off, and the diopter remains set—this is a big plus if using one of these. More generally, there's no way I can compose (or hold steady) a body that I can't hold to my face. I know that I can add an EVF or OVF, of course.

50mm FOV is my preferred focal length. I note, though, the clever slightly zoomed ~17Mp option on the RX1 (this is brilliant, honestly); and 12Mp was enough for paying work for years, after all.

Now, the pluses for the X-E1:

Built-in high resolution EVF. 'Nuff said.

Compact body that will fit my hand size and probably not need any grip. For me, the X-E1's larger body is the smallest practical camera size for me (especially considering the built-in EVF)

Excellent button layout, and manual controls for everything I need photographically

The excellent 30mm lens, and an extra stop in speed (so, from a bokeh perspective, similar DOF control give the X-E1's APS-C sensor)

The interchangeable lens aspect; with the new lenses (and the wide zoom and the pancake 27/2.8, 41 EFOV, coming) make this X series look like a really viable system. I mention the 28, because that makes a really compact walk-around setup (and my current favourite focal length on the Panny GX1)

The X-trans sensor.

All of this in the context of thinking that I had settled on the GX1, the RRS bottom bracket (and the excellent range of lenses; I use the 7–14, 12/2, 20/1.7, and the 45/1.8; this does everything I need now).

I think that the APS-C sensor really makes sense on this new Fuji body, in a way that it didn't on all the DX bodies I owned (and where moving to the FX versions of these bodies made perfect sense, once they became available).

I agree that the RX-1 is a ground-breaker, but honestly feel that the X-E1 is likely to be the better camera in many ways, not the least of all in terms of usability. Time will tell, of course.

Edited on Sep 23, 2012 at 02:48 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2012 at 09:13 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.51 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Kit Laughlin wrote:
While in between gigs (in Alicante, Spain, presently, and off to Vancouver Tuesday morning) I have read every page here. Like all the great FM threads, much besides the RX1 is canvassed. And while I like FF as much as the next person, I will be buying the Fuji X-E1+ 30/1.4 as soon as it's available and I believe it will serve my purposes better than the Sony.

Here's my reasoning; first the reasons against the RX1:

For me, although most people have been extolling the virtues of a tiny FF camera, the RX1 body is too small and, at
...Show more

What can I say but +1?

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Sep 23, 2012 at 09:25 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.51 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Agree about most of the points against the RX1. Fro me, useability is the main problem. For instance, I know I would use an OVF on it but would miss having any sort of info/feedback about AF accuracy, exposure and so on. That and the lack of a tilt LCD are probably the deal breakers for me.

I love everything about the Fuji's, particularly the hybrid OVF/EFR, except for the CFA they went with - and the artifacts it produces. If not for that, I would still have an X-Pro1. Just saw another type of artifact mentioned here:
http://www.digilloyd.com/



Sep 23, 2012 at 09:42 AM
sebboh
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p.51 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


the xe-1 does look very attractive to me, but unlike my nex-7 it is probably a little too big to fit in my coat pocket. the lenses look very nice though. the rx-1 is even smaller than my nex-7 which i'm very excited about, i've never had any trouble holding small cameras and the fact that this has an aperture dial makes me pretty confident i won't have any trouble with the controls of it. the lack of flip lcd may be a deal breaker though, i'll have to see what the shooting experience is like with and without the evf.


Sep 23, 2012 at 10:22 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.51 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq, until Adobe get that together, the JPEGs look excellent (and I remember how much I liked the look of the JPEGs out of the S5 Pro, too). I have to acknowledge that the X-E1 does not have a tilt EVF (or tilt LCD); I have found both of these very useful.


Sep 23, 2012 at 10:36 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.51 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Kit, with the same subject matter, the jpegs have issues as well. This mostly only matters for landscape type subject matter though, so it may not impact your use. Fuji's traditionally produce great jpegs in my experience as well - before the use of this Xtrans CFA. I think they have some more work to do in perfecting that CFA scheme.


Sep 23, 2012 at 10:46 AM
Makten
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p.51 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Kit Laughlin wrote:
if not pocketable, why not go a bit larger?


That's a really strange argument. Why would it have to be pocketable just because you want it to be as small as possible? I bring a small bag with me everyday and I want a camera that fits in it. The current FF SLR:s don't. I also want a light camera that I can wear around my neck for hours without strain, but I have no need for it to fit in my pocket (anything larger than a cell phone won't fit). The only thing about the RX1 that puts me off is the non-tiltable screen. Everything else seems just perfect, including the price.



Sep 23, 2012 at 11:39 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.51 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


+1 to the RX1 being slightly bigger since it isn't a pocketable camera, much like the X100 isn't pocketable, and in doing so featuring improved grip and including a tilt LCD and/or an EVF.

The RX1 design seems to have been constrained by a desire to make it as small as possible in order to set the bar very high for others that follow. Rightly or wrongly the comment-o-sphere often fixates on physical metrics and perhaps Sony was sensitive to this thanks to all the "lens too big" comments surrounding the NEX family. In addition, belonging to the the Cyber-shot family further imposes upon the RX1 feature constraints that may be completely logical from Sony's perspective but seem unnecessary or arbitrary to photographers who want a camera with usability in mind first and foremost.

The following images are from this CameraSize.com montage:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#140,129,133,371.359,376,34.88,235,ha,t

Truly Pocketable

Canon S100


Ricoh CX6

Big Jacket Pockets

Fujifilm X10 (maybe "pocketable)


Fujifilm X100


Sony RX1 (not a lot larger than the Fujifilm X10)

You Wanna Case With That, Right?

Fujifilm X-E1


Sony NEX-5N


Sony RX1 (not much bigger than bare body X-E1 or NEX)

Sony NEX Lenses Are Huge. Wait A Minute, Then Fujifilm Lenses are... HUGER.

Fujifilm 18-55


Sony 18-55

While I'm not shopping for the smallest size, I do appreciate a smaller camera as long as it isn't awkward. Personally I think the camera is large enough that it will handle OK.

The lack of tilting rear LCD for me is made up for by the availability of a tilting EVF, although a tilting EVF isn't quite as good when I'm crawling on the ground in the pursuit of an image. I console myself knowing either solution is miles better than the film cameras I used to shoot.

Ultimately for me what I want is:

- really good autofocus
- high image quality
- a focal length I can live with, most of the time
- a viewfinder. Hey, maybe even two.
- some future proofing via lens quailty and sensor quality = image quality sufficient to stand the test of time
- as portable as possible,
and, seemingly impossible,
- a second longer focal length all in the same package

Bag Snags. Ugh.

This is a big issue for me too given the entire reason I'm invested in compact high IQ cameras is so that I can carry them everywhere, every day. After a year of shooting NEX and GXR and I find I'm constantly putting on and taking off the EVF if I'm using my small utility case, or I'm carrying a larger bag than I want to (with more lenses too). At least with the GXR and RX1 removing and installing the EVF is a quick operation.

Do I even need an EVF for manual focus lens-equipped NEX or GXR? Yes; I'm far sighted enough that close focus on the rear LCD can be difficult for me at times, but my vision doesn't require wearing glasses for moving about. Focus peaking can often work in nailing focus quickly but if a subject requires wide open aperture and critical focus on one element I find I either need a the EVF mounted or must be wearing my eye glasses which rarely are with me while shooting.

I can see the autofocus RX1 helping in some situations that currently frustrate my efforts, and possibly there'll be no downside to having AF provided there is a workable method of zone focussing and that direct manual focus actually works well.

That all said, bag-snag has been a real issue for me. But rather than throwing the camera out of the picture, there's a simple solution... purchase a bag that fits. I'd bought for the X100 a non-camera-bag that cost me all of $9 at a mountaineering equipment store. It has been in daily use for 18 months and still looks new and will last forever.

I wouldn't have bought *that* bag if I had a NEX-5N or GXR or Sony RX1 in my hand, instead I'd have looked for another $9 or $18 or 36 dollar vertically oriented carrying case for my wallet, cell phone, keys, and a single camera/lens, this time with EVF already mounted. Find one and I'm good. I'll probably get one that can accommodate the small paper notebook I like to carry, too.

I'm not trying to convince anyone but myself of anything here, even though I'm still not convinced the RX1 is a, not "the", camera for me... but I'm becoming more convinced. If only Sony announced lens converters at the same time too...

Edited on Sep 23, 2012 at 01:31 PM · View previous versions



Sep 23, 2012 at 12:26 PM
snowboarder
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p.51 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


To me the only thing I'll miss is the tilting LCD.
Everything else I don't agree with.
EVF - I love the one on my 5N because
I can tilt it up. Also again, the new EVF when
released will work with RX1, if it's built in,
you can throw your camera away. And we can
expect an improved EVF probably this year,
it would s@ck not to be able to update it
on such a great camera.
Also I love holding my 5N by the lens.
It's the most comfortable. Like let's say
my 50 Lux on 5N. So the proprtions of
the larger lens on the small body works great
for me.
Also this is not gonna replace an entire
camera SYSTEM, if you like Fuji, you'll
likely get more lenses. RX1 is great as
a companion camera.



Sep 23, 2012 at 01:08 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.51 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


@ Maketen: Why would it have to be pocketable just because you want it to be as small as possible?

Sorry to be not clear: my point was that, if not able to be slipped in to a pocket (like an XZ1, or an S95), then the selection criterion can be reordered: IF it can't be pocketed, then consider a larger form factor that might have advantages like button size and placement—that is, other criteria can be allowed to become more important.

The larger point for me is that too-small bodies are a negative. I don't want a body/lens to be as small as possible—I want to have it with me always, but it needs to be as useable as possible, and smaller than a certain size does not mean that for me. This is a completely personal matter.

@ snowborder: I get the usability aspect of the tilt EVF (or tilt LCD) completely; when I do move to the X-E1, I will need to keep the GX1 with the 7–14 for interiors, anyway.

@ Tariq: landscapes not a priority for me; faces are though, so let's hope eventually that Adobe untangles the X-Trans.



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:00 PM
Makten
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p.51 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Kit Laughlin wrote:
Sorry to be not clear: my point was that, if not able to be slipped in to a pocket (like an XZ1, or an S95), then the selection criterion can be reordered: IF it can't be pocketed, then consider a larger form factor that might have advantages like button size and placement—that is, other criteria can be allowed to become more important.


I hear ya, but the pocketable camera will have these disadvantages as well, and if you could live with them then, why not in a slightly larger, non-pocketable camera? An SLR will be so much larger that the comparison is almost ridiculous.

The larger point for me is that too-small bodies are a negative. I don't want a body/lens to be as small as possible—I want to have it with me always, but it needs to be as useable as possible, and smaller than a certain size does not mean that for me. This is a completely personal matter.

Sure, but again, then all the pocketable cameras would not suit you either, right?

---------

Everything is about compromises. I see the RX1 as a device giving (hopefully) superior IQ to any pocketable camera, while still being much, much smaller and more portable than any other FF camera. Complaining about the size is just... I don't know. Stupid? There are already both pocketable cameras AND those with all the bells and whistles on the market. How could you possibly ask for both in the same package? It doesn't make sense.



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:10 PM
Siddhu
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p.51 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Makten wrote:
I hear ya, but the pocketable camera will have these disadvantages as well, and if you could live with them then, why not in a slightly larger, non-pocketable camera? An SLR will be so much larger that the comparison is almost ridiculous.

Sure, but again, then all the pocketable cameras would not suit you either, right?

---------

Everything is about compromises. I see the RX1 as a device giving (hopefully) superior IQ to any pocketable camera, while still being much, much smaller and more portable than any other FF camera. Complaining about the size is just... I don't know. Stupid? There are already
...Show more


+1



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:19 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.51 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


@ Makten; my points may not make sense to you; that's for you to contemplate. At no point in my note was I considering a DSLR. I was talking about other smaller-than-DSLR cameras (mirrorless, to be precise). I was not complaining about size, per se, but about usability. Too small means harder to use, for me.

And many pocketable cameras DID suit me, for a while, but all needed grips. All I was saying was that, in and of itself, "small" is neither good nor bad: just that 'small' is one of the criteria being considered. And (to repeat myself), IF a camera is truly not a pocket camera with the convenience that this term implies, then other criteria might be more important.

It's clear that you are missing my point. Let me make it again: too small does not work for me (but might for you). The RX1 is small in two dimensions, but not in the third (depth). I would prefer slightly wider (with a better grip), and taller (enough for an EVF to be built in). If it had these characteristics, then the depth dimension (the possibly great lens) would be tolerable.

BTW, I just spent a moment with your profile: we have owned many of the same cameras, so I conclude that you have been working though a similar process of weighing various aspects of size, IQ, usability, etc. against others, for years. If you like the RX1, order one; I will be interested in your responses to it. I will be ordering the X-E1 for the reasons I have given.



Sep 23, 2012 at 03:26 PM
ricardovaste
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p.51 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Just checking by.. Do we have RX1 + EVF prices yet? Or even a photo of the evf attached? I've seen people mention this, but not seen one myself... :-(


Sep 23, 2012 at 05:10 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.51 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Probably there are more photos of the RX1 mated with the Zeiss optical finder because it looks a little trimmer.

Here's the RX1 with the EVF attached (credit: Digital Camera Watch, dc.watch.impress.co.jp)

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/559/135/104.jpg

Here's the RX1 w/EVF in between the RX100 and NEX-7:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/559/135/113.jpg

Here's the RX1 with the Zeiss 35mm optical finder and a thumb rest installed.

http://www.photographyblog.com/images/uploads_news/sony_rx1_preview_20.jpg

A bunch of other hands-on photos can be found at DC Camera Watch here as well as at Photography Blog here.

Pricing for the EVF is listed on the Cyber-shot RX1 camera page at Sony.jp:

By Carl Zeiss optical design with excellent viewfinder kit "FDA-V1K" bright and clear optical November 16 Release Date: MSRP: 49,350 yen (47,000 yen excluding tax)

Viewfinder Kit "FDA-EV1MK" high-resolution electron which adopted the organic EL XGA November 16 Release Date: MSRP: 44,100 yen (42,000 yen excluding tax)


If prices translate directly that's ~ $560 US for the EVF, $630 for the OVF. Call it $499 and $599 USD maybe?



Sep 23, 2012 at 05:34 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.51 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


the thumbgrip is well thought out that it swings out of the way to access some buttons.
http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.com/2012/09/more-dsc-rx1-hands-on-with-cameradiner.html




Sep 23, 2012 at 08:13 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.51 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Thanks for the video link.

It's too bad they didn't add extension contacts in the thumb grip to turn it into a hot shoe such that the EVF could still be used. Maybe cases will help with grip, if needed.

Hopefully lens caps aren't additional $$$. Hood prices are silly high - hard to justify against say a ZM hood. Maybe those will be more realistic at launch. Or there's always the third party market... already advertising hoods on eBay even though they haven't fondled the camera yet.

Didn't expect the Sony supplied case to work with a hood, too bad, although I've never used a never-ready case I like anyway so no loss to me.



Sep 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM
sebboh
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p.51 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


michaelwatkins wrote:
Thanks for the video link.

It's too bad they didn't add extension contacts in the thumb grip to turn it into a hot shoe such that the EVF could still be used. Maybe cases will help with grip, if needed.

Hopefully lens caps aren't additional $$$. Hood prices are silly high - hard to justify against say a ZM hood. Maybe those will be more realistic at launch. Or there's always the third party market... already advertising hoods on eBay even though they haven't fondled the camera yet.

Didn't expect the Sony supplied case to work with a hood, too bad, although I've
...Show more

49mm filter threads means there are already a ton of 99 cent hoods and caps. it is a shame about the lack of pass through on the thumb grip, but honestly, the lens isn't that big so i doubt i'll see any need for the thumb grip.



Sep 23, 2012 at 11:54 PM
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