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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)

  
 
douglasf13
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p.35 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
The shutter button on the X100 is not comfortable for me unless I use one of those deals that screws into it and raised it a bit. I also agree about the NEX-7. It's remarkably comfortable to hold and shoot given it's size.

Now about that $3400 you think your saving...Photokina has not even started yet! There may be one or two must have surprises.


Yeah, I've got a couple of the screw in thingies, which makes it better, but still not as good as the NEX-7, for my hand.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:00 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.35 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


There used to be a time when a company would release something amazing and expensive without a bunch of people on the internet feeling like they're entitled to it so it must be less than their credit limit.


Sep 12, 2012 at 05:04 PM
rattymouse
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p.35 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


FlyPenFly wrote:
There used to be a time when a company would release something amazing and expensive without a bunch of people on the internet feeling like they're entitled to it so it must be less than their credit limit.


Those days are loooooong gone.




Sep 12, 2012 at 05:05 PM
JonasY
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p.35 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


What people tends to forget is that we have pretty much reached the point in the digital IQ development where future progress will be very limited. Just look at the D3/D700, five years later it's still more than enough.

I doubt that there will be any camera in the next 10 years that will under normal shooting circumstances will show noticeable better IQ than a RX1. Faster, less noise, better ergonomics, cheaper ... sure, but IQ wise, I don't think so.

So we have reached about the same level in development for compact cameras as DSLR's did five years ago, i.e, what you buy today will image wise stand 5-10 years, likely more. Actually I believe it will stand until we see the next revolution in (digital) photography. Basically it's like buying a Leica a M3 in 1954. It lasted until 2009 when the M9 made it obsolete.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:08 PM
sebboh
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p.35 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


FlyPenFly wrote:
There used to be a time when a company would release something amazing and expensive without a bunch of people on the internet feeling like they're entitled to it so it must be less than their credit limit.


there was? while the internet existed?



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:09 PM
douglasf13
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p.35 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


JonasY wrote:
What people tends to forget is that we have pretty much reached the point in the digital IQ development where future progress will be very limited. Just look at the D3/D700, five years later it's still more than enough.

I doubt that there will be any camera in the next 10 years that will under normal shooting circumstances will show noticeable better IQ than a RX1. Faster, less noise, better ergonomics, cheaper ... sure, but IQ wise, I don't think so.

So we have reached about the same level in development for compact cameras as DSLR's did five years ago, i.e,
...Show more

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make earlier. This should last a while.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:10 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.35 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


JonasY wrote:
What people tends to forget is that we have pretty much reached the point in the digital IQ development where future progress will be very limited. Just look at the D3/D700, five years later it's still more than enough.

I doubt that there will be any camera in the next 10 years that will under normal shooting circumstances will show noticeable better IQ than a RX1. Faster, less noise, better ergonomics, cheaper ... sure, but IQ wise, I don't think so.

So we have reached about the same level in development for compact cameras as DSLR's did five years ago, i.e,
...Show more

Until someone figures out how to scale up lytro technology or something we can't think of right now.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:10 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.35 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
The comparison bothers me because seeing it - and having owned and used the X100 - I know 1)the RX1 will be just way too small to comfortably use.


That's a concern I have, although looking at it from the top deck:





... the RX1 appears to address one X100 ergonomic issue, for me - I found the aperture control on the X100 uncomfortable to use. On the RX1 the ring appears to stand out farther from the body which should help.

As the NEX-5N I owned was surprisingly (to me) comfortable to hold and use as was the NEX-7 I fondled one afternoon, I'm going to give Sony the benefit of doubt on this one until i can handle one.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:20 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.35 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


JonasY wrote:
What people tends to forget is that we have pretty much reached the point in the digital IQ development where future progress will be very limited. Just look at the D3/D700, five years later it's still more than enough.

I doubt that there will be any camera in the next 10 years that will under normal shooting circumstances will show noticeable better IQ than a RX1. Faster, less noise, better ergonomics, cheaper ... sure, but IQ wise, I don't think so.

So we have reached about the same level in development for compact cameras as DSLR's did five years ago, i.e,
...Show more

Oh, I don't know about that. When we finally leave the requirement for a CFA over a black and white sensor to create interpolated color, overall IQ will take a huge jump imo. I think we will see that in the next five years - and implemented better than the current Foveon.

Even when that happens though, IQ is really excellent right now. I just have this feeling when we see just how good it can be, folks might see their shiny 2012 bayer based color sensors as old hat.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:36 PM
photo.guy
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p.35 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Having spent a lot of time going over things in my head, I don't think this is going to be the camera for me.

As soon as the NEX line was announced, I bought a NEX-5 the day they were available here, and have been relatively happy shooting with that as my primary camera ever since. No viewfinder, but none of the AF problems that DSLRs had, or MF issues with focus screen alignment. For MF shots, being able to zoom in to a 14x view, or use focus peaking is a much better way to work in my opinion, and I prefer using a live histogram to anything else for metering. My biggest complaints with the NEX-5 is that it's relatively slow to turn on, noisy compared to newer sensors, and the shutter is quite loud. Oh, and the video options are terrible. These have already been fixed or drastically improved upon with newer revisions of the camera.

While the RX1 is going to be a huge step forward in image quality compared to my NEX, it also seems like it will be a big step backwards in usability. It was only when I grabbed my camera to use it again today that I realised just how often I actually make use of the adjustable LCD. It's rare that I am actually shooting with it flat on the back of the camera. Even just pulling it straight back gives you more options for holding it, and brings the screen closer to your face. (but I am often not shooting at eye-level now) I think the lack of a grip is going to be a problem as well.

While I have not missed a viewfinder terribly since getting the NEX, I certainly wouldn't object to having one for more discrete shooting. Obviously I know nothing of the engineering constraints with the design, but the camera I'm wanting would not have the flash, and an EVF would be in its place. The LCD would have to be smaller to accommodate this, but I wouldn't mind that if they could also make it adjustable.


What concerns me most about purchasing a camera like this, probably doesn't affect many of the photographers here too much, but it's actually software and future-proofing. With Sony adding WiFi to the new NEX cameras along with apps, I think we are headed towards a future where we'll have Android in the cameras a year or two from now, rather than Sony's proprietary apps, and that is going to open up a lot of options for photographers. I already want wireless photo transfer as standard (I have an Eye-Fi card, but it is slow and a big drain on the battery) and a wireless viewfinder. One of the other things I missed when getting the NEX was the USB camera control I had with my old Canon DSLR.


And video quality is currently terrible on just about all "DSLRs". The bitrates are low, and none resolve anything near 1080p. It's not an issue with the sensor, as they can clearly shoot stills far outresolving 1080p (2MP) but for some reason quality is seriously compromised. Motion suffers from "jello" to varying degrees on CMOS-based cameras, which won't be resolved until we see a global shutter introduced rather than the rolling shutter that current cameras use. While they advertise 1080p60 video, I guarantee it won't resolve anything close to 1080p, and will still suffer from "jello" with motion.

Hacked Panasonic micro 4/3 cameras are the only real option for anyone wanting to shoot video seriously on a consumer-grade interchangeable lens camera system today - image quality is actually better than the pro AF100 camera! This is something that a switch to a more open apps system is likely to improve, eliminating the need for firmware hacks. (the end goal would be RAW video just like RED is shooting)


It just costs too much for me to buy into this camera where a significant portion of the cost is going into the lens, but that lens will not be able to come with me when it comes time to upgrade - and I will want to upgrade, because there are a number of things we will see fixed or improved upon in coming years.


Now if all you're wanting is a camera for stills that can fit in a jacket pocket, that might suit you just fine of course, but the reason the general market is moving towards phone cameras is more than just the fact that they fit into your pocket.

rattymouse wrote:
That's true for gear chasers, but less important for photographers. We have long since passed what film is capable of and have reached a point where new sensors offer less advantage over the previous ones. Yes there may be the odd bit of improvement but it is less and less.

The world's most iconic photographs have been made with lesser gear than this and if you cant with this new Sony, a new, better sensor isnt going to be the reason why.

Just wait until it becomes feasible to bring their mobile sensor technology to SLR-sized sensors. Even if you are relatively happy with your camera, you will probably get the itch to upgrade again when we start seeing another leap in sensitivity.

And I agree that better technology does not necessarily lead to better images, but it certainly helps, and I don't think this hobby is just about the pictures for a lot of the people that visit photography sites - it's also about the gear.



Sep 12, 2012 at 05:56 PM
uhoh7
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p.35 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


sebboh wrote:
there was? while the internet existed?


Of course. Did you miss it? I think it happened around 1990. The bandwidth simply could not handle whining, so those packets were dropped

However today the full range of human nature can be transmitted.



Sep 12, 2012 at 09:42 PM
millsart
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p.35 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Oh, I don't know about that. When we finally leave the requirement for a CFA over a black and white sensor to create interpolated color, overall IQ will take a huge jump imo. I think we will see that in the next five years - and implemented better than the current Foveon.

Even when that happens though, IQ is really excellent right now. I just have this feeling when we see just how good it can be, folks might see their shiny 2012 bayer based color sensors as old hat.



Agree fully, however the big question is, what is even better IQ going to do for us ?

I live in a normal sized home with normal sized rooms, and those rooms have walls that can accommodate prints of a certain size, which for the most part, current gear easily meets if not exceeds.

Realistically, even if the latest CaNikOny XZY88 has 100 megapixels etc, what am I going to do with that type of output ?

What is more IQ going to do for the same boring photos I take of the same boring sites along my typical evening walks ?

I know of course technology keeps moving forward, but, there also comes that point where you have to wonder if it really makes a difference anymore.

For 99% of PC users for example, there is no real advantage to newer PC's. Any machine in the past 5 years can easily do all the web surfing, video's etc most people need, save for a small handful with insanely high MP cameras

I'm not anti tech or anything like but, but simply have to wonder, is a ISO 1 million 200 megapixel image of a cat, or or kid etc really making the photo any better ?



Sep 12, 2012 at 10:03 PM
Jman13
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p.35 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


^^^ I couldn't agree more, Millsart.

I honestly don't currently need anything higher than a current 16 MP sensor gives me. I print mostly 12x18s when I get prints for framing...with the occasional larger print (I have a 16x22, a 16x20, two 20x30s one 30x40 (which I think I should have gotten as a 24x30 just because it's too large for the room) and a 60" canvas, though that was a stitch of 18 images from my old E-P1...and it looks fantastic). My current bodies can easily produce outstanding output at those sizes. My next big print will be my panorama of the Pittsburgh skyline at night, which is a three image stitch and will easily handle printing at 48" wide.

With most of my prints, even when shot at ISO 3200 or so, there's essentially zero visible noise up to prints at about 12x18...so what am I going to do with significantly better image quality? Admire it on the screen?

I'm sure eventually I'll get a higher MP body, simply because that's where the tech goes, but honestly...I'm cringing a bit at the 24 MB RAW images from the NEX-7 that I'm testing this week....and I probably will only shoot 1,000-1,500 frames with that camera. The thought of D800 RAWs is just not for me. It astounds me that they don't have an mRAW or something at about 18 MP.

Now, better color fidelity and gradation would be nice, though not necessarily a requirement. Every once in a while I'll take a shot that I really wish the RAW file just had more discreet steps to avoid issues with smooth gradation, but it's very rare.

And I've got a pretty darn fast machine (core i5 2500K running at 4.5 GHz with 16 GB of RAM, an SSD and 3TB of HDDs.)



Sep 12, 2012 at 10:18 PM
Jacob D
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p.35 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


This thing sure is generating some chatter. The sound of heads wrapping around the idea of a FF P&S is almost audible


Sep 12, 2012 at 11:01 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.35 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


rattymouse wrote:
That is only true if the camera breaks down. Otherwise, it is simply the never ending chase for gear that forces you to think this way. I am shooting with cameras that are over 5 years old and never think twice about that fact. I enjoy the images I get from and could care less about the age. The rat race for the latest gear is highly destructive to the spirit of photography when one has to constantly think of the fallacy that the next piece of gear is the missing component to why my pictures are substandard.

This Sony camera,
...Show more

I'm sorry but your post is quite funny. You're not the first one to say that. Almost everyone says it. But for some reason, this RX1 is the ultimate camera that anyone should have, and noone will ever buy another camera after this one. But in 6 months time, there will be another ultimate camera, and everyone will say it will last them 10 years, while in fact it won't last until the end of the year.



Sep 12, 2012 at 11:02 PM
rattymouse
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p.35 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


edwardkaraa wrote:
I'm sorry but your post is quite funny. You're not the first one to say that. Almost everyone says it. But for some reason, this RX1 is the ultimate camera that anyone should have, and noone will ever buy another camera after this one. But in 6 months time, there will be another ultimate camera, and everyone will say it will last them 10 years, while in fact it won't last until the end of the year.


It's not funny to me specifically. I shoot with a Fujifilm S5 Pro, which is 5+ years old, and now a GA645, which is 15+ years old. I have an X100, which is my newest camera at 2 years old.

I despise the gear race more than words can say. To me what is funny is people who run after gear, year after year after year.




Sep 12, 2012 at 11:05 PM
rscheffler
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p.35 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


millsart wrote:
Agree fully, however the big question is, what is even better IQ going to do for us ?

I live in a normal sized home with normal sized rooms, and those rooms have walls that can accommodate prints of a certain size, which for the most part, current gear easily meets if not exceeds.

Realistically, even if the latest CaNikOny XZY88 has 100 megapixels etc, what am I going to do with that type of output ?

What is more IQ going to do for the same boring photos I take of the same boring sites along my typical evening walks ?

I know
...Show more

Well, marketing departments will be sure to find reasons to try to convince us of the need for ever more megapixels.

Working in a news environment, the 1D camera I bought in late 2001 was certainly adequate and the 8MP 1DII series was probably optimum for this application, allowing some cropping flexibility and good high ISO performance. 10 years later I just acquired an 18MP 1DX. Images from it, content-wise, really aren't any different, but how I shoot has somewhat changed. IMO f/4 lenses are the new f/2.8 that I needed with film and the 1D because it was already banding at ISO 800. I typically shot the 1D as tight as possible to maximize the 4MP, relying a lot on a 600mm lens to get me close to the action, when light permitted, sometimes even with teleconverters. Since the 16MP 1DIV I typically shoot 'loose' with the 400 and crop if needed.

That's where I think future resolution bumps are heading... we're going to see a lot more 'get the shot and crop as much as needed' and a lot more internal processing to take advantage of the extra resolution via software lens/image corrections, pixel binning, image optimization through downscaling.... things that otherwise would degrade image quality noticeably with our current 'meager' sensor resolution options.

It will be interesting to revisit this in 10 years to see where we're really at. Maybe it will be 100MP. That's what my local Zeiss dealer says the new ZE/ZF lenses are designed to resolve. And we might be regularly dealing with 4K or 8K video... I would never say never...



Sep 12, 2012 at 11:05 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.35 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


rattymouse wrote:
It's not funny to me specifically. I shoot with a Fujifilm S5 Pro, which is 5+ years old, and now a GA645, which is 15+ years old. I have an X100, which is my newest camera at 2 years old.

I despise the gear race more than words can say. To me what is funny is people who run after gear, year after year after year.



I am not looking for an argument with you rattymouse, especially that I'm with you in that I also dislike the gear race. But let's face it, without it, manufacturers will mostly go bankrupt. Look in the late 90s, most manufacturers we know were closing down, because film cameras were no longer profitable to produce, lasting forever. Digital was a blessing for all those companies, so much so that they killed film because their survival depends on digital technology, and people upgrading their camers every couple of years. Now of course the gear race is caused by innovation and new models with new features popping every few months. Some that we need and some we don't. But let's face, advance is good. I used to think my A900 was the best camera ever made, but my lowly GXR beats it in IQ at every ISO, even base ISO. I have no problem using the GXR at ISO 3200 while the A900 couldn't be used above ISO 800. Not all innovation is good. I personally dislike the SLT technology for instance, and I'm horrified that DSLR are on the way of extinction. But even for the most traditional photographers like myself, there is always some IQ improvement in the next model that will make me want it, not features or gimmicks, but true IQ, like in the film days, we used to buy the latest most advanced film.

Bottom line, no one will be using the RX1 in 5 years, let alone 10



Sep 12, 2012 at 11:28 PM
sebboh
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p.35 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


rattymouse wrote:
It's not funny to me specifically. I shoot with a Fujifilm S5 Pro, which is 5+ years old, and now a GA645, which is 15+ years old. I have an X100, which is my newest camera at 2 years old.

I despise the gear race more than words can say. To me what is funny is people who run after gear, year after year after year.



i have to say i'm always amused by how quickly some people on this forum seem to burn through cameras and change systems every three months. i can understand it with mirrorless cameras though (but not dslrs) as they are just maturing and for many people the potential is there but just isn't quite realized yet.

i can certainly picture myself getting this and keeping it as my main camera for 5+ years assuming i'm comfortable with the ergonomics and lens. i'm not convinced modern electronic cameras (including leicas) can be relied upon to last much longer than 5 years. the shutter on my last camera wore out after a little less than two years (it certainly wasn't as high end though). 5 years ago i would look at my images and say there were things that things that i really was unhappy about with in the image quality and wanted to upgrade because of. for the past two years i haven't really had any strong desire for an improvement in image quality and don't really foresee that changing. if i get the itch to upgrade, it's because of size or ergonomic considerations.



Sep 12, 2012 at 11:31 PM
rattymouse
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p.35 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (Original 2012 thread)


edwardkaraa wrote:
Bottom line, no one will be using the RX1 in 5 years, let alone 10


I'd wager a fiver against that prediction.




Sep 12, 2012 at 11:38 PM
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