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Archive 2012 · How noisy is your 7D?

  
 
uz2work
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p.17 #1 · How noisy is your 7D?


n0b0 wrote:
What noise? All I see is some awesome trails of heatwave.

If I remember correctly, aren't you the guy who posted some pretty damn cool photos and videos of birds that nested in front of your house? My apology if I was wrong.


I could be wrong, but I think that Alek was being sarcastic, and, thus, the ;-).



Sep 05, 2012 at 09:46 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.17 #2 · How noisy is your 7D?


Alek Komarnits wrote:
Thanks for the kinda comments Romy ... having seen many of your spectacular pictures (especially the moon & birds), it means a lot coming from you. I was lucky to be in the right place in the right time ... and have the lions "pose" for me ... although it didn't last long.
alek

P.S. Speaking of 7D noise, can anyone clean up this ISO 400 image - the top of the building on the right is terrible... ;-)

http://www.komar.org/komar/k-krew/seattle-2012/2012_08_03-23_48_15-8098.jpg



Come on admit it. They are models hanging on strings and you've gone mad with the blur brush


Good work cloning out the strings and sticks by the way



Sep 05, 2012 at 09:50 AM
mco_970
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p.17 #3 · How noisy is your 7D?


uz2work wrote:
Unfortunately, unless others challenge the validity of what he is saying, those who are looking for information to help them with making decisions about their own equipment choices can be misled into believing that what he is saying might actually be true. While the 7D is not a perfect camera and while others can have reasonable and well-reasoned complaints about it, his thoughts about the camera are so extreme as to make it appear that it is not the excellent tool that it is.


Yeeaaaah, but I'm to the point of not having anything nice to say, so... 'Hide Me' saves me.

7D, ISO 1250, 400/5.6 @5.6, pre-dawn shot of fox kits playing. Tough conditions, but way fun shooting. I had 1D3 and 5D2 in the blind at this site, but 7D's reach made for better photos in these conditions. I didn't trust 5D2 w/ my 500 to focus as well as 7D (I had to use outer points for many shots). Let's just call this shot "Shut Yo Mouf !!".

http://www.redwrench.com/2012/7D/20120610-_MG_7454.jpg



Sep 05, 2012 at 11:06 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.17 #4 · How noisy is your 7D?


time2clmb wrote:
So after 16 pages we're all settled and agreed right?

On one side you have people that are either too lazy, don't want to bother, or have not yet bothered to learn how to shoot and expose and properly PP their 7D files. This is the group that does not like the 7D. This group will completely ignore any in your face evidence or advice that has been posted and are ready to nitpick apart photos at the 100% crop level regardless of how good they are at the image level.

On the other side you have the people that are learning
...Show more

The likelihood that we're all agreed is about the same as that the US will be agreed after our two political conventions Almost everyone reading this thread is trying to chase the last iota of perfection out of their photography, their hobby, artistry, or profession demands it. Everyone has different opinions on what an acceptable level of IQ is for their needs and we should be patient with that.

As I said in a previous post, the 7D's problem is that it is a mid-expense, "semi-pro" body that tends to get used in fairly extreme circumstances. Canon has used this APS C sensor in what, 5 different camera bodies over a fairly long product cycle. Their latest Rebel and EOS M bodies use a variant. The vast majority of folks using one of these cameras should be delighted at the level of quality they can achieve and would see little if any improvement if they used a 1DX. In fact, I'm sure that in skilled hands, even a 1DX can produce significant amounts of noise and produce poor IQ.

I appreciate and have learned a lot from the techniques shared on these threads to help me get the most out of my 7D and 100-400. I feel fairly confident that when I'm in the field I'll capture better images than I could with my 40D or by trading my 5D2 and 7D for a single 5D3. I might do better with a 1D4, 600 f4, and the gimbaled tripod it would require, but I can't afford it and it wouldn't fit the carry-on limits for the flight out to the Serengeti.

So:
expose to the right,
keep your shutter speed high,
take a short burst of frames,
get some insurance shots before you go for the gold,
keep your raw conversion NR and sharpening detail low,
do selective NR and sharpening later on in post,
and do a final image size reduction to match the 100% view you can live with.

That about sums it up.



Sep 05, 2012 at 11:16 AM
Liquidstone
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p.17 #5 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff Nolten wrote:
I appreciate and have learned a lot from the techniques shared on these threads to help me get the most out of my 7D and 100-400. I feel fairly confident that when I'm in the field I'll capture better images than I could with my 40D or by trading my 5D2 and 7D for a single 5D3. I might do better with a 1D4, 600 f4, and the gimbaled tripod it would require, but I can't afford it and it wouldn't fit the carry-on limits for the flight out to the Serengeti.

So:
expose to the right,
keep your shutter

That about sums it up.
...Show more

I think that's a simple yet complete summary of the info shared in this thread so far, Jeff.


Sep 05, 2012 at 04:51 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.17 #6 · How noisy is your 7D?


I find it interesting that even in spite of all the ISO > 800 shots that have been presented, some even with the raw available, that Mike still stands by his own results as being the basis for a global 7D generality. I have looked at his comparisons and samples on his photo gallery, and I am very confident he could have pulled better results had he pushed his exposure to the right (but moving up the ISO), and processing differently. There are more differences to 7D images based on software and exposure settings than due to variances in 7D hardware.

I would daresay that old dog didn't really do any new tricks but rearranged the same old tricks trying to get different results. And being an old dog myself, I earned the right to discuss old dogs and new tricks.

Also as this particular old dog gets older, and alzheimers kicks in, I will continue to be ignorant of the fact that my ISO > 800 shots are really subpar, even though I can print them as 20x30 posters that others enjoy!






Edited on Sep 05, 2012 at 06:53 PM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2012 at 05:18 PM
abqnmusa
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p.17 #7 · How noisy is your 7D?


I tried 3 different 7D's for at various times (mine and borrowed). All required far too much noise reduction work for images in less optimal lighting. It was a battle between noise reduction and loss of detail. In the end; just not worth all the effort in noise reduction.

I have good 7D shots but in the end it did not work for me.

Edited on Sep 05, 2012 at 05:50 PM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2012 at 05:26 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.17 #8 · How noisy is your 7D?


abqnmusa wrote:
I tried 3 different 7D's for at various times. All required far too much noise reduction work for images in less optimal lighting. It was a battle between noise reduction and loss of detail. In the end; just not worth all the effort in noise reduction.

I have good 7D shots but in the end it did not work for me.


Shoot to the right, and your battle with NR will greatly diminish. If you shoot in Av/Tv and keep your exposure around the 0 mark, you are undoubtedly actually getting results that are 1/2 to 2/3 underexposed. If you shoot to the right according to the histogram on the screen, you actually have 1-2 stops more headroom yet. I also have had 3 (or 4, I have forgotten at this point), and they all were just fine, if handled properly.

I can also say that those that are happy with the 7D results are those that have stuck it out. Over on other forums, it was a weekly occurrence where somebody "tried" a 7D for a week or so at a time and didn't like it. Those that stuck with it for a month or more and listened to others that were able to get good results ended up being happy with it. There are a minority that still were not happy, but then again, they seemed rather anal at the 100% pixel view too, and wouldn't acknowledge that viewing an 18mpx at 100% seems a bit silly for everyday shooting. There is a time for it, but not on every single shot.

Edited on Sep 05, 2012 at 05:32 PM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2012 at 05:29 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.17 #9 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff Nolten wrote:
So:
expose to the right,
keep your shutter speed high,
take a short burst of frames,
get some insurance shots before you go for the gold,
keep your raw conversion NR and sharpening detail low,
do selective NR and sharpening later on in post,
and do a final image size reduction to match the 100% view you can live with.



Those rules apply to any camera to varying degrees. My 7D workflow is the same as my other cameras, I just am more careful with exposure and shutter speed. You make it sound like preparing for brain surgery and that's it's some sort of voodoo magic.

BTW I rarely ever do the last step. If the shot is not worthy at 100%, unless it's of something very special it will get tossed, like I do with shots from my other cameras.



Sep 05, 2012 at 05:32 PM
Jeff
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p.17 #10 · How noisy is your 7D?


TeamSpeed wrote:
I can also say that those that are happy with the 7D results are those that have stuck it out. Over on other forums, it was a weekly occurrence where somebody "tried" a 7D for a week or so at a time and didn't like it. Those that stuck with it for a month or more and listened to others that were able to get good results ended up being happy with it. There are a minority that still were not happy, but then again, they seemed rather anal at the 100% pixel view too, and wouldn't acknowledge that viewing
...Show more

It appears to me, based upon the incredible level of redundancy and pontification throughout this this thread, that those who are 'length-limited' are the primary audience that had the intestinal fortitude to learn the various methods of jumping through the post-processing hoops that the 7D requires. Very few WA images were presented as any sort of evidence on either side, highlighting the fact that many people use the 7D as either an expensive TC or a cheap 600/4.

The 7D certainly has its place in Canon's lineup, and there are some useful PP tidbits contained in this thread, well-mixed in, in between repeatedly calling a set of users out for being inept at using 'the tool'. It's clear that some people aren't fond of the 7D's file quality, and that should be OK. Really, it should.

This thread has certainly run its course (and then some), and deserves a dirt nap by Fred.

Regards,

Jeff



Sep 05, 2012 at 09:03 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.17 #11 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff wrote:
It appears to me, based upon the incredible level of redundancy and pontification throughout this this thread, that those who are 'length-limited' are the primary audience that had the intestinal fortitude to learn the various methods of jumping through the post-processing hoops that the 7D requires. Very few WA images were presented as any sort of evidence on either side, highlighting the fact that many people use the 7D as either an expensive TC or a cheap 600/4.

The 7D certainly has its place in Canon's lineup, and there are some useful PP tidbits contained in this thread, well-mixed in, in
...Show more

I really don't want to lock this thread as it's very informative for the most part. I deleted a few posts instead.



Sep 05, 2012 at 09:15 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.17 #12 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff wrote:
It appears to me, based upon the incredible level of redundancy and pontification throughout this this thread, that those who are 'length-limited' are the primary audience that had the intestinal fortitude to learn the various methods of jumping through the post-processing hoops that the 7D requires. Very few WA images were presented as any sort of evidence on either side, highlighting the fact that many people use the 7D as either an expensive TC or a cheap 600/4.

The 7D certainly has its place in Canon's lineup, and there are some useful PP tidbits contained in this thread, well-mixed in, in
...Show more

There are really no hoops to jump through, that is what is so strange with some of the replies. The same things you would do with a 1D or a 5D or a 30D apply to the 7D.

1) Don't underexpose, and then digitally pull up the levels, either through curves, brightness, etc, because that is just fake exposure and just exposes the noise making it worse. Some cameras are worse than others, the 7D being at the worst end perhaps, but still a sound rule to follow. If we all had an Exmor sensor, then perhaps the rules are a bit different, but alas we have the same basic Canon sensor that they keep tweaking but never really completely redesign it so that you can pull up shadows without banding, or enhancing noise, etc.

2) Said otherwise, shoot to the right, put most of your data of your image into the upper part of the histogram. Pulling down an image produces better results than pulling up results in most cases.

3) Don't sharpen the raw data, either through ACR, DPP, in-camera, etc, shoot at lower sharpening values

4) Remove the noise judiciously, again not unique to the 7D.

5) Sharpen using your favorite method, my new favorite is high pass.

6) Set contrast, hue, saturation, etc.

#4, 5, and 6 can all be placed into a single action, and run in batch against all the images you drop into a folder, no real hoops at all. Just watch how you shoot, using some guidelines laid out, then run an action on the resulting images. I don't see this as hoops, because I do this same type of activity on ALL images from any camera, 5D2, 5D, 1D3, etc. The level or magnitude of values used in these steps may be different from body to body however.

The only thing that has run its course here is indeed the fact that there are some that don't like the 7D results, however, a subset of those individuals go out and advertise to all that the entire 7D model line is to blame, and just maybe, it is how they used the 7D and how they processed the images and the tools they used to process. It is reasonable considering there are others that have produced wonderful results in all kinds of situations. If a large set of users can produce images that are high quality at ISOs > 800, then it is impossible that the 7D model line is deficient as a generality, and people vary more than the hardware would vary, explaining these results.

Where this thread headed (and seems to keep getting sidetracked by a few individuals) is toward a very good goal of helping those that aren't completely happy with the 7D results, by sharing images, throwing out ideas on what to change, how to shoot, etc. Those same individuals can then make an educated decision on whether the 7D really is or isn't for them after trying all the techniques explained by those that have worked through the workflow.



Sep 05, 2012 at 09:25 PM
Alek Komarnits
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p.17 #13 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff wrote:
It appears to me, based upon the incredible level of redundancy and pontification throughout this this thread, that those who are 'length-limited' are the primary audience that had the intestinal fortitude to learn the various methods of jumping through the post-processing hoops that the 7D requires. Very few WA images were presented as any sort of evidence on either side, highlighting the fact that many people use the 7D as either an expensive TC or a cheap 600/4.


Actually, when the 7D is coupled with the 10-22, it makes a fun little UWA IMHO ... a few pictures below from this trip ... ;-)
alek








Sep 05, 2012 at 09:54 PM
BluesWest
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p.17 #14 · How noisy is your 7D?


If a large set of users can produce images that are high quality at ISOs > 800, then it is impossible that the 7D model line is deficient as a generality, and people vary more than the hardware would vary, explaining these results.

Spot on -- could not have said it better.

Now, can a moderator lock this thread please?

Or, better yet, just delete it completely?

John



Sep 05, 2012 at 10:18 PM
PetKal
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p.17 #15 · How noisy is your 7D?


It's too bad and sad about the way this thread has evolved , since I believe Romy started it with good intentions, and there is also some good stuff in here as well.

I have developed a few little decision rules for when I might use 7D as opposed to one of the other 1D cameras I own. The issue of camere size and weight is a rather obvious one.......sometimes, particularly when travelling or doing candids, I like to carry as well as shoot with a smaller camera.
However, there are more factors which may lead to 7D deployment:

(1) Target/motion not challenging re AF...effectively stationary and close targets.
(2) No need to go over ISO 800.
(3) Not likely to have to crop large, say beyond 50 %.
(4) I wanna retain good detail even at 50% crop enlargement.

When used within that sort of channelled application type, I've had some good results from 7D, and I didn't have to do anything differently in post processing than with any other dSLR.

In a nutshell, I do not use 7D at ISO 1600 and over even when a minor crop is involved. And the more I need to crop, the lower the ISO value at which I will still allow myself to use 7D. The IQ test of my images I do at 100% crop...no compromise there.

Here is a recent example done with handheld 500 f/4 and at ISO 400, crop enlarged by something like 40%. In this image I believe I have tapped into the 7D strengths and avoided its weaknesses. Alas, it doesn't always work like that, i.e., as intended.

Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 06:43 AM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2012 at 10:56 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.17 #16 · How noisy is your 7D?


Nice shot!


Sep 05, 2012 at 10:58 PM
PetKal
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p.17 #17 · How noisy is your 7D?


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Nice shot!


Thanx Pixie. It is somewhat ironic that I get the best IQ out of 7D in shots with relative proximity to target (assuming low and moderate ISO values). The depth of detail that 7D generates in those conditions is peerless. However, I haven't had much success with it on long range shots even at low ISO values. The primary problem was inconsistent and sloppy AF, such as missing a bird and focusing on a branch behind it. That trend was so clear cut, that I had to drop 7D from long range shooting applications altogether.



Sep 05, 2012 at 11:41 PM
Liquidstone
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p.17 #18 · How noisy is your 7D?


TeamSpeed wrote:
Where this thread headed (and seems to keep getting sidetracked by a few individuals) is toward a very good goal of helping those that aren't completely happy with the 7D results, by sharing images, throwing out ideas on what to change, how to shoot, etc. Those same individuals can then make an educated decision on whether the 7D really is or isn't for them after trying all the techniques explained by those that have worked through the workflow.


+1.

Very well said, TS.



Sep 06, 2012 at 12:07 AM
Liquidstone
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p.17 #19 · How noisy is your 7D?


PetKal wrote:
.... It is somewhat ironic that I get the best IQ out of 7D in shots with relative proximity to target (assuming low and moderate ISO values). The depth of detail that 7D generates in those conditions is peerless. However, I haven't had much success with it on long range shots even at low ISO values. The primary problem was inconsistent and sloppy AF, such as missing a bird and focusing on a branch behind it. That trend was so clear cut, that I had to drop 7D from long range shooting applications altogether.



Excellent shot Peter, wish we have that bird species here!

My primary use of the 7D is for maximum reach - long shots, macros or even close shots of small birds. Too bad the AF of yours didn't make you happy.




Sep 06, 2012 at 12:12 AM
PetKal
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p.17 #20 · How noisy is your 7D?


Thank you, pareng Romy.
One benefit of having diverse gears is that one has the ability to switch and compare, and then pursue those equipment options which yield optimum results for them.
As an example, I can do BIF photography with 800L as well, but the sheer physical strain of it is out of proportion to the results. On the other hand, I have several lenses which are not only more effective for handheld BIF shooting, but they also do not wreck my arms, shoulders and back.



Sep 06, 2012 at 06:43 AM
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