wfrank wrote:
While I agree it's different (ergo for Canon's various series) I wouldnt say it's bad at low end. If you'd care to learn you can for sure handle those cams quickly. Playing around for 5 minutes w/o understanding where to find things doesnt count.
It actually does count because when experienced photographers with over 70 or so years of combined experience with all softs of camera and photo equipment can't even make simple adjustments, it points to an obvious issue with intuitive control adjustments being a major FAIL on Canon's part. Sure, If I owned the camera myself - Canon loaned the camera to my friend for publicity/ marketing reasons due to her reputation - I would have studied the controls before using it, but that's really not the point when it comes to INTUITIVE camera design ergonomics.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
It actually does count because when experienced photographers with over 70 or so years of combined experience with all softs of camera and photo equipment can't even make simple adjustments, it points to an obvious issue with intuitive control adjustments being a major FAIL on Canon's part. Sure, If I owned the camera myself - Canon loaned the camera to my friend for publicity/ marketing reasons due to her reputation - I would have studied the controls before using it, but that's really not the point when it comes to INTUITIVE camera design ergonomics.
Well, INTUITIVE to you may not be the same for me or Steve Jobs. Or a 15 yr old kid coming from a completely different set of experience than an 50yr+ press photographer as an example. I'm pretty sure who Canon (/Nikon/Sony) would prioritize when designing an entry level cam. None of them are perfect for sure, but any new cam release are bound to get criticized. Especially from people in a forum like this (incl myself).
Well, it wasn't a Rebel, which I'm betting is pretty simple but I would strongly disagree that there are not certain design rules based around almost universal ergonomic principles considered "intuitive" and even instinctual with regard to how things work and are operated, including cameras! As just one example, I would suggest some of the crazy and inconsistent methods Exp. Compensation must be activated on some Canon DSLR's is rather unintuitive vs how that is accomplished on most Nikon's (something as obvious as a direct button!, which pretty much any photographer, even one that has never used a Nikon could figure out instantly).
"And please no holy war - just your real life experience and facts."
Hoping we can keep the brand bashing rhetoric down and also less talk about user interface/menu and ergonomic issues which are highly personal.
Of course a higher MP camera like the D800 requires more careful shooting, like twice the focal length for shutter speed, and careful focusing, probably using LV for wide angles or narrow DOF shots but there is extra detail and better IQ which is not shown in tiny web size images but can be seen in large prints or at 100% pixel peeping with images which contain lots of fine detail like landscape shots. The sensors better DR and cleaner shadows are easily evident vs. Canon's current sensors.
I would like to see a NEX 5n/7 shot with a 21mm Equiv small lens compare to a D800 with the ZF 21.
Good luck!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Well, it wasn't a Rebel, which I'm betting is pretty simple but I would strongly disagree that there are not certain design rules based around almost universal ergonomic principles considered "intuitive" and even instinctual with regard to how things work and are operated, including cameras! As just one example, I would suggest some of the crazy and inconsistent methods Exp. Compensation must be activated on some Canon DSLR's is rather unintuitive vs how that is accomplished on most Nikon's (something as obvious as a direct button!, which pretty much any photographer, even one that has never used a Nikon could figure out instantly)....Show more →
Nah, that cant be a good example. On Canons such as 60D, 7D or 5D2 etc, the exp.comp is defaulted on the back wheel. It's been like that for ages. To call that UI's "major fail" is just plain silly. Adjustment does not involve any extra button press anywhere, and anyone truly interested in UI's would know the meaning of one click less.
A bit of research is good before jumping to conclusions.
I guess I triggered this, but let me just clarify: I am not saying that one of these four (or more?) Canon layouts is not the best in the world, I am only saying that Canon doesn't appear to know either. If they were certain about their layout, they would all be much more similar. Nikon *is* certain of their layout, and their bodies are much more similar than Canon's. That doesn't mean it is the best layout in the world though, but I do personally prefer it, a question of taste.
wfrank wrote:
Nah, that cant be a good example. On Canons such as 60D, 7D or 5D2 etc, the exp.comp is defaulted on the back wheel. It's been like that for ages. To call that UI's "major fail" is just plain silly. Adjustment does not involve any extra button press anywhere, and anyone truly interested in UI's would know the meaning of one click less.
A bit of research is good before jumping to conclusions.
Yet, on my 5D classic - when I owned it - one could move the on/ off button to another position and then adjust the exp. compensation. That was not the case for the 60D at all. So, yes, more research before YOU jump to conclusions. There is inconsistency there. It also appears with certain Canon's that it would be quite easy to half press the shutter button and accidentally turn the control wheel, thereby engaging exp. compensation. Anyway, I suspect a specific labeled button to engage is more intuitive as either of the above methods used by Canon would never be obvious to a user who had never used them before but a labeled button ala Nikon requires no new language to learn. Really though, I guess it doesn't matter in the end, once one gets used to a system (Nikon) or a particular Canon body. I have used both systems for quite a while and both can obviously produce great results. But I think Nikon's control layout is certainly more consistent.
Yeah right (actually). In the end what you're used to that counts, not a super subjective proclamation of a major fail or whatever it was. And contrary to you, to me Nikon cameras are in Greek so I'd need to learn that before using them. But I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with one, at least now when the 12MP barrier is (so very) clearly breached.
I prefer an efficient interface 24/7 rather than one that needs a separate button for just about everything requiring extra clicks and space. If I were to pick a super sucky interface with massive potential to improve, it would be the Sony NEX 5N. But I got (almost) used even to that thanks to a couple of (unmarked) programmable buttons in weird places prone to accidental pushes.
Talk about inconsistency. Now, that's not a DSLR but I'm sure you can find an oddball preferring that over (what I assume is) a super efficient image machine such as the D800. Or a 5D2/3.
wfrank wrote:
I prefer an efficient interface 24/7 rather than one that needs a separate button for just about everything requiring extra clicks and space.
I would say that often this is the same thing. For example, on the 5D/5DII, there are these buttons near the shutter release which have two meanings, one associated with each wheel. I would always mix up the directions of the ones I didn't use so often. A single-use button avoids that, and I was more efficient with the Nikon from day 1. This lesson is not lost on Canon either, but they applied it only to the 1D series bodies.
